about a new world war, maybe time has come to have another go at that agreement. but this news i will check out all t dot com for international news and will be back at the top of the hour. ah, ah ah. hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i'm funeral about 1st it was the north stream pipelines. now the bridge connecting crimea to the russian mainland. both have been sabotaged. both can be considered terrorist attacks on infrastructure. there can be no doubt moscow will react, but how and against whom i

discussed these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess here in moscow. maxine susco, he's the director of the center of advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations. and we have to meet bobby, she is a political analyst editor and you know me, internet media project are generally across top roles. in fact, i mean you can jump anytime you want and i would appreciate okay, much so kind of put this all together because, you know, we have 2 major sabotage. we have the north stream pipelines and then we have the bridge connecting crimea to the russian mainland. these are infrastructure projects, civilian infrastructure. though, obviously everything can be dual purpose. these days, we still haven't seen a major direct reaction from moscow. i think there's a tendency here in moscow is for a strong reaction. but you know, there's, there's

a big difference between scoring points and achieving goals. and i think that's the, the dilemma that the russian side is looking at this. all of this obviously, to one degree another at the behest of the united states, tony blink and saying this is a tremendous opportunity when it comes to the pipelines and then we had ranks. of course, the minutes after it was reported that the bridge been attacked. thank you, usa so we can connect those dots. so none of us are going to make any a bit of decisions because we're not in a position to do so. so your thoughts on how this is going mass with, i think on both of the attacks are important in 3 ways. one is see symbolic attack in the sense that, you know, especially the of the attack on the crimean bridge is supposed to happen. i think was it was, it was a plot it to happen on hooton's birthday and then we,

we've seen reports to something went wrong and it took place the day after that, you know, the, the in case of the north tree, of course it's, it's a, it's a symbolic attack on, you know, to stop as american officials put it depends european dependency on the russian guess. it's also the 2nd thing, it's an attack on the symbol. both the crimean bridge and the north trim have been a symbol of russian power, energy, power, geopolitical power. and the, you know, bombing them was an important act of sabotage or act of terrorism. i wouldn't, you know, perhaps go as far as suggesting that's exactly what it looks like. and finally, it's, it's, it's a 3rd way it's, it's a, an attack on an important security chord. you know, this, the premium bridge is an important logistics route for the russian troops. defending primary care song and that is important in the wake of the plan you print

encounter offensive on that region. and, you know, the north stream is an important element in the russian energy security. and most importantly perhaps our viewers european energy security. and so it's not the software that mostly the europeans will end up with the ultimate losers here. so, you know, as they used to say back in the day we produce who's, who's gaining from all of that, who's getting from all this is set up perfectly for you. wow. i think that basically with a beach is mostly psychological because they're a rude connection. reestablish the just hours after the explosion that you know, the small stuff have been passing since evening, you know, since evening or saturday or take drugs be carried by fairies. but in general,

it's not one of these great for a long time. so that damages want to say, go, i want to look at that in a broader perspective. i want the article in foreign policy. why even wrote a defeat would be america problem. and there is a now, in this article would profit. let me go to stephen walk. the ukrainian victory was strapped on the same political course united states that could use the counterproductive excesses of the unit for iraq. i'm a conservative and b liberal procedures will grow. i mean, find that in order to success, studios, or fame and the quote that i think is nonsense because you're going to, people are not going to write a, you know, be technically technically unable to get the best that they could get, you know,

in case it most team to and austin, of on state impact. right. so these find this one is i got a logical and the ultimate benefit are people i want to profit from it. i don't know can sure. cindy broke receipt is they, i use ingredients in the same way they use syrian rebels in 2011, 2000. wow. this is not my thought, i read it the review and i agree with it. so we know that these forces are destructive and when americans and europeans are asking the question, why is it that china india, lots of african countries, the middle east? why are they so reluctant to condemn russia? well, precisely because the big just in case of this, so you bring in big 3, will be the know can sure. and the broker say this will destroy them,

you destroy are correct. and there's, there's a particularly when it comes to the bridge max, we have to say the obvious in this is what made a lot of people here very angry at russian territory. i mean, is that it's happened once, is a going to happen again. i mean, and i think all of us are in agreement that you know, we'll never know what happened in nor stream it usually happens. ok, we think because that would be the investigation of the powers that be the noun will never be held accountable. but i mean, this is begging a reaction and it seems to me, and this is my own only opinion, is it, this is like, particularly with the attack on the bridge, it's a fundraising event to show you know, the ukrainians are taking the initiative the, the, that the russians are on the back foot. it's a way to keep ukraine top of mind. ok, because i have no illusions about the outcome of this conflict. ukraine will be

destroyed. ok, the utterly destroyed it. just how that happens. so i'm sorry to be so cynical, but you know, it, you know, ukraine was top of the headlines again because the attack on the ridge is already been pointed on this program. it's already operating hours afterwards. your thoughts mass? well, i think. busy you know, as, as is important or whatever, you're training an official, some policy makers think and take action or stance. the secondary here and i think for more rational policy makers is also kind of secondary in the sense that was important as to see the signals and the reaction from coming from washington. and i think we've seen some change in that position over the several months here. as we remember back in the day when the americans for suppliers ukrainians with high mars the state department, try to, you know, highlighted that the do not endorse attacks on the russian territory for say,

you know, and only those weaponry will be used against, you know, the russian positions on your training territory and things like this. now, now we'll see some actors behind ukraine are either openly cherishing those attacks as the ones coming from the baltics or making pretty dubious. but pretty clear signal is coming from washington that they actually appreciate an approval attacks. now, what will make of that is an attempt to and at the same time, the same people speak about the dangers of the russian escalator rhetoric on the use of nuclear arms. and stuff, but the same people are actually in my view, pushing the conflict to a new level where you know, the attack open attack on civil and infrastructure is no longer a taboo. and actually are inviting russia to launch these attacks. and that, i think something, you know, if you read

a couple of weeks ago that we haven't actually started, i think, i think she actually meant that not the use of nuclear, dr. jackson. but exactly the things that russia can do, the damage, the russia can do, conventional weapons disrupting the logistics and disrupting the civilian infrastructure that would disrupt the communication of printing intelligence, all kinds of things. and i think those attacks are actually inviting a mosque to do that. whether it will follow that path is of course, a big question mark that every policy maker in a low cost is not a. this is pure cynicism here. uh huh. i'm going to ask you a question that a lot of people are asking me after the attack on the bridge. why are around, are you kidding? bridge is still standing then? well, there already goes to russia. was suggesting to destroy the radical position to

retaliate. well, i would say that since the russian army, since president would have not yet agreed to use such methods, i think it's a radical position because again, this is something that americans to lot understand you know, the view this war. so what would be an american force an evidence for us ukrainians in distinguish across. i mean, in 90 percent of the cases, if you agree in person came to worst one spoke russian to me. he's right, he's our russian would be so i would be able to tell, or maybe this will be someone from the south of someone from a lot of people speak with secret x and then people come from to year or from deeper control. so for us, this is not an issue. these are not ease, you know, these people are exactly like us. they have been just separate from us for 30 years by forced our media. i will pick up on what the max is just said,

you know the problem with the moral, with the moral side, all these actions, i mean, it isn't right now, how did you react to this explosion on the gray me reach during which 2 civilians die? absolutely innocent civilians. ok. we still don't know. the truck driver was a, was just used by the ukraine special services, but to people and it was mr for the next reaction. crimea preach. this is the stop isn't illegal, has to be destroyed. everything your great question. and so the moral of these people there ethics is exactly why that is darian raynichol morals over there . 2020th century. i know, just, you know, it's, like i said, is a, you know what, you the same,

wait for the current american shipping for the leadership of the u. s. in the house . did you see you tomorrow? even if you read it all debris, just if you're just rock or appliance, if you keep a lot of people, watch the video, we're not going to do with the what. this is all more or, you know, if you have still to meet, you know, you are back role ration need, you know, road good american can. so just want to play well, well these people and this is, this is the sign in a spot. ok. and that point we're going to jump in here gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break and after that chopper, we'll continue our discussion on some really stay with our team. ah, ah, ah

. a to get a body with you or chin,

but you also still listed on the screen here. mostly i just wanna check with you. i see the student bosses know group you motivation says deuce law to do it on bob with ah, welcome back to cross stock. were all things considered? i'm peter. well this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news. ah

. let's go back to max here in moscow. we're all in moscow on this edition of the program, you sent it earlier in the, in the 1st part of the program. these are, i don't see the attacks on the, the pipeline as an in the bridge as a some kind of strategic defeated. think it's more of a, of a media storia. as i said earlier, to keep ukraine in the news. but, you know, and in the, it, there's a certain point when a foreign country back by a very strong country, the united states in this country, in this situation. i mean, this is an attack on your territory. i mean, this doesn't that call for a declaration of war. i mean, we've gone from the special military operation to something else. i mean, is that going to far as i being in patient? well, i understand those who are calling for the declaration of war and you know, talking about the need to, you know, full mobilization,

all kinds of suggestions at the same time. i think since this is a clear publication and says since this, the methods for this provocation were picked in pretty radical way. you know, it's clear that the crimean bridge has been defended by a strong and air defense system. so they chose this white specific, put them to put it mildly way of attacking it to, to, to make a damage. so this clearly, as i said before, invites a russian to, to immediate, kind of need your reaction in a similar fashion, which i think is not going to happen. i see there is a difference between the same similar attacks on the russian military base and syria. my sister is back in the day, one russians immediately a launch. you know how a fire on their positions here is a more strategic and more kind of smart dance here and obviously before the

investigation is over and the russian one foresman honors knows what exactly happens and who's behind that. i think the retaliation will be picked in a more cold blooded manner and not necessarily need to press the issue here because with great fanfare here in russia, the induction of more new regions, republic into the russian federation. ok. and then how is it not russian? so that's when message is mosque, i'm sending to these new republics. i mean, the deal was you both were going to protect, you know, not the way the devil's advocate here. but i think that part of the calculus on the western side is to intimidate because i strongly believe and i've been saying it per month. and that's one reason it explains the special military operation. it's it's pace. you liberate areas and you convince people. yeah,

we're going to protect you. we're going to stay here. you don't, you know, we're not going to run away. ok. this is a tax on the bridge is sending a very strong message and i think that's what a lot of people are saying. how are you going to react to this? i'm sorry to be so hard core as they say, but i think it's part of the discussion. absolutely, no, i don't disagree with that. none of that, i totally think this is the case and i told we think it's important for the people who voted to rejoin join with russia is to send a clear message that they are a defendant and they're not going to be abandoned to or you know, so on the 100, the bus of the ukrainian military absolutely. so in this sense. busy there is a need to as well, not switch back, but i would say it's important to not pretend as if nothing has really happened. you know, i agree with my, with my colleague,

mitre here in terms of going to strategic communications that haven't been much disruption. it's more symbolic at the same time, you know, because this is now being picked up by ukrainian propaganda in the western mainstream media. they're trying to spin it and you know, double down on the printing contra offensive and the rushes and retreat. and that message has stayed there for over a month. now i think that that is dangerous in terms of shaping perception and you know, stealing hope or fear in the people. so the need for action on the russian side is definitely there. and i believe some changes are being made right this minute, including in the direction of the russian military operations in the, in the defense ministry. so it a, me, we, we've had reports on endless number of reports over the last few weeks. i mean, i max and again, david, a good introduction, the 1st part of the program. you know,

it's certain weapon systems. they wouldn't send to ukraine by no troops on no boots on the ground. you know, we heard this in, we've seen how we, this is a progression. it's mission creep here. now you have the, the main broad sheets in the united states, gleefully talking about the cia footprint in ukraine. i mean, this is kind of again, this is kind of flaunting it in front of a, in front of the russians and we're involved in this. i me, this is what really worries me and all this ridiculous talk about russia using nuclear weapons. there has been no talk of it here. it's only been an invention in western media. but nato and politically united states are a co belligerent no matter how you cut it here. and with these high profile attacks . i mean, at one point in time, russia's going to say you're, you're, you're a co belligerent here, and the, and this is the escalation that all of us worry about. go ahead. well, i am indeed warrant by the american reaction. i don't believe our president would

use nuclear weapons or i think he's being miscoded. i mean, read, he's called, well, we will use all weapons, a search committee. apparently he didn't even say the want nuclear. i'm worried about the american reaction because look, well the united states wants to retire, so there are always certain stages. you know, 1st a small war is for all the water in iraq and wait or something, then the least demonized like, oh he's so dangerous. he's absolutely crazy, can get inside his mind. he can destroy the wall. so the american public is convinced that these person needs to be taken out of the se, and then they stops. so we have almost all them here and i'm very concerned. i'm very concerned my general trust you already on a b, c, you know, on the prospective what would happen if there were nice these things?

would you use a nuclear weapons? you said that we will take out the game is terrible. what take out all the russian forces are here and no to review their right to more terrible things. there will be a cyber attack when russia paralyzed them, they will find some conventional lisa, you know, the need, don't they show their cards? are they showing their cards to general portray is, i mean, his reaction destroying the black sea fleet? i mean, i don't know what he was talking about. i mean, a complete lot of them. so certainly a reflection of the caliber of thinking that is in washington. but this is all you can do, right? also re, ukraine, drums out of the year. i mean, it's really, they really show what they're, what this is all about. this is about force regime change in russia because when they talk, that's why they introduce the element of nuclear weapons because your brain doesn't

have them. so this is again, pivoting to a, russia is the, the phone of, of the united states and nato, when they're not officially belligerent in this conflict. go head mass. i think at this point in time, all of the parties involved in this conflict are facing pretty hard dilemmas are choices. we've discussed the choices that the russian leadership is nation right on the one hand to respond to the other hand and still maintain some level of adequacy as opposed to as opposed to counterparts. ukrainians are on the on. there are also, you know, really you have zalinski resuming, he's talking, coming in venting a dirty nuclear bombs, something that perhaps partner food and back in january to, to launch the attack. but also you have, you know, massive counter offensive on several fronts and the casualties, ukrainian military suffering, which is never going to be discussed in the,

in the western mainstream. media are huge. they're all talking about the russian casualties. and you have certain interesting things happening. i think in the american political lead, where on the one hand, there is a need in the run up to the new terms to show that bite and has at least one issue on the control that is, you know, rationally printing conflict. whereas it's bipartisan as bipartisan. absolutely right. and the agenda he came with office is now under, you know, is not there where there is no foreign policy for the middle class that that is because there is no control of the migration issue. there is no control of the installation, things like that. so they need to show that at least one thing, the most important issue for american foreign policy. now, this crisis is under control and you know, the administration knows what to do with it, but the way they are also quite restrained in the way they want to, you know,

approach this conflict to not track us directly there, even though they will read the draft to the united states in the nato allies, to that conflict. and they're showing the support by sending even more dubious signal, says the ones that secretary blink and made in relation to the bombing of the crimea breach and more stream. things like this, that all of that doesn't really sit well in moscow and creates the impression that who is absolutely they are not just coming for food, but common for the destruction of russia. and that in a way is conflict. 2 or more, you know, dangerous extremes in a very, very, very way, quickly. i mean, obviously we're rapidly running out of time. but the mean them, i was barely alive that i was alive during the cuban missile crisis. neither one of you were. but we are in, if you know the history of that conflict,

which is there are similarities and there's some differences. and, but this isn't cuban missile crisis kind of in slow motion. ok, except for it's on rushes. your step in before and q that was on america's doorstep . they're in there consciously aware of this in kind of detailing on what max had to say here. there's this, you know, you want to make, you want to inflame the conflict as much as possible without being drawn into it. but we see our mission creep is work and every single conflict in recent history. so that's why i'm very, very concerned, because i hear this really lose rhetoric from the united states and it's official them. but this is the cuban missile crisis in reverse. 30 seconds team and go ahead . well, i did so it wasn't that you will need crisis because during the cuban missile crisis because of march or adequate leadership in washington and the communist. and i go and you will already already know staff, you know, people who are involved in the crisis told me that she was out with 2 years later

by the 20 bureau. they blame him for almost megan alex. oh, wow. well, you know, they're nice. now is all in danger because they didn't want you to promise not to join nato in the near future. so it was not even regime change in ukraine. yes, it was the case in your you know, what character, i mean we have run out of time. want to thank my guest here in moscow when i think our viewers from watching us here to see you next time, remember across cycles. ah, when i was a kid and engage in the trail. when so many find

themselves will support, we choose to look some common ground with stock and just look out for a muscle with noon. she doesn't being in the green shield on a nurse to me just place you mom with his ashley of at the see wanted to work with you but not with trying to not work for phones or something like that. and then we got about 4 years. i wanted to be with them

with great news, the deadly bombing of the cry. liam, to read is an act of terrorism by ukraine's secret services. but according to rush with, he says, the aim for cripple, i pull some 1000000 infrastructure. the commander in chief of ukraine is on full is caught online wearing a bracelet with what appears to be nazi insignia, amid fascist symbols being repeated this was it among the euclidian military thousands of votes as it take to the season. several european countries over the government, they had to stop the rise of food and fuel prices.