otherwise, as we hear, i think they have this g 20 in bally, and each zaleski is not taking this opportunity just to settle the situation peacefully. will be just in the worst situation of a human in the world. and it is kind of threatening. and if you continue with this unhindered, no behavior or action, you will be only lose that because most of the why it didn't affect you, hold your friend from the beginning because he knows very well that there is a history and a just want his name is clear most of the time and also he just treating with the okay and people who are away from the, you know, the administration which is zionist club unfortunately, and be are very kind people we met opinion in moscow when i was doing my was about to wait studies the for, you know, i think this is the last chance for the landscape to come in bally at the g. 20. just to settle the situation with an important i think your yellow,

i think your yellow card analogies is a very good one off med thanks. thanks for throwing that out there. karen, i wanted to ask you quickly in the wake of the lord stream pipeline or sabotage, malicious called it, what it, what it is. as we understand putin said to day that he has been blocked, russia has been blocked from the investigation into the blast to the notion pipelines. these pipelines belong to russia, and yet russia is being locked. why is russia being blocked from investigating damage to its own pipelines? because they don't want to reveal the who is responsible for it. and this actually could be extremely interesting because it may be an act of several nato members against other nato members. and that is that, that's very exciting, historically speaking, so we'll see what happened. but i'm sure they do not want any exposure. they want to be able to control the narrative very closely on not on this situation, or

a current crit cowski, retired us air force attendant count on the right screen. the in the middle of mr. scott ritter, former us marine corps intel offer. so and of course augment mustafah from the, from that of the director of the age of center studies and translation to all 3 of you. how i enjoy our chats. thank you for joining us. there were naughty international have a very good evening. thank you. hello. and thank you for joining us or an archie international. plenty of things you may have missed waiting for you right now when i was he telegram and archie don't ah, [000:00:00;00] ah . hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on funeral.

about 1st it was the north stream pipelines. now the bridge connecting crimea to the russian mainland both have been sabotaged. both can be considered terrorist attacks on infrastructure. there can be no doubt moscow will react, but how and against whom ah discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guest here in moscow. maxine susco, he's the director of the center of advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations. and we have to meet your bobbitt. she is a political analyst editor at in us me, internet media project. i generally cross top roles. in fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i would appreciate. ok matt. so kind of put this all together because, you know, we have 2 major sabotaged. we have the north screen pipelines and then we have the bridge connecting crimea to the russian mainland. these are infrastructure projects,

civilian infrastructure, though, obviously everything can be dual purpose. these days, we still haven't seen a major direct reaction from moscow. i think there's a tendency here in moscow is for a strong reaction. but you know, there's, there's a big difference between scoring points and achieving goals. and i think that's the, the dilemma that the russian side is looking at this. all of this, obviously, to one degree another at the behest of the united states, tony blink and saying this is a tremendous opportunity when it comes to the pipelines. and then we had ranks, of course, the minutes after it was reported, the bridge been attacked. thank you usa. so we can connect those stops. so none of us are going to make any a bit of decisions because we're not in a position to do so. so your thoughts on how this is going mass, but i think on both of the attacks are important in 3 ways. one is see

symbolic attack in the sense that, you know, especially the of the attack on the crimean bridge is supposed to happen. i think was it was, it was a plot it to happen on hooton's birthday and then we, we've seen reports to something went wrong and it took place the day after. but, you know, the, the in case of the north tree, of course it's, it's a, it's a symbolic attack on, you know, to stop as american officials put it depends european dependency on the russian guess. it's also the 2nd thing, it's an attack on the symbol. both the crimean bridge and the north trim have been a symbol of russian power, energy, power, geopolitical power. and the, you know, bombing them was an important act of sabotage or act of terrorism. i wouldn't, you know, perhaps go as far as suggesting that's exactly what it looks like. and finally it's,

it's, it's a 3rd way it's, it's a, an attack on an important security chord. you know, this, you can try me on bridge. is an important logistics route for the russian troops defending crimea your song, and that is important in the wake of the plan you premium counter offensive on that region. and, you know, the north stream is an important element in the russian energy security. and most importantly, perhaps our viewers, european energy security. and so it's not actually offers that mostly the europeans will end up with the ultimate losers here. so, you know, as they used to say back in the day we produce who's, who's gaining from all of that. who's getting from all this i need to set it up perfectly for you. well, i think that basically with a beach is mostly psychological because they're

a real connection to reestablish the just hours after the explosion that you know, the small stuff have been passed. and since evening, you know, since evening or saturday ok, drugs be carried by fairies. but in general, it's not one of these great for a long time. so that damages want to say what i want to look at that in a broader perspective. i want the article in foreign policy. why even walk out and it rushes, defeat would be america problem and there is a now in this article would profit. let me go to stephen walk. the ukrainian victory would stress on the same political force. united states could use the counterproductive excesses of the unit for iraq, a conservatives, and then be liberal procedures will grow. i mean, finally, in order to success,

the 30 years or favor and the quote that i think is not because you read people are not going to profit. right? you are being a, you know, be technically, technically unable to get the best that they could get. you know, in case it no, seem to in austin on stayed in there. right. so these 5, this one is i don't want to go and the ultimate benefit are people i want to profit from it. other neoconservative, the broker status. they, i use ingredients in the same way they use syrian rebels in 2011, 2000. well, this is not my thought, i read it to review and i agree with it. so we know that these forces are destructive and when americans and europeans are asking themselves question,

why is it that china, india, lots of african countries, the middle east? why are they so reluctant to condemn russia? well, precisely because the vigorous integration of this so you bring in big 3 will be in the know can show it and the broker see this will destroy them. you could destroy my career. and there's, there's a particularly when it comes to the bridge max, we have to say the obvious in this is what made a lot of people here very angry. that's russian territory. i mean, it's happened once. it is a going to happen again. i mean, and i think all of us are in agreement that you know, will never know what happened in nor stream usually happens. ok. we think because that would be the investigation of the powers that be the new will never be held accountable. but i mean, this is a reaction and it seems to me, this is my own only opinion. is it, this is like, particularly with the attack on the bridge, it's

a fundraising event to show you know, the ukrainians are taking the initiative the, the, that the russians are on the back foot. it's a way to keep ukraine top of mind. ok, because i have no illusions about the outcome of this conflict. ukraine will be destroyed. ok, be utterly destroyed. it's just how that happened. so i'm sorry to be so cynical, but you know, it, you know, ukraine was top of the headlines again because the attack on the ridge is already been pointed on this program. it's already operating hours afterwards. your thoughts mass? well, i think. busy you know, as, as isn't important or whatever, you're korean official, some policy makers think and take action or stance. a secondary here. and i think for more, russian policy makers is also kind of secondary in the sense that was important as to see the signals and the reaction from coming from washington. and i think we've

seen some change in that position over the over the several months here. as we remember back in the day when the americans 1st supplied ukrainians with high mars, the state department tried to, you know, highlighted that the do not endorse attacks on the russian territory for say, you know, and only those weaponry would be used against the russian positions on your training territory and things like this. now now we see some actors behind ukraine are either openly cherishing those attacks as the ones coming from the baltics or making pretty dubious. put pretty clear signals is coming from washington, that they actually appreciate an approval of now what will make of that is an attempt to and at the same time, the same people speak about the dangers of the russian escalator. a rhetoric on the use of nuclear arms and stuff, but the same people are actually in my view, pushing the conflict to a new level where you know,

the attack open attack on civil and infrastructure is no longer a taboo. and actually are inviting russia to launch these attacks and that i think something, you know, if you read a couple of weeks ago that we haven't actually started, i think, i think she actually meant that not the use of nuclear doc detectors. but exactly the things that russia can do, the damage the russia can do with conventional weapons, disrupting the logistics and disrupting the civilian infrastructure that would disrupt the communication of your printing intelligence, all kinds of things. and i think those attacks are actually inviting a mosque to do that, whether it will follow that path is of course, a big question mark that every policy maker in one, it's low cost. it's not america, grady. i mean, this is pure cynicism here. uh huh. i'm going to ask you a question that

a lot of people are asking me after the attack on the bridge. why are around, are you creating bridge is still standing then? well, there already goes to russia, was suggesting to destroy the radical position to retaliate. well, i would say that since the russian army, since president would have not yet agreed to use such methods, i think it's a radical position because again, this is something that americans to log understand, you know, the view this war. so what would be an american for some evidence for us ukrainians in distinguish across i mean in 90 percent of the cases, if you agree in person came to worst was russian to me. he's right, he's a, maybe this will be someone from the south of someone from

a lot of people speak with x and then people come from to year from different control. so for us, this is not an alien theory. these are not eats, you know, these people are exactly like us. they have been just separate from us for 30 years by 4 star media. i will pick up on what the max is just said, you know, the problem with the moral, with the moral side. all these actions, i mean just isn't right now. how did you react to this explosion on the gray me reach during which 2 civilians die? absolutely innocent civilians. ok, we do not know the truck driver was here. comic garza was just used by the great special services but to people and it was mr. for the next reaction. crimea preach . this is the stop, isn't illegal, has to be destroyed. everything your great interest. and so the moral of

these people there ethics is exactly why that gary raynichol morals over there. 2020th century. i know just you know, it's, like i said, a you know what, you the same, wait for the current american shipment for the leadership of the u. s in the house . could you see you tomorrow, even if you feel the breed, even of all debris just if you're just rock or if you keep a lot of people watch c b s, we're not going to do with the war. this is all war or, you know, if you have to humiliate, you know, you are, all russian needs, say, you know, road good american can. so just want to play well, well these people ever since this is the science in every sense, political sports. ok. and that point we're going to jump in here gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break will continue our discussion on some

really stay with our team. ah, ah, ah . ah, welcome to crossed out. were all things considered? i peter, well this is the home edition to remind you were discussing some real news.

ah, let's go back to next year. we're all in moscow on this edition of the program. earlier in the, in the 1st part of the program. these are, i don't see the attacks on these of the pipeline as an, in the bridges and some kind of strategic defeated. think it's more of a, of a media astoria. as i said earlier, to keep ukraine in the news. but, you know, and that the, in the, if there's a certain point when a foreign country back by a very strong country in the united states, in this country, in this situation. i mean, this is an attack on your territory. i mean, this doesn't that call for a declaration of war. i mean, we've gone from the special military operation to something else. i mean, is i going to far is and being in patient? well, i understand those who are calling for the declaration of war and you know,

talking about the need to, you know, full mobilization, all kinds of suggestions at the same time. i think since this is a clear publication and says since this, the methods for this provocation were picked in pretty radical way. you know, it's clear that the crimean bridge has been defended by a strong and air defense system. so they chose this white specific, put them to put it mildly way of attacking it to, to, to make a damage. so this clearly, as i said before, invites a russian to, to immediate, kind of need your reaction in a similar fashion, which i think is not going to happen. i see there is a difference between the same similar attacks on the russian military base and syria. my sister is back in the day, one russians immediately a launch, you know, how a fire on their positions here is

a more strategic and more kind of smart dance here. and obviously, before the investigation is over and the russian, you know, unfortunately under knows what exactly happens and who's behind that. i think the retaliation will be picked in a more cold blooded manner and not necessarily need to press the issue here because with great fanfare here in russia, the induction of or new regions republic into the russian federation. ok. and then, how is it not russian soil, that's when message is mosque. i'm sending to these new republics. i mean, the deal was you both were going to protect you, not the way the devil's advocate here, but i think that part of the calculus on the western side is to intimidate because i strongly believe and i've been saying it per month. and that's one reason it explains the special military operation. it's it's pace. you liberate areas and you

convince people. yeah, we're going to protect you. we're going to stay here. you don't, you know, we're not going to run away. ok. this is a tax on the bridge is sending a very strong message and i think that's what a lot of people are saying. how are you going to react to this? i'm sorry to be so hard core as they say, but i think it's part of the discussion that's absolutely no, i don't disagree with that. none of that. i totally think this is jason. i totally think that it's important for the people who voted to rejoin join with russia is to send a clear message that they are a defendant and they're not going to be banned into or, you know, so on the 100, the bus of the ukrainian military absolutely. so in this sense. busy there is a need to switch. well, not switched about, but i would say, it's important to not pretend as if nothing has really happened. you know, i agree with my, with my colleague,

mitre here in terms of going to strategic communications that haven't been much disruption. it's more symbolic at the same time, you know, because this is now being picked up by ukrainian propaganda and the western mainstream media. busy trying to spin it and you know, double down on the printing contra offensive and the rushes and retreat and that message has stayed there for over a month. now i think that that is dangerous in terms of shaping perception and you know, it's feeling hope or fear in the people. so the need for action on the russian side is definitely there. and i believe some changes are being made right this minute, including in the direction of the russian military operations in the, in the defense ministry. so it a, me, it, we, we've had reports on endless number of reports over the last few weeks. i mean,

i max and again, gave it a good introduction. the 1st part of the program, you know, it's a certain weapon systems they wouldn't send to ukraine and by no troops on no boots on the ground. you know, we heard this in, we've seen how we, this is a progression. it's mission creep here. now you have the, the main broad sheets in the united states, gleefully talking about the cia footprint in ukraine. i mean, this is kind of again, this is kind of flaunting it in front of a, in front of the russians and we're involved in this. i me, this is what really worries me and all this ridiculous talk about russia using nuclear weapons. there has been no talk of it here. it's only been an invention in western media, but nato, in particular, united states, or a co belligerent no matter how you come here and with these high profile attacks. i mean, at one point in time, russia's going to say you're your euro, co belligerent here in the, in. this is the escalation that all of us worry about. go ahead. i'm indeed warrant

by the american reaction. i don't believe our president would use nuclear weapons or i think he's being miscoded. i mean read his growth. well, we will use all weapons, a search committee, apparently he didn't even say the one nuclear. i'm worried about making the actions because look, well the united states wants to it there. so there are all a certain stages. you know, 1st a small war is a weight or something, then the least demonized like, oh he's so dangerous. he's absolutely crazy. can get inside his mind, you can destroy the wall. so the american public is convinced that these person needs to be taken out of the state and then the us. so we can always call them here and i'm very concerned. i'm very concerned my general trust lady on a b, c. you know, unfold of the prospective,

what would happen if they're not in the states. would you use us nuclear weapons? he said that we will take out the game is terrible. what take out all the russian forces are here and, you know, to review their writing more terrible things. there will be a cyber attack on russia, paralyzed, they will find some conventional lisa, a, don't they show their cards? are they showing their cards to general portray is, i mean, his reaction destroy the black sea fleet? i mean, i don't know what he was talking about. i mean, a complete lot of them. so certainly a reflection of the caliber of thinking that is in washington. but this is all you can do, right? also re, ukraine, drums out of the picture here is really they really show what they're, what this is all about. this is about force regime change in russia because when they talk, that's why they introduce the element of nuclear weapons because your brain doesn't

have them. so this is again, pivoting to a, russia is the, the phone of the united states and nato, when they're not officially belligerent in this conflict. go head mass. i think at this point in time, all of the parties involved this conflict, how far are facing pretty hard dilemmas and our choices. we've discussed the choices that the russian leadership space, right on the one hand to respond to the other hand, still maintain some level of adequacy as opposed to as opposed to counter pars. ukrainians are on the on. there are also, you know, you have lensky resuming use, talk of the coming, inventing a dirty nuclear bomb. something that perhaps triggered back in january to, to launch the attack. but also you have, you know, massive counter offensive on several fronts and the casualties, ukrainian military suffering, which is never going to be discussed in the,

in the western mainstream media are huge. they're only talking about the russian casualties. and you have certain interesting things happening. i think in the american political lead, where on the one hand, there is a need in the run up to the new terms to show that fighting has at least one issue on control. that is, you know, rationally printing conflicts. whereas it's bipartisan isn't absolutely right. and the agenda he came with office is now under, you know, is not there where there is no foreign policy for the middle class that they discuss. there is no control of the migration issue. there is no control of the installation, things like that. so they need to show that at least one thing, the most important issue for american foreign policy. now, this crisis is under control and you know, the administration knows what to do with it,

but the way they are also quite restrained in the way they want to, you know, approach this conflict to not track us directly there, even though they will read the draft to the united states in the nato allies, to that conflict. and they're showing the support by sending even more dubious signal, says the ones that secretary blinking made in relation to the bombing of the crimea bridge and more stream. things like this, that all of that doesn't really sit well in moscow and create the impression that the west is absolutely. they are not just coming for food, but common for the destruction of russia. and that in a way is conflict. 2 or more, you know, dangerous extremes in a very, very, very way, quickly. i mean, obviously we're rapidly running out of time, but the mean them, i was barely alive with that. i was alive during the cuban missile crisis. neither

one of you were. but we are in, if you know the history of that conflict, which is there are similarities and there's some differences. and, but this isn't cuban missile crisis kind of in slow motion. ok, except for it's on rushes. your step in before and q that was on america's doorstep . they're in there consciously aware of this in kind of detailing on what max had to say here. there's this, you know, you want to make, you want to inflame the conflict as much as possible without being drawn into it. but we see our mission creep is worked and every single conflict in recent history . so that's why i'm very, very concerned here because i hear this really lose rhetoric from the united states and it's official them. but this is the cuban missile crisis in reverse. 30 seconds team and go ahead. well, i did so one day when you saw crisis, because during the cuban missile crisis become march or adequate leadership in washington and the communist and i go and you will already already know staff, you know,

people who are involved in that price told me that she was out with 2 years later by the bureau because they believed for almost a well, you know, the state now is give all in danger because they didn't want you to promise not to join. they don't in the near future. so it was not even real change in ukraine. yes, it was the case if you were, you know what? i mean, we have run out of time. want to thank my guest here in moscow when i think our viewers from watching us here to see you next time, remember across cycles. ah, ah,

[000:00:00;00] a kid and engagement with so many find themselves will support. we choose to look for common ground. ah well john mitchell alex, she's just gonna be on the left in columbia. nobody but i just bought a level that he thought young my real name is law school is law school of college with a bunch of federal region. yeah,