good afternoon, coach welsh thought it was for me to log off on all kinds of thought which, which no longer will show us the new solution, not critical push to to stream remote because or lose new or your course load useful. of course, i don't know who to go for the don't or i should just with easy for us to clean for losses. camaros tooth. 1950. the u. s. i saw was returning to peaceful life, but the newspapers didn't report ongoing massacres and the ukranian sr. according to intelligence, ukrainian nationalists and the ukrainian insurgent army, led by romans forgive each perpetrated these atrocities for future hold that, that was going well, but i shouldn't be self store me why you would be wise to review. i push because of all course, we'll do a menu or novels to the plant of the head of the n, k, v d sabotage, department of the time he was tasked with stopping the atrocities in ukraine for

a good reason. general suit blancho was very familiar with the situation. he had experienced fighting the nationalist before the war. get the movie and the love list, he can get a 0. do it. so didn't know could amy my name is paulette control. give me the task was tremendously difficult, but suit up lanta was determined to completed. we had personal accounts to settle with the ukranian nationalists. with hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things considered? i'm peter lavelle. much the chagrin of the west,

china in the global south have not condemned or isolated russia over the conflict in ukraine. in fact, the opposite appears to have happened. the global south does not embrace the west demand of a rules based order or so called western values. in general, 500 years of western domination is coming to an end. the, the cross talking the global south, i'm joined by my guess mohammed mirandi and in toronto, he is professor at the university of trying to new delhi. we have professor troy, she is professor emeritus at the school of international studies at newer university. and in ankara we cross the same body, he is president to the foreign policy institute or cross type roles. and in fact, that means he can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate mom and let me go to you person to ron and welcome back to the program after such a long hiatus here jake sullivan, that brilliant guy in washington. he says, the stakes could not be higher. we are at an inflection point. i agree with him. ok,

probably for reasons that he wouldn't agree with me about. but nonetheless, we are inflection point and ukraine has put it all in relief. go ahead mohammed. well, we are at a major infection point and i think it's far too late for the americans to do anything about it. the united states is rapidly on the decline. they continue with their and this war as an occupations. the nice it is basically a military machine and it constantly feeds that military machine. and meanwhile, the rest of the global south is, is on the rise. i mean, when one side is on the decline, the other side rises, whether in or whether it's in relative terms or otherwise. so i think that actually this winter will make things much clearer. yeah,

because europe moves towards crisis. and as the united states has to carry the burden of europe, it's not as if the united states doesn't suffer nice. it does offer. and the nice, it also doesn't benefit from a week and broken euro, even if there is it. if they force a divorce between europe and russia to their own benefit when a broken europe is, is a wage that the magazine has to carry with it. so it's not a win for the united states. meanwhile, china continues to evolve. iran is now used to the sanctions even though the united states has tried desperately to the same life, the country and it didn't work and it's not going to work. iran is now a member of the shanghai population organization in the summit meeting and was pakistan. there were major and agreements between the line and russia. you run in china. iran in the spec is on russia and china, india wanting to do business with russia to re run through the whole of asia is

changing. the map is changing and there's really nothing that the united states can do about a professional to annoy him in new ellie. the last time you were on the program, i think we talked about the, the g 7 that had met and i asked you, what was the reaction in india and you said not much. ok, it doesn't make the front page. it's not a major headline. this point of this inflection point, i think is really true because the united states is forcing your, either with us or against this. and the global south says, well we, we're not going to make a decision. we don't fear you, and we don't really respect you anymore. that's the inflection point. go ahead in new delhi. well, i think the global south has not kept quiet. they, what they're saying is with through their policy of neutrality and they talked to states, even though they do not want war, they want, you know, respect, serenity,

etc. i think they understand the russian position and their security concerns and as far as they're concerned and the west is concerned or any other big grouping is concerned, they want neutrality, which means strategic autonomy. an independent foreign policy. they do not want to be pressured into this site or that site or to somebody else's waters. so this warren, ukraine is not the war of the global. so, and they've seen the differences of how the west st this water, ukraine, and how it treats the wars that you know of into engine rich based thought in the global south. whether it's iraq or you know, whether it's supporting the saudis in yemen or libya. the attitude they have to was refugees from conflicts. so there is element of racism. and the south is saying no, we don't want to be thought of well off this war. sure.

you bring up a very good point. let's go to where it gets to anchor, who st. joseph burrell before and policy chief of the e. u. i. he came out with a very peculiar statement to be a few days ago that europe is some kind of garden and other than outside of europe . it's a jungle. you're not in the u. r. is turkey. part of that jungle. i mean, you know, joseph brown, he writes the very weird blogs. ok. but i mean, i think it's this is that tainted neil colonialism. it's still there. go ahead and ankara. so turkey has nothing to john, go about living here to john, goes to the got it all depends from where you're look. 30 member of nato. ok, in the god them 30 of negotiating with you to can you know, just very close to gods, but they're still in the jungle. and this is why turkey is trying to make a party. so of balancing the nor trinity. and trying to combine the

changing jo, politics in duration and in the church gives jeff nice to be an east and west like a fan which you know, cheese in the family was sites the pressure, russia freshman on the one hand, the, you know, europe and the medic oppression, and on the other hand truck is trying now somehow to get the 1900 century balance of power. it is not new for jackie, but one point is clear as my sense from india and from to hit on said that the work is changing. the work is not anymore the same as before, the 24th of february and the rubble south. it's i think in a different way than trucking, i must say. so turkey is still in the, in the west, like your play, which is trying to make a maneuver with a link as the people think it's the most about the man think either in

a browser in washington dc. it's at least at the moment. but what the future will bring, we will see. well, you know, it's interesting when we heard really saying about going back to the 1900 century. what i find, you know, policy makers in the swamp in washington in london is that they, they don't know anything about history because the entire length of history of geo politics is balancing of powers. it's not about values, it's about relative power. that one has turkey. if you want turkey or not, that that's not the question here, but it's playing a marvelous job, a balancing, it's a interest. the global south takes that as a q a ran takes, that is a q china takes that is a q africa takes that is a q, but everybody in washington is oblivious to and apparently go ahead mom and i think it's very important to look. it was what joseph brown said

and understand implications. it was a very racist game, but it shows that there is no real difference between the liberals and the political regime in europe and states and the right wing republicans and the neo cons. they're basically saying the same thing for the rest of the world. one is just being more creative in language. the other is more crude like bolton, what, what's the difference between what bolton says and what joseph were office and impact? what were all said, these liberals in iran, these young liberals who are, i think that there are some sort of a garden in europe when or else makes the statements. he's flapping them in the face if basic, telling them that you're worthless to us. you're beneath us. you're part of the jungle. for the rest of us being in the jungle is just fine. we don't want to be

a part of that garden, the garden, that rapes and flanders, this deals money from venezuela. that's impose a see john, the cuban people for decades. this tried to strangle the riding people that's carried out genocide among the some of these in yemen. i survive to chemical attacks, those chemicals were given to saddam hussein by the gardeners in europe. so they don't see the reality as it is. they only see the reality as they would wish it to be. that is exactly why they miscalculated in russia. they thought they'll pull the plug. those imposed sanctions on russia and russia will collapse and his game over . so all those provocations that they carried on expanding eastwards, lying to russia, overthrowing the government in ukraine in imposing an antique or russian government, supporting the a right wing factory to send the nazis in ukraine. all of that was done because

they thought what their victory was inevitable. but they fail to recognize reality that russia is a huge power that iraq is a force to reckon with. look at whoever is drones. they are in ukraine, now. nato, with all the it's a, with all the claims to great, this can even deal with a few drowns this. these are countries that have been in charge for hundreds of years. and they, they think that they can govern over the rest of the world. they are now, they are beginning to understand that the parents, they will, they believe that they have a moral right to a professor to annoy. i mean, it will hum, it brings up a very good point here. mean we, irrespective of theory, neo conservative or liberal intervention, it's, it's all about had gemini, you know, you, it's had gemini, it's like putting lipstick on his gemini. it's still a gemini professor in new delhi. correct? i want to make 3 points. one about a head gemini,

is that it is preventing them to see you or, or even admit other countries perceptions. so they want to see everything by balance, and they don't recognize the opinion of other countries or even try to understand the different perceptions. so that's one bit about this balance so far, again, balance of bar from the western realist is about, you know, the west balancing bar with either the other powerful block which was earlier the soviet union. and now may be balancing with china. they never recognized the voice of the south. the south was never had a hedge, a monic weiss and so they never recognize it. so they don't matter in the balance so far. now when they have weakened, they need the south and therefore they're going to the un general assembly, which they didn't do earlier for any issue for palestine or far. ok, professor, professor professor, you said you had 3 points. you just said 2 of them are going to go to a short break away. and when we come back,

we'll do the 3rd boy again. we are going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break and, and after that short break, we'll can continue our discussion on the global south se with ah ah

ah welcome back to cross hock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. glad you were discussing the global south. ah, okay, it's go back to the good professor in dela,

you enumerating on 3 points you got to in before the break. now the 3rd one go right ahead. limited point is based on what up on him is said about they miscalculated russia. the point is that of notice that the west has various for us on this lama for be we have sino for bill. they have russo phobia and they have 4 be about the so of so so they cannot see the entire picture and they miscalculate. so they've made, we've also made strategic error. there are a lot of problems in the global south. i'm not saying that it's you know, even that whether it's a great jungle or not. of course, you know, that identity issues, ethnic issues, they're local war. but nonetheless, i don't think though with through it's a very aggressive militarist geo politics is helping to resolve any of these. that's why i think we are looking forward to this, this building transition innocence. and then with this,

i think all of us have good reason to admit there's going to be put forces that will resist it. and that's what we're seeing because when you had your mind starts declining, it red lashes out. and this is what we've seen, particularly in this century, but i would say there's a long 500 year history of it as well here. let's go back to anchor. let me quote, anthony blink and the secretary of state. you said, you know, this is again in the last new cycle. if washington does not set the rules for the world than someone else. well, i think someone else should. i think the global found, show it okay. hasn't the west cause enough trouble for the last 500 years for the rest of us? go ahead in ankara. first of all, joseph and i wrote a book which read the title. do more. 1 matter, yes, and american foreign policy and morale does not matter. as joseph 9 says, and then we have john mesh armor wrote the decline of the wrist and liberalism, i think at the moment we fear of discussion very much in

europe and in america about the what the remains dental of today is the joe political change of geopolitical realism and balance of power, or it's now whether global sour. so what bad on the west is an open question. i don't know. we will see how the global solid will develop further at the moment it's, there's not, there's a strong to contain or to block the west at the moment by that economy. no me to tell you. but the fact democratic countries of their problems, democratic, so se, face many challenge event, the, the liberal or the republicans, or democrats whatsoever, thinking class and also societies. they also do not know how to go further because the relative decline is indeed there was no doubt about it in

shows offical and in the political terms. but the west is still very strong in military terms. i'm. this is again, what matters national. i would military power is important, but let me go back to my home and here, i mean, one of the things, one of the most glaring things we've been watching over the last few years is the deed, dollarization of the global economy. if you don't that, that, you know, you know, you could say you could be afraid of tanks, but banks are more important at the end of the day. and this, this, this graph, the hang onto gemini, is destroying what gave them power in the 1st place. i mean, how many countries now are trading in their own domestic currencies? it is growing leaps and bounds, and people are ditching the dollar because of sanctions, secondary sanctions, price caps, all of this here. it's remarkable how they destroy their own power, muhammad, yes, and as

a result of this war and all the sanctions and the sanctions on other countries, what we now see is, for example, the running russia. they're developing a north south corridor which goes from east europe and asia, to iran, and the persian gulf. and thus russia canal trade. without even going through europe. they can trade with africa, they can trade with continents and in particular, india fremont. you also have now a trade route from central asia being developed to he run through and also to russia. so we see all these trade links being devoured, then exclude the united states and europeans. and on the other hand, since the united states has sanctioned so many countries they, they're encouraging them to trade in their own currency. so now you run in russia both are sanction. now they trade with these china becoming increasingly concerned . so they're developing alternative means to trade with iran, russia,

india is also going to be, they are going to need to trade with iran, russia, china, and hundreds of they have to also develop alternative means. in other words, with the americans in the europeans and the same issue that america with americans and europeans are doing is they themselves, by over using this weapon, this really barbaric weapon which targets ordinary people who are using it. they've created an incentive for other countries. both did move their trade routes away from them to carry on try their financial transactions without including them. and they are going to be huge, long term consequences. and the problem that the european americans, how is that the problems is at home or on the rise. they used to have this facade that they were democracies, which they never were. these are oligarchy is the, that when you, when the means of giving it disseminating information that are in the hands of a few, you can't cover the mark. but they had constantly for centuries on these,

for, for the last few days, have been telling their populations that you're, you're in the garden and the rest of the world is a jungle. but now, as things get worse in europe, in the united states, people are going to see no, this is not a garden for all of its own, is only a garden for the likes of brow and that class of people. so i think that not only are we going to see, are we seeing the rise and greater independence of the global south and asia from the west. but also we're going to see major fractures growing larger and emerging in the west itself. and in particular, in europe, in the coming months, you know, professor tonight, the, one of the things that really irks me in it's something i've been doing almost to the last 2 years. i really like asking my guess what, how do you understand the term rules based order? because i can, i can't figure out really what it means other than just we make the rules and you follow it. i mean is, is it a little bit more nuanced than that?

what's, what's the position in new delhi, for example, we'll look um how we understand rules based order is really that it has to include international law. it has to include the norms and traditions set in institutions where a number of countries have agreed on it that it's the w t o on dad, the various united, you know, the trade norms, et cetera. so if it all comes together, you can have a rule based order, but international law and what's been passed legally needs to be there at the same time. no one set of can. countries can impose a ruler based order outside these and say that we have exemptions from earlier security council resolutions or we can do the rito on the issue of palestine, but you cannot a so the rule based order, you know, then it doesn't mean very much bothers the dollar is concerned,

there is no other reserve currency as yet. yes, there is a dollar swap arrangement going on between many trading. knows especially with asia . and therefore, earlier, you know, from 80 percent of the dollar being used across trade. now it's almost about 50 between 50 and 60 percent, so there is a decline, but there's a long way to go, because at the moment there is no alternate reserve currency and i think what will, how will it will really be pushed if as we heard russia and opec agreed to cut out the federal dollar and do trade in, in their local currency. so we see all this, at least i do also in a very multiple kind of way, but we don't block out any one. we're not for revenge because of colonialism. we believe in a plural, multi paula world, where everyone can have a say and that the,

the united nations and should be strengthened and democrat dies, where the global south also has an equal voice. let's go to, let's go back to, to, around here. it's the, the issue of opec is really quite curious here because the united states is very upset. it's going to, it's going to look per sanctions against. what was that reimagined the policy with saudi arabia. and it's really interesting, and we had the spokesperson spokesperson coming out and saying, you know, you know, this is all the, the saudis, or it's this kind of, you know, it was unanimous, every single member of opec said this is a policy that we're going to pursue because it's not a person a further is their domestic agendas. i mean, their sovereignty. i mean that that's not hard to understand. but the american treat it is if the written the oil in iran in the oil. and so you every is, there's go ahead moment. i think there are 2 things that are really interesting here. one is the, the kind of the united states, just 3 years ago,

maybe it was. mom had been salmon was sitting aligned leave aside from his trump, was showing all the weapon systems that he was going to buy from the united states . and he and mohammed and so on, looks very embarrassed about the whole presentation in front of the reporters. and then now the united states has become so weak that even the cow that's been built is showing resistance that i think is very revealing. on the other hand, i think it's also important to keep in mind that the europeans and americans have brought this upon themselves. they destroy the rock, they sanctioned the rom, they sanctioned venezuela. they destroyed much of syria, which was an oil producing country. they destroyed the sudan, which was also an oil ex,

border when the united states and the european. and then there's libya, of course. so when he united states and that's your me, now i destroy these countries or impose sanctions on these countries. and there is a loss in global production or at the capacity for production, then, well, when they sanction the russians, then they get what they deserve. now they've created the shortage themselves. so now, because they've destroyed so many different countries, because the sanction so many different countries, we see poetic justice, they said they sanctioned the russia, they send the prices through the roof. all the sanction countries are making money . the russians are making money and europe goes into crisis. okay, am i sorry? who say we lost you there for a 2nd? i'm glad you're back here, but unfortunately, we're out of time. fascinating discussion in the global south something. crosstalk is going to continue to, to wanna explore here many and i guess inter an anchor and a new delhi. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our

t. see you next time. remember prosper. ah, ah, ah, ah . oh, when i was showing wrong, when old just don't hold any world that you have to say, proud disdain becomes the advocate. an engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart,

we choose to look for common ground. 19 c, u. s. s. i was returning to peaceful life with the newspapers, didn't report ongoing massacres and the ukrainian ssr, according to intelligence ukrainian nationalists and the ukranian insurgent army, led by romans forgive. each perpetrated these atrocities for huge before, but that was school and what i should yourself the new way you would be wise to review. i wish. but as of course, we'll do immune novels to the plot of it was the head of the n k v d sabotaged department of the time he was tossed with stopping the atrocities in ukraine for a good reason. general suit of blunt was very familiar with the situation he had experienced fighting the nationalists before the wall. get the movie, you know, named lovelyn chicken garcia, delights in nevada. so didn't know could amy. my name is paulette bunch. logan me.

the task was tremendously difficult, but suit blantan was determined to complete it. he had personal accounts to settle with the ukrainian nationalists with a ford vehicles look at them business and you'll clean the korea de leon b. e l gully, or susanna, americans grey. you will, you, roy, you who did go through it is just such not critical to those healing and provide you with stuff such in for a quote, it was night shift october 3rd to finance student info which helps washing. we're usually thrown with them that role in your storm were with that of choice. you to lose your heroes, our 2nd year 50 as.