and when they would come back to our side immediately either evening showing of the l d p, our army would start, ukrainians would already know where their positions were. those who served a while, always used to say, oh oh i see here. so in the evening we are going to show the other side one key of attack, the dumbass back in 2014. it immediately opened and information front, waging the war both on the ground as well as for hearts and minds. and wall was fer, it seems in that battle, hamish done of reporting from the don't boss r t a by far breaking news when you're crying this hour, there are reports of multiple mythos focused on eve and of several other major cities in the country. here are the latest videos we have as of right now, the extent of the damage is unclear. as you can see, several vehicles have been damaged and the good advisor to present the records of

the strikes close to presidential office and the ukraine security services of it. is one of the city, the metro lines has stopped with all stations along the route being turned into shelters 20, according to the city's mer office. a number of other major cities in, in ukraine, including a desa, the pro petra and him in it. we have come under fire as well, who will approach bring you more details as soon as they come in. but up next in join people of alpha cross, so we'll be back there. however, only our so we hope you'll join us with ah,

[000:00:00;00] ah, hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on funeral. about 1st it was the north stream pipelines. now the bridge connecting crimea to the russian mainland. both have been sabotaged. both can be considered terrorist attacks on infrastructure. there can be no doubt moscow will react, but how and against whom ah, discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guest here in moscow. maxine sutkowski is the director of the center of advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations. and we have to meet your bob, which he is

a political analyst editor at in us me internet media project. i generally cross top roles. in fact, that means you can jump anytime you want, and i would appreciate, okay, much so kind of put this all together because, you know, we have 2 major sabotaged. we have the north stream pipelines and then we have the bridge connecting crimea to the russian mainland. these are infrastructure projects, civilian infrastructure. though, obviously everything can be dual purpose. these days, we still haven't seen a major direct reaction from moscow. i think there's a tendency here in moscow is for a strong reaction. but you know, there's, there's a big difference between scoring points and achieving goals. and i think that's the, the dilemma that the russian side is looking at this. all of this, obviously, to one degree another at the behest of the united states, tony blink and saying this is a tremendous opportunity when it comes to the pipelines. and then we had radix,

of course, the minutes after it was reported, the bridge been attacked. thank you, usa so we can connect those stops. so none of us are going to make any a bit of decisions because we're not in a position to do so. so your thoughts on how this is going mass. but i think on most of the attacks are important in 3 ways. one is see symbolic attack in the sense that, you know, especially the of the attack on the crimean bridge is supposed to happen. i think was it was a plot to happen on hooton's birthday and then we, we've seen reports to something went wrong and it took place the day after that, you know, the, the in case of the north tree, of course it's, it's a, it's a symbolic attack. on, you know, to stop as american officials put it depends european dependency on the russian guess. it's also the 2nd thing,

it's an attack on the symbol. both the crimean bridge and the north trim have been a symbol of russian power, energy, power, geopolitical power. and the, you know, bond in them was an important act of sabotage or act of terrorism. i wouldn't, you know, perhaps go as far as suggesting that's exactly what it looks like. and finally, it's, it's, it's a 3rd way it's, it's in the tech and it's an important security chord. you know, this, you can try me on bridge is an important logistics route for the russian troops defending crimea your song. and that is important in the wake of the plan you premium for events on that region. and, you know, the north stream is an important element in the russian energy security. and most importantly perhaps for viewers european energy security. and so it's not actually offers that mostly the europeans will end up with the ultimate losers here. so,

you know, as they used to say back in the day we produce who's, who's gaining from all of that. who's getting from all this, i need to set it up perfectly for you. wow. i think that basically with a beach is mostly psychological because they're a real connection to reestablish the just toss off the exposure that you know, the small casa, have been watching since evening, you know, since evening or saturday ok, drugs be carried by fairies. but in general, it's not one of these great for a long time, so that damages wants to say, go, i want to look at that in a broader perspective. i like the article in foreign policy by even walk out, and it roches defeat would be america program. and there is

a now in this article will profit. let me go to student the ukrainian victory. what stress on the same political force united states could use the counterproductive excesses of the unit for iraq. i'm a conservative and then b liberal procedures will grow. i mean, finally, in order to success, the 30 years or favor. and the quote that i think is not because you're going to, people are not going to write a, you know, be technically technically unable to get the amount of rush and guess that the could get, you know, in case it no seem to, and austin, of on stayed intact, right. so these 5, this one is i go and the ultimate benefit are people i want to profit from it on the open

a new broker. see this. they are using green is in the same way they use syrian rebels in 2011, 2000. well, this is not my thought, i read it the review and i agree with it. so we know that these forces are destructive and when americans and europeans are asking the question, why is it that china india, lots of african countries, the middle east? why are they so reluctant to condemn russia? well, precisely because the big just in case of this, so you bring in big 3, will be in the know conservative and the broker. see this will destroy them. you could destroy my career. and there's, there's a particularly when it comes to the bridge max, we have to say the obvious in this is what made a lot of people here very angry at russian territory. i mean, it's happened once, is a going to happen again. i mean, and i think all of us are in agreement that you know,

we will never know what happened in nor stream usually happens. ok. we think because that would be the investigation of the powers that be the name will never be held accountable. but i mean, this is making a reaction and it seems to me, this is my own. the only opinion is that this is like, particularly with the attack on the bridge, it's a fundraising event to show you know, the ukrainians are taking the initiative the, the, that the russians are on the back foot. it's a way to keep ukraine top of mind. ok. because i have no illusions about the outcome of this conflict. ukraine will be destroyed. ok, the utterly destroyed it. just how that happens. so i'm sorry to be so cynical, but you know, it, you know, ukraine was top of the headlines again because the attack on the bridge is already been pointed on this program. it's already operating hours afterwards. your thoughts mass? well, i think. busy you know, as, as isn't important or whatever you're training an official,

some policy makers think and take action or stance. a secondary here. and i think for more rational policy makers is also kind of secondary in the sense that was important as to see the signals and the reaction from coming from washington. and i think we've seen some change in that position over the over the several months here . as we remember back in the day when the americans 1st suppliers ukrainians with high mars the state department, try to, you know, highlighted that the do not endorse attacks on the russian territory for say, you know, and only those weaponry will be used against, you know, the russian positions on your training territory and things like this. now now we'll see some actors behind ukraine are either openly cherishing those attacks as the ones coming from the baltics or making pretty dubious. but pretty,

a clear signal is coming from washington that they actually appreciate an approval attacks. now what will make of that is an attempt to and at the same time, the same people speak about the dangers of the russian escalator rhetoric on the use of nuclear arms and stuff. but the same people are actually in my view pushing the conflict to a new level where you. busy the attack open attack on civil infrastructure is no longer a taboo and actually are inviting russia to launch these attacks. and, and that, i think something, you know, if you read a couple of weeks ago that we haven't actually started, i think, i think she actually meant that not the use of nuclear, dr. jackson. but exactly the, the things that russia can do, the damage, the russia can do, conventional weapons disrupting the logistics and disrupting the civilian infrastructure that would disrupt the communication of your printing intelligence,

all kinds of things. and i think those attacks are actually inviting a mosque to do that, whether it will follow that path is of course, a big question mark that every policy maker in a low cost is not a. this is pure cynicism here. uh huh. i'm going to ask you a question that a lot of people are asking me after the attack on the bridge. why are around, are you kidding? bridge is still standing then? well, they're already coasted. russia was suggesting to destroy the radical position to retaliate. well, i would say that since the russian army, since president would have not yet agreed to use such methods, i think it's a radical position because again, this is something that americans to log on to stand, you know, they view this war. so what would be an american for some evidence for us

ukrainians, indistinguishable cross. i mean in 90 percent of the cases, if you agree in person came to worst one, spoke russian to me. he's right, he's a rush would be so i would be able to tell, or maybe this would be someone from the south of someone from a lot of people speak with the corrections, then people come from to year or from deeper control. so for us, this is not an 80 and therapy. these are not ease, you know, these people are exactly like us. they have been just separated from us for 30 years by force or media. i will pick up on what i'm actually just said. you know the problem with the moral, with the moral side, all these actions. i mean, this isn't right now. how did you react to this explosion on the gray mean beach during which 2 civilians died too? absolutely innocent civilians. ok,

we still don't know the truck driver was here. comic garza was just used by the spectrum services but to people and then it was mr. for the next reaction. crimea preach. this is the stop, isn't illegal, has to be destroyed. everything you great question. and so the moral of these people there ethics is exactly why that gary raynichol morals over there. 2020th century. i know just, you know, it's raining and said and the benefits from day and we'll see you tomorrow in the one in the same weight for the current american shipment for the leadership of the u. s. in the house, could you see russia is horrible, even if you defeat the breed, even if you exposed the breed, just if you just rob the appliance, if you kill a lot of people, lot civilians were nothing to do with the war. this is a war or, you know, if it helps to humiliate you know, to

a back role russian influence, they say, you know, road good. you, the american can. so just wanted to play. well, will these people ever since this is the signs with anderson's political sports is political ok and that point we're going to jump in here gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break and after that chopper, we'll continue our discussion on some real nice. stay with our team. ah ah, [000:00:00;00]

a form the initial you want to pull up a post on zillow diaz can use to put body. what do you do or 2? but you also done a what i see the student boss who's no route you motivation says use a gumbo sub a welcome back to crossed out. were all things considered? i'm peter bell. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real

news. ah, let's go back to next year in moscow, we're all in moscow on this edition of the program. you said it earlier in the 1st part of the program. these are, i don't see the attacks on the that the pipeline as an in the bridge as a some kind of strategic defeat. i think it's more of a, of a media storia, as i said earlier, to keep ukraine in the news. but, you know, and if the, if the, if there's a certain point when a foreign country backed by a very strong country in the united states, in this country, in this situation, i mean, this is an attack on your territory. i mean, this doesn't that call for a declaration of war. i mean, we've gone from the special military operation to something else. i mean, is that going too far? is that being in patient? well, i understand those who are calling for the declaration of war and you know,

talking about the need to, you know, for full mobilization all kinds of suggestions at the same time, i think since this is a clear publication. and since, since this did the math, and so for this provocation were picked in pretty radical way. you know, it's clear that the crimea bridge has been defendant by a strong and air defense system. so they chose the, quite specific mildly way of attacking it to, to, to make damage. so this clearly, as i said before, invites a russia to, to a media is kind of new jerk reaction in the similar fashion which i think is not going to happen. i see there is a difference between said similar attacks on the russian military base and syria by isis terrace back in the day when russians immediately launch, you know, how

a fire on their positions here is a more strategic and more kind of smart down here. and obviously before the investigation is over and the russian enforcement under knows what exactly happened and who's behind that. i think the retaliation will be picked in more cold blooded manner and not necessarily need to print the issue here because we're great . they're here in russia. they induction for new regions, republic into the russian federation. ok. and then crimea is a russian. so, when, when messages moscow sending to these new republics, i mean, the deal was, you know, of course we're going to protect you and i was double back here. but i started the calculus on the western side is to intimidate because i strongly believe. and i've been saying it per month, and that's one reason it explains the special military operation. it's it's pace.

you liberate areas and you convince people. yeah, we're going to protect you. we're going to stay here. you don't, you know, we're not going to run away. ok, the top of the bridge is sending a very strong message and i think that's what a lot of people are saying. how are you going to react to this? i'm sorry to be so hard core as they say, but i think it's part of the discussion that's absolutely no, i don't disagree with that. none of that. i totally think this is jason. i totally think that it's important for the people who voted to rejoin join with russia is to, to send a clear message that they are a defendant and they're not going to be abandoned or, you know, so in the 100 the bus of the ukrainian military absolutely so in this sense. busy there is a need to as well, not switch back, but i would say it's important to not pretend as if nothing has really happened.

you know, i agree with my, with my colleague, mitre here in terms of going to strategic communications that haven't been much disruption. it's more symbolic of the same time, you know, because this is now being picked up by ukrainian propaganda and the western mainstream media. they're trying to spin it and you know, double down on the clean the contra offensive and the rushes and retreat. and that message has stayed there for over a month. now i think that that is dangerous in terms of shape and perception. and you know, it's feeling cold for fear in the people. so the need for action on the russian side is definitely there. and i believe some changes are being made right this minute, including in the direction of the russian military operations in the, in the defense ministry. so it, yeah, a demo. i mean it, we, we've had reports,

an endless number of reports over the last few weeks. i mean, i max and again, gave it a good introduction. the 1st part of the program, you know, it's a certain weapon systems they wouldn't send to ukraine, but by no troops on no boots on the ground. you know, we heard this in, we've seen how we, this is a progression. it's mission creep here. now you have them in the main broad sheets in the united states, gleefully talking about the cia footprint in ukraine. i mean, this is kind of, again, this is kind of flaunting it in front of a, in front of the russians. you know, we're involved in this, i, me, this is what really worries me in all this ridiculous talk about russia using nuclear weapons. there has been no talk of it here. it's only been an invention in western media. but nato and politically united states are a co belligerent no matter how you come here. and with these high profile attacks. i mean, at one point in time, russia's going to say you're your euro co belligerent here in the,

in this is the escalation that all of us worry about. go ahead, ema. oh, i am indeed warrant by the american reaction. i don't believe our president would use nuclear weapons or i think he's been miscoded. i mean read his growth. well, we will use all weapons, a search to print that out there. he didn't even say the want nuclear american reactions because look, well the united states wants to it there. so there are always certain stages. you know, 1st a small war is a weight or something then the least demonized like, oh he's so dangerous. he's absolutely crazy. can get inside his mind, you can destroy the wall. so the american public is convinced that this person needs to be taken out of the se, and stops. so we're almost over here and i'm very concerned. i'm very concerned my general trust to already on a b, c, you know,

unfold of the perspective, what would happen if there are nice things. would you use us nuclear weapons? you said that we will take out the game is terrible. what take out all the russian forces are here and, you know, to review their writing more terrible things. there will be a cyber attack on russia, paralyzed, they will find some conventional need. a, don't they show their cards? are they showing their cards? general portray is, i mean, his reaction destroyed the black sea fleet. i mean, i don't know what he was talking about. i mean, a complete lot of them. so certainly a reflection of the caliber of thinking that is in washington. but this is all you can do, right? also re, ukraine, drums out of the picture here is really they really show with what this is all about. this is about force regime change in russia because when they talk,

that's why they introduce the element of nuclear weapons because your brain doesn't have them. so this is again, pivoting to a, russia is the, the phone of the united states and nato, when they're not officially belligerent in this conflict. go head mass. i think at this point in time, all of the parties involved this conflict have, are facing pretty hard dilemmas and our choices. we've discussed the choices that the russian leadership space, right on the one hand to respond to the other hand, still maintain some level of adequacy as opposed to as opposed to counter pars. ukrainians are on the on. there are also, you know, the, you have lensky resuming. he's talk of the coming, inventing a dirty nuclear bomb. something that perhaps triggered back in january to, to launch the attack. but also you have, you know, massive counter offensive on several fronts and the casualties of ukrainian

military suffering, which is never going to be discussed in the, in the western mainstream. media are huge. they're only talking about the russian casualties. you have certain interesting things happening. i think in the american political lead, where on the one hand, there is a need in the run up to the new terms to show that vitamin has at least one issue under control. that is, you know, russian printing conflict, whereas it's bipartisan bipartisan. absolutely right. and the agenda he came with office is now under, you know, is not there where there is no foreign policy for the middle class that, that is because there is no control of the migration issue. there is no control of the installation, things like that. so they need to show that at least one thing, the most important issue for american foreign policy. now, this crisis is under control and you know, the administration knows what to do with it,

but the way they are also quite restrained in the way they want to approach this conflict to not track us directly there, even though they will re draft to the united states in the nato allies to that conflict. and they're showing this support by sending even more dubious signal, says the ones that secretary blinking made in relation to the bombing of the crimea bridge and more stream. things like this, that all of that doesn't really sit well in moscow and creates the impression that the west is absolutely. they are not just coming for food, but common for the destruction of russia. and that in a way is conflict. 2 or more, you know, dangerous extremes in a very, very, very way, quickly. i mean, obviously even rapidly running out of time. but the mean them, i was barely alive. i was alive during the cuban missile crisis. neither one of you

were. but we are in, if you know the history of that conflict, which is there are similarities and there's some differences. and, but this isn't cuban missile crisis kind of in slow motion. ok, except for it's on rushes. your step in before and q that was on america's doorstep . they're in their consciously aware of this in kind of detailing what max i to say here. this is, you know, you want to make, you want to inflame the conflict as much as possible without being drawn into it. but we see how mission creep is worked and every single conflict in recent history . so that's why i'm very, very concerned here because i hear there's really loose rhetoric from the united states and it's official them. but this is the cuban missile crisis in reverse. 30 seconds team and go ahead. well, i did so it wasn't that you been me so crisis because during the cuban missile crisis because of march or adequate need to ship in washington and the

communist. and i don't, you will already already know staff, you know, people who are involved in that price told me that she was out with 2 years later by the bureau. it was the bleach for almost a month. but, you know, the states now is all in danger. because they didn't want you to promise not to join nato in the near future. so it was not even real change in ukraine. yes, it was the case in your, you know, what kennedy, i have run out of time. want to thank my guest here in moscow. and i think our viewers from watching us here to see you next time, remember across cycles. ah, ah, ah,

when i was a kid and engagement with so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, with breaking news on our t multiple missiles stripe hit the ukrainian capital of kiev and several other major cities across the country. another of which is the net pro petrov scene here with the port city of death and the nitty in western ukraine. also shell on saturdays deadly bombing over the crimean bridge is an act of terrorism by