and elements to the russian population in russia. leadership, there may well be some differences, but i don't see this conflict as having to do with that. i see this primarily as really, frankly, a proxy war on russia's border that is being pursued by the u. s. and the neo powers mm ah, moved to no one. no, no, no. hon. who are job? no, no. well door more real than what they should end up unit 73. 1 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had ever known.

and grill. oh, you know, to production. i guess you or she'll book a dinner. good, good. good on, you saw new rochelle he one more mom, you know, martha, this is me. new again from omar and i've, i've been there and i got the owner myself. i got ya. i got on monday. i wish enough about julie whole new. he didn't or gotten more or less than a jr. let's i had to put the sco their mother on all our buddy bill could you could help us out. oh boy, that's good to go on. what on the wow, she my a new id. i'm oh, i can send more or said mom good. so you don't the year you're not allowed to think

about it. i got a with hello and welcome to soc where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. does the landscape regime is made it clear it is not interested in any negotiations with russia to end the military conflict. this should not surprise anyone. after all, this has been the position of the by did administration all along. the collective west is intent on supporting this conflict until the last ukranian may be until there is no ukraine left. the cross sucking diplomat. excuse me, i'm joined by my guess,

larry johnson in tampa. he is a managing partner in burg, associates and a former c. i a analyst and us state department counterterrorism official and how we have oliver boyd barrett. he is a professor emeritus of journalism and public relations at bowling green state university as well as author of brush gate and propaganda. and in corpus christi, we have micro flannigan, he is president flannigan consulting and a former congressman or a gentleman, cross talk rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want and i always appreciate it. let me go to larry 1st in tampa, who survived. and i'm glad you have, have you on this week, you couldn't last week for obvious reasons. larry, what do you make of zalinski? so i need decrease. there's no negotiations, at least not with this current russian president. and of course, as i said in my introduction, this is an echo of what the by the ministration is supported all along. so i will invoke that more unnamed burrell, the foreign policy cheaper, the u. this will be cited on the battlefield. i guess that's pretty clear, huh. go ahead, larry. but there are the final propaganda pushes under way. zelinski certainly

is doubling down on a very bad hand. despite all of the hoopla, the propaganda going on in the west about the great victories of ukraine and how russia, the tree prudence, on the verge of collapse, it's going to happen in a minute. now all we gotta do is hold on. and yet, the reality is something else and the, the bottom line fact is ukraine does not have the ability to sustain itself on the battlefield without continued supplies coming from the united states and nato, and the ability of the united states and nato to continue those supplies. is we're city, it's not increasing the, the kinds of actual weapons that the united states consent and that the europeans consent is this, not the top of the lines, material tanks, planes. it's the 2nd hand stuff. and on top of that,

the ammunition supplies that the west has just to provide can are being depleted and they do not have the industrial base. they once had that this is not the world war 2 united states to could really crank up and produce stuff. so the once he's in trouble, it's just the world hasn't caught up to it yet. you know, michael with the, the, the sabotage of the nord stream pipelines. again, that's kind of taking a piece off the chessboard because that was something very important for the russians. and for particularly the germans, but europe in general here, i think we all know who did it, but i'm not, i don't wanna waste time talking about that. but the fact of the matter is, is that, that was some that was a form of interaction. that was very important for both parties that's been taken off the board. because there's, there's been talk that was a talk for weeks that the germans were interested in coming to some kind of understanding with the russians. somebody else decided, no,

there's going to be no understanding your thoughts. i think you've summed it up absolutely correctly. there's going to be no solution if left to gloria noonan newland and the other geniuses at foggy bottom. and at the n, a say they're the thought leaders of this nightmare. and it won't. and as i say from the outset, putin should not have invaded, he should have not left his own borders. but having dealing with that reality, we need to come to peace and to come to peace. you have to have the parties come to the table. so if you're going to have some ridiculous, the only thing we'll accept is unconditional. surrender like it in the 2nd world war. will you better be in a position to win the war? well, you know, what's zalinski is not, and he's just not going to happen. it's laughable to imagine that ukraine could win this war. and the fact that we continue to live in the west in a, in a. ready in immediate circus that drives this narrative, it confuses me deeply because there is no way to grind this downs. when when

minority in water, it takes the more brutal that will be at mit michael, you can escalate up. i agree with you there. would there a way, there were ways that maybe a ray of hope that it could happen now? i tend to doubt it, but you can escalate to let. let me go to oliver in ohio is that this is what i worry about because i've learned a lot from larry johnson, our guest in our program. i did a podcast on my, on the gaggle with george samuel ali, which, you know, is how much longer length. but, you know, what worries me is that the, the west doesn't have the conventional capacity to maintain this war. and so there's the next step. and that's the big step. ok. and we hear all of this talk about a, using the technical you nuclear weapons. that's not the russian saying at this. it's an insinuation on from the west because they don't have the conventional capacity to say in a conflict against russia. oliver go ahead. you know, this issue

a conventional capacity is kind of important because although they do seem to have run out of their stocks for their own defense purposes, let alone for the defense of ukraine. they are, or a $1000000000.00 more and 2 orders for future deliveries of, of hardware. and those orders will eventually be met to the great profitability of the western arms manufacturers who the who seem to be the primary beneficiaries of this war or by the way. and but by my thinking is that at some point there's new orders for webinar. we do have to start running in, but i'm not sure how many months it takes and i dare say it takes different periods of time according to what categories of weaponry we are talking about. i'm thinking the winter. this is a very, very dangerous time for the,

for the west because of the situation in the battle field was despite the misleading optics or keith s on that the, this is not a good time for the worse and we're entering awesome. where entering winter is going to be very difficult for either side to launch major offenses. well, i think we but oliver, when it's, it's the rainy season where i am right now to say it's rainy season in ukraine. russia has a very good history of fighting in the winter of stalingrad, the defense of berlin. it winters, not a big problem. hard ground is good. ok, larry, i well, you know, one of the things that really bothers me about a lot of the commentary on the complex is that we have to look at it in a very broadly what russia is doing now in we will. it wants to avoid having to have to do it in again, in 5 years or 10 years, or 15 years, they want

a definitive outcome for their security needs. we so much commentary about this overlooks that go ahead larry. well, i think part of the problem is the wes looks entirely as a football game that who's, who's scored a point who's, who's allowed a goal. and they forget the cost of what's dictate that that war is just an extension of politics. and you've got to look at the broader politics, and that's where i think the russians clearly have the advantage here and we saw it on, i don't know, i can't recall if it was tuesday or wednesday of this week. but when opec plus turns around and says, hey, we're going to reduce the production of oil at the very time that washington and europe are begging for lower oil prices and more oil. now if, if saudi arabia and the rest of the opec nations nigeria thought that russia was

just getting clobbered and was on the verge of collapse, is in the same person saying that those countries would align themselves with a guaranteed loser. absolutely not. 3rd, not crazy. so the people need to take into account the politics of this, which also gets into the economics. and so from that standpoint, that what's happening militarily on the ground, i don't want to minimize it, but it's a bit of a side show. and it's, yeah, it's the, it's the drama, the west needs or is a sit com mentality. that's such a good point because michael, i think that, you know, when we look at here we are, we're in october in winter is beginning to start. i think we're going to have very different conversation, echoing with larry just said, they're not about the battlefield, but the condition of europe's economy and my extension the united states go ahead. michael and corpus kristie. yeah, i think the general kudos offset it, but general winter is on its way. the russians do very well in the winter. the west

is not and zalinski isn't doing very well anywhere i put in laid out several months ago. 5 points for a point where we can stop fighting and discuss the permanent relinquishment of the crimea of promise not to go into nato and several other things. those go posts moved as russia has paid a price on the ground and has captured the don bastard virtually all of it. and now has other designs. i'm guessing because that once he drags this out, so the russian view is to ratchet up the pain and bring come to the table. and let's have it done with this. and the pain will continue to be wretched it up by the russians because they can afford to do it. they have the capacity to do it. and so i think the battle is something a little more than a side show, although it is subordinate to the. ready political discussion to be sure, but i think it's the method by which guten is trying to bring this to an end and move on to talks. and so they,

we shuffled into carfagna wheat and we got pushed out. we'll go back and i think they will odessa looms large in the winter if there's a winter offensive and i'm sure there will be on the the problems for ukraine are insurmountable. the longer they drag this out in a political sense as well. ready as a military one, they would do well to come to the table now. i don't think they can. i don't think gloria knew, and i don't think my, my, my dear friend came into congress with senator graham is going to let them do these things. i think are there, as, as you said, of the i said they're going to fight to the last few. i might, michael, that may be watching and i'm agreeing with you. but that means they don't really care much about ukraine. right? kind a true. they, both of them are care, far more about hurting russia than they do about protecting ukraine. that is a fact well and, and also the, the, the, the derivative of that is that what kind of economic damage will be lasting damage because trade ties will change. and people's the say, well,

i'm going to say what the russians are going to stick with the chinese because the europeans don't know. they don't, don't even how to protect their own interests. there are gentlemen, we're going to go to what shall break and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on diplomatic fielding. stay with with look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, accept where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point obviously is to create trust rather than fear like to take on various char with artificial intelligence, real summoning with

a robot most protective phone existence with a mouse another. why you why do you easy, while furnace us? ah, yeah. do you live yet? if south yeah, rush a zigler community. stephanie doc. awesome. boys. now watch. done for me at the double up. i peter, is emily apple's video from sure. let me just kim's room. she thought did you say

the y fi, ela, a? yes. my thought or jan in the against the or did fortune very up my be a lot about this morning after search financial news with ah, welcome back across like where all things are considered on peter. let's remind you . we're discussing diplomatic sale. me

okay. go back to oliver oliver, going back to the, in the sabotage of the pipelines. it says, you know, 2 things stand out of my mind. number one, obviously whoever did this wanted to cut that economic energy relationship, but it may, at the end of the day cripple germany, certainly not russia. this is an annoyance. for russia. they might rebuild it. my might repair it, but if someone's going to blow it up again, then why do it ok? and number 2, that kind of civilian infrastructure i guess is on the table. there are other pipelines in the baltic. i just think who did this with thinking in very short term as if it white make some kind of dramatic difference. it doesn't, it may, it may in the short medium run and that will be germany in the european economy. go ahead. all. yeah. well, i'm sure that it's a short term peter,

it may actually be quite a long term and a worrying weight, which is to say the, you know, where, where we to make the presumption of the united states has had a hand in the sabotage. the course is going to be an investigation into this. it will be an investigation that to which russia will not be invited. shades of m. h 17 shenanigans in 2014. but i think the long term game is for the united states, both to, to, to crush europe and to crush russia simultaneously. that, that, that is the game. and at the same time, to make it impossible for europe and russia to collaborate, that will have the effect of consolidating rushes, pivot to the asian. it will have the effect of greatly solidifying and

strengthening the asian chinese asian alliances. it will have the effect of whether the united states wants it or not, of ushering, ushering in the multi polar. whoa. um, so frightened, so terrified the washington leads that the saddest part of well are so many set parts of the story and the suffering of the ukrainian old ukrainian people is one of those. but another very, very sad elements. this story is the crushing of europe. yeah. and in particular, the crushing you're just except the germans don't seem to realize yet what is happening to them. i think i can only assume that they are so integrated into a power structure that is dominated by the united states. that they don't see that they have korea possibilities anywhere else other than to be owns. yeah. yeah, but i, i just think they've, they're just obsessed with there's neo liberal ideology. they can't break out of it

. i mean it for it, it, they, they can't see reality for what it is because they're ideologically blind. let larry look, let's talk about that because i think we're all in agreement. the prize and all this is continued american hegemony over europe. ok. the check that box, but the europe, the prize of europe is a very modern, high productivity economy. i mean, without cheaper energy, you don't have the, i think you go pre industrial. i mean, i, i don't know what europe is going to be maybe a destination for tourists from india and china to see what people used to live like because the price is worthless. if it isn't, it isn't high. high productivity. larry, i posted an open thread on my blog the other day, asking people, what's your economic situation? i have a remarkable readership. i mean, people from around the world. i got comments from a lot from europe, asia, africa,

australia, canada. we're in a global economic crisis and what's coming out of europe is particularly disturbing in terms of across the board. these, the people that were commenting were saying, look, my bills have double, they've tripled people that have been, ex pats are now selling their property and they're leaving europe. try to come back to the united states because it's so bad. so the, the reality for the people, for the civilians, the populace, it is on a grand scale. this is a little bit like that moment in the french revolution, where marie antoinette was saying, let them be k, because the leadership is so out of touch with what's going on with the average citizen, the business people that are trying to keep bakeries open are heavens even with toilet paper producers in germany having to declare bankruptcy. one of the necessities of life, if you're well, so their failure to come to grasp the,

to come to grips with the economic consequences of this policy towards russia. underscores the fact that or they're not thinking about this in terms of a comprehensive strategy to win a war or they're focused only upon how can we are russia. yeah. but yeah, but that's not, that's not in any one security interest in the long run. again, that's why i keep saying we have to take steps back here because what about the european security architecture? we need to talk about that. ok, i mean, you know, it can be, is much looser foby as you want, but there's still here, neighbor, you can't do anything about that. let me, let me go to michael. michael, you know there's, there's energy cap on russian energy, which of course is kind of unicorn stuff in my mind. i still don't really understand it. i don't think anybody really does. but i mean, let's flip the, the, the script here will be a cap on high priced, ellen g from the united states. is anybody talking about tapping that?

because there are the, i mean, this is obviously a looking for disease market. this energy market. the americans want it, they want to deny the russian so. ok, but in the middle in europe, i mean the, what they're going to be charge is going to be again, their productivity will fail. michael, after the 2nd world war, when europe was in ashes of the united states, owned about half the world's gps, or yep, 12550000000 people own half the world's g d p. today we own a little less than a quarter and it's going down. but the people making decisions for our economic future, our military future are had gemini in europe, which i believe is ebbing quickly, still live in a world. ready we call the shots, we absolutely do not any more and we need to come to understand that. and i don't think newland or biden, or the 30 something nameless, faceless. ready children who run the white house have

a clue what they're doing. the future of this country of the united states is going to be increasingly entered, dependent on an economically vibrant globe. however much it's being harm now. and you know that it has been said here that they are in pain. net is a fact, but we will share that pain shortly. and it's coming and it's going, it's inexorable. inflation is going to be the smallest problem we've got coming shortly. you know, it used to be the united states catches a cold in the world, gets pneumonia. it's going to be the. ready way around and are come up and says, coming quickly here, we don't have the economic power we did even 30 years ago. and we continued to manage a foreign policy that pretends that we do well then also what they did. there's one thing that the u. s. has enormous amounts of debt. oh, so did the europeans, enormous amount of debt. here oliver, one of the interesting things of all this is that the global south is, is turned its back on this whole affair. this is a,

between the europeans and the russians. don't drag us into it, you know why? mostly because you don't have a solution to end it. why should i back here cause if there is no ending to this. ok. and the in the global south is as staying on the sidelines. that's very significant in light of what michael just said. go ahead, oliver. yes, absolutely. we see some science that africa countries like molly keener fossil and some others in central africa are turning away from one of the e. s p as in favor of the russian. and so that, that is a very interesting kind of just going to quickly go back to the issue of the l and g. lincoln said quite recently the, the sabotage of the nose ring. one or 2 lions was a wonderful opportunity for the, for the united states. actually he's wrong because the united states is not producing enough energy to service the european markets.

it's facing steep gasoline prices arises and gasoline prices here in the united states. so it needs as much gas for its own population as possible. and also the, the sale revolution of the past 10 to 20 years is now drawing to an end. there will be a diminution of shale oil and gas supplies in the united states. this isn't dwindling. resource and the idea that the united states believes that there's a future in selling l and g to the united states as i to, to europe and, and europe. there's not going to be bailed out either by the mythology of us alan g, even steepest possible price control. well clearly clearly,

and none of these people thought any of this are, you know, larry and what are future historians are going to think about this. i mean, this is all self inflicted, these are craving choices. these none of this should be happening larry. some airy parallels if you will, with the 1st world war. because when you look back at the health, the world got drug in europe in particular was drug in to a completely unnecessary, massive slaughter. there are the historians will look back at this period and see a complete failure of leadership across the board. an unnecessary provocation of russia and refusal to negotiate and, and then the end it will, this is going to lead to, unfortunately widespread pain. i think death, destruction, i don't mean to be a doom say or but it just or the future is dark and what we're looking at because

the leaders refusing to stand up and try to be reasonable adults. you know, michael, i think when all is said and done, what's going to be left of ukraine? you can call it been debtors then. ok. because that's all that's going to be lab. the longer this goes on, the smaller ukraine gets last 25 seconds. go to you, my friend. thank you sir. i think you're absolutely correct. put in is trying to wrap up the pain and saying, anytime you want to talk, we're ready to talk and stop this. and what is the one key say to the desk. we'll fight to that. what do you, are you insane? it will never stop until the russians when that's when it's fast. well, let it up. now michael, i'm sure lindsey has got a plane on the tarmac with all the money in it and just pull the afghan president variant and just leave the country. ok. or he'll end up in a ditch one way or another. it's going to end as all the time we have gentlemen many thanks them i guess in tampa. oh. and hold corpus christi and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our dc you next time remember prospect rolls

the ah, i don't see this conflict as being one over values. that's not to say that there might not be differences in values between elements of the us population or elements of the u. s. leadership and elements of the russian population in russia. leadership, there may well be some differences, but i don't see this conflict as having to do with that. i see this primarily as really, frankly, a proxy war on russia's border that is being pursued by the u. s. and the neo powers. mm a

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