no crazy, but it is black. but so give me the task was tremendously difficult, but suit up blunt, it was determined to complete it. we had personal accounts, the central with the ukranian nationalist ah, ah ah. hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things considered? i'm peter lavelle much the chagrin of the west, china in the global south have not condemned or isolated russia over the conflict in ukraine. in fact, the opposite appears to have happened. the global south does not embrace the west demand of a rules based order or so called western values. in general, 500 years of western domination is coming to an end.

ah cross stuck in the global south. i'm joined by my guess, mohammed mirandi and in toronto, he is professor at the university of trying a new delhi. we have professor to annoy. she is professor emeritus at the school of international studies at newer university. and in ankara we cross who, who st. body. he is president of the foreign policy institute across sac rules and effect. that means he can job any time you want. and i always appreciate mom and let me go to you person to run and welcome back to the program after such a long hiatus here. jake sullivan, that brilliant guy in washington, and he says, the stakes could not be higher. we are at an inflection point. i agree with him. okay. probably for reasons that he wouldn't agree with me about. but nonetheless, we are an inflection point, and ukraine has put it all in relief. go ahead mohammed. well, we are at a major infection point, and i think it's far too late for the americans to do anything about it. the united

states is rapidly on the decline. they continue with their and this war as an occupations. the nice it is basically a military machine and it constantly feeds that military machine. and meanwhile, the rest of the global south is, is on the rise. i mean, when one side is on the decline, the other side rises whether in or whether it's in relative terms or otherwise. so i think that actually this winter will make things much clearer. yeah, because europe moves towards crisis. and as the united states has to carry the burden of europe, it's not as if the united states doesn't suffer nice. it does offer. and the nice is also doesn't benefit from a week and broken euro even if there is it. if they force

a divorce between europe and russia to their own benefit, when a broken euro is, is a wage that the magazine has to carry with it. so it's not a win for the united states. meanwhile, china continues to evolve. iran is now used to the sanctions even though the united states has tried desperately to the same life, the country. and it didn't work and it's not going to work. iran is now a member of the shanghai cooperation organization in the summit meeting and was focused on there were major and agreements between the wine and russia. you run in china. iran in the spec is on russia and china, india wanting to do business with russia to re run through the whole of asia is changing, the math is changing and there's really nothing that the united is can do it. a professional i am in in new ellie. the last time you were on the program. i think we talked about the, the g 7 they had met and i asked you,

what was the reaction in india and you said not much. ok, it doesn't make the front page, it's not a major headline. this point of bits inflection point. i think it's really true because the united states is forcing your either with us or against this. and the global south says, well, we are not going to make a decision. we don't fear you, and we don't really respect you anymore. that's the inflection point. go ahead in new delhi. well, i think the global house has not kept quiet. they what this thing is with through their policy of neutrality, and they talked to state even though they do not want war, or they want, you know, respect, serenity, etc. i think they understand the russian position and their security concerns and as far as they're concerned and the west is concerned or any other big grouping is concerned, they want neutrality, which means strategic autonomy. an independent foreign policy. they do not want to

be pressured into this site or that site or to somebody else's waters. so this warren, ukraine is not the war of the global. so, and they've seen the differences of how the, with st this water, ukraine, and how it treats the wars that you know, of into engine rich based thought in the global thoughts, whether it's iraq or you know, whether supporting the saudis in yemen or libya. the attitude they have to was refugees from conflicts. so there is this element of racism. and the south is saying, no, we don't want to be bought off well off this war. sure. you bring up a very good point. let's go to where it gets to anchor, who st. joseph burrell before and policy chief of the e. u. i. he came out with a very peculiar statement to be a few days ago that europe is some kind of garden and other than outside of europe

. it's a jungle. you're not in the u. r. is turkey. part of that jungle. i mean, you know, joseph brown, he writes the very weird blogs. ok. but i mean, i think it's this is that tainted neil colonialism. it's still there. go ahead and ankara. so turkey has nothing to jangle about very near to, john goes to the got it all depends from where you're look. 30 member of nato, for kids in the garden, 30 of negotiating with you to can you not just me to close the garden, but they're still in the jungle. and this is why turkey is trying to make a party. so of balancing the nor trinity and trying to combine the changing geo politics in duration and in the church gives jeff we used to be an east and west like a fan which you know, cheese in the sandwich. what sites the pressure russia freshman on the one hand the

you to europe and the medic oppression. and on the other hand, i'm checking trying now somehow to get the 1900 century balance of power. it is not new for jackie, but one point is clear as my sense from india and from to hit on said that the work is changing. the work is not the same as before trying to sort of february. and the global south is, i think, in a different way than turkey. so turkey is still in the, in the west like your play, which is trying to make a maneuver with a link as the people think it's the most about the man think either in a browser in washington dc. is it this at the moment? but what the future will bring, we will see. well, you know, it's interesting when we heard really saying about going back to the 1900 century when i played the policy makers in the swamp in washington in london, is that they,

they don't know anything about history because the entire length of history of geo politics is balancing of powers, it's not about values, it's about relative power. that one has turkey. if you want turkey or not, that that's not the questionnaire, but it's playing a marvelous job of balancing its interest. the global south takes that as a q. a ran takes that is a q china takes that is a q africa takes that is a q, but everybody in washington is oblivious to at apparently go head mom and i think it's very important to looking was what joseph well said and understand implications. there was a very races name, but it shows that there is no real difference between the liberals and the political regime in europe and states and the right wing republicans and the neocons. they're basically saying the same thing for the rest

of the world. one is just being more creative in language. the other is more crude like bolton, what, what's the difference in what bolton says and what joseph were else as an impact? what were all said, these liberals in iran, these young liberals who are, i think that there are some sort of a guard in europe when or else makes the statements. he's flapping them in the face if basic, telling them that you're worthless to us. you're beneath us. you're part of the jungle. for the rest of us being in the jungle is just fine. we don't want to be a part of that garden, the garden that rapes lenders that steals money from venezuela. that's impose a see john cuban people for decades. this tried to strangle the riding people that's carried out genocide. along with some of these in yemen. i survive to chemical attacks,

those chemicals were given to saddam hussein by the gardeners in europe. so they, they don't see the reality as it is. they only see the reality as they would wish it to be. that is exactly why they miscalculated in russia. they thought they'll pull the plug. those imposed sanctions on russia and russia will collapse and it's game over. so all those provocations that they carried on expanding eastward, lying to russia, overthrowing the government in ukraine and imposing an antique or russian government, supporting the a right wing, fascist, and the nazis in ukraine. all of that was done because they thought what their victory was inevitable. but they fail to recognize reality that russia is a huge power that iraq is a force to reckon with. look at whoever is drones, they are in ukraine, now. nato, with all the it's for,

with all the claims to great, this can even deal with a few drowns this. these are countries that have been in charge for hundreds of years. and they, they think that they can govern over the rest of the world. they are now, they are beginning to understand that the parents, they will, they believe that have a moral right to a professor to annoy. i mean, it will hum, it brings up a very good point here. mean we, irrespective of theory, neoconservative or liberal intervention, it's, it's all about had gemini, you know, you, it's had gemini, it's like putting lipstick on his gemini. it's still a gemini professor in new delhi. correct? i want to make 3 point one about her gemini, is that it is preventing them to see you or, or even admit other countries perceptions. so they want to see everything by then lence, and they don't recognize the opinion of other countries or even try to understand the different perceptions. so that's one, but about this balance so far again,

balance so far from the western realist is about, you know, the west balancing far with the, the other powerful block which was earlier the soviet union. and now maybe balancing with china. they never recognized the voice of the south. the south was never had a hedge, a monic weiss and so they never recognized it so they don't match the balance so far. now when they have weakened, they need the salt and therefore they're going to the un general assembly, which they didn't do earlier. put any issue for palestine all or ok. professor professor, you said you had 3 points. you just said 2 of them are going to go to a short break. and when we come back, we'll do the 3rd point. ok. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break will, can you continue our discussion on the global south se without the the the

the the business. and you clean the daily shoes and you made it comes. graham, when you wrote, you just got to really is just such a group. we can also provide you with such a circle, even with arthur, of the different sit until you get thrown with them the problem and you're still there with you. i wish there was a few seconds history. i a your where i'm both in the study skills with meaningful choice thought it was for me to on, on i thought it was huge in the longer you bullshit. just a push to, to stream to put him on. because or you know, your course or do school coast. i don't know who you're i know for the dollars a year because it's going to use for us to play in finance is come on

with ah, a talk with the school. i hope that i see a, with

a ford edge that also choice issue somebody over there, both of those, but zimmer, with a lot of video, when you look out to you up boils up with an idea raise, you know, that way they don't like a welcome back across stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. glad

you were discussing the global south. ah. okay, it's go back to the good professor in della you were enumerating on 3 point you got to end before the break. now the 3rd one go right ahead. limited point is based on what up an is said about. they miscalculated russia. the point is that of notice that the west has various 4 wheels on there, this lama for b. we have sino for be. they have russo phobia and they have 4 be about the so so, so they cannot see the entire picture and they miscalculate. so they've made, we've also made strategic error. there are a lot of problems in the global south. i'm not saying that it's you know, even that whether it's a great jungle or not. of course, you know that identity issues, ethnic issues, they're local war. but nonetheless,

i don't think though with through it's very aggressive, militarist geo politics is helping to resolve any of these. that's why i think we are looking forward to this, this building transition. and then i think all of us have good reason to admit there's going to be forces that will resist it. and that's what we're seeing. because when you had your mind starts declining, it red lashes out. and this is what we've seen, particularly in this century. but i would say there's a long, 500 year history of it as well here. let's go back to anchor. let me quote, anthony blink and the secretary of state. you said, you know, this is again in the last new cycle. if washington does not set the rules for the world than someone else, well, i think so. what else should i think the global south show it? okay. hasn't the west cause enough trouble for the last 500 years for the rest of us? go ahead in ankara. first of all, joseph and i wrote a book which read the title do more. 1 matters yes,

and american foreign policy and morale does not rather as joseph 9 says, and then we have john mesh armor wrote the decline of the rest and liberalism. i think the moment we fear of discussion very much in europe and america about the what the remains dental of today is the joe political change of geopolitical realism and balance of power are now whether global south bedroom said the west is an open question. i don't know, we will see how the global solid really develop further at the moment. it's, there's not a strong to contain or to block the west at the moment by that economy. no me to turn this pack. if the democratic countries, their problems democratic, so se faced many challenges and the, the liberal, or the republicans,

or democrats whatsoever thinking class and also societies. they also do not know how to go further because the relative decline is indeed there for the west. no doubt about it. it's just awful in the political terms, but the west is still very strong in meditative terms. and this is, again, what matters. the national i military power is important, but let me go back to my home and here, i mean, one of the things, one of the most glaring things we've been watching over the last few years is the deed dollarization of the global economy. if you don't it that, that, you know, you know, you could say you could be afraid of tanks, but banks are more important at the end of the day. and this, this, this graph, the hang onto gemini, is destroying what gave them power in the 1st place. i mean, how many countries now are trading in their own domestic currencies?

it is growing leaps and bounds, and people are ditching the dollar because of sanctions, secondary sanctions, price caps, all of this here. it's remarkable how they destroy their own power mohammed. yes, and as a result of this war and all the sanctions and the sanctions on other countries, what we now see is, for example, iran and russia, they're developing a north south corridor which goes from east europe and asia to iran and the persian gulf. and thus, russia canal trade without even going through europe. they can trade with africa, they can trade with continent and in particular, india fremont. you also have now a trade route from central asia being developed to he run through and also to russia. so we see all these trade links being developed that exclude the united states and europeans. and on the other hand, since the united states has sanctioned so many countries they,

they're encouraging them to trade in their own currency. so now running russia both are sanction. now they trade with china becoming increasingly concerned, so they're developing alternative means to trade with iran, russia, india is also going to be they are going to need to train with iran, russia, china, and hundreds of they have to also develop alternative means. in other words, with the americans in the europeans and the same is from that america. so with americans and europeans are doing is they themselves, by over using this weapon, this really barbaric weapon which targets ordinary people buy over using it. they've created an incentive for other countries. both did move their trade routes away from them to carry on try their financial transactions without including them . and they are going to be huge, long term consequences. and the problem that the european americans have is that the problems is at home or on the rise. they used to have this facade that they

were democracies, which never were. these are oligarchy is the, when you, when the means of giving it disseminating information that are in the hands of a few, you can't cover the mark, but they had constantly for centuries. are these, for the last few decades have been telling. there are populations that you're, you're in the garden and the rest of the world is a jungle. but now as things get worse in europe, in the united states, people are going to see no, this is not a garden for all of its own. is only a garden for the likes of brow and that class of people. so i think that not only are we going to see, are we seeing the rise and greater independence of the global south and asia from the west. but also we're going to see major fractures growing larger and emerging in the wes itself. and in particular, in europe, in the coming months in a professor tonight, the one of the things that really irks me in it's something i've been doing almost to the last 2 years. i really like asking my guess what,

how do you understand the term rules based order? because i can, i can't figure out really what it means other than just we make the rules and you follow it. i mean is, is it a little bit more nuanced than that? what's, what's the position in new delhi, for example, we're look um how we understand rules based order is really that it has to include international law. it has to include the norms and traditions set in institutions where a number of countries have agreed on it that it's the w, t o r dad, various united, you know, the trade or norms, et cetera. so if it all comes together, you can have a rule based order, but international law and what's been passed legally needs to be there at the same time. no one set of can. countries can impose a ruler based order outside these and say that we have exemptions from earlier

security council resolutions or we can do the rito on the issue of palestine, but you cannot a so the rule based order, you know, then it doesn't mean very much bothers the dollar is concerned, there is no other reserved guarantee as yet. yes, there is a dollar swap arrangement going on between many trading partners, especially with asia. and therefore, earlier, you know, from 80 percent of the dollar being used across trade. now it's almost about 50 between 50 and 60 percent, so there is a decline, but there's a long way to go, because at the moment there is no alternate reserve currency and i think what will, how will it will really be pushed if as we heard russia and opec agreed to cut out the federal dollar and do trade in, in their local currency. so we see all this, at least i do also, you know,

very multiple kind of way, but we don't block out any one. we're not revenge because of colonialism. but we believe in a plural, multi paula world, where everyone can have a say and that the, the united nations and should be strengthened and demo chord dice, where the global south also has an equal voice. let's go to, let's go back to around here. it's the, the issue of opec is really quite curious here because the united states is very upset. it's going to, it's going to look per sanctions against. what was that reimagined the policy with saudi arabia. and it's really interesting, and we had the spokesperson spokesperson coming out and saying, you know, you know, this is all the, the saudis, or it's this kind of, you know, it was unanimous, every single member of opec said this is a policy that we're going to pursue because it's not a person a, a further is their domestic agendas. i mean, their sovereignty. i mean that, that's not hard to understand. but the american treat it is if the written the oil

in iran in the oil. and so you, every is, there's go ahead, mom, and i think there are 2 things that are really interesting here. one is the decline of the united states. just 3 years ago, maybe it was, mom had been sandman, was sitting a line lead, aside from his trump was showing all the weapon systems that he was going to buy from the united states. and he and mohammed and so on, looked very embarrassed about the whole presentation in front of the reporters. and then now the united states has become so weak that even the cow that's been built is showing resistance that i think is very revealing. on the other hand, i think it's also important to keep in mind that the europeans and americans have brought this upon themselves. they destroyed the rock, they sanctioned the rom,

they sanctioned venezuela. they destroyed much of syria, which was an oil producing country. they destroyed the sudan, which was also an oil ex, border when the united states and the european. and then there's libya, of course. so when he united states in its european allies, destroy these countries or impose sanctions on these countries. and there is a loss in global production or at the capacity for production, then, well, when they sanction the russians, then they get what they deserve. now they've created the shortage themselves. so now, because they've destroyed so many different countries, because the sanction so many different countries, we see poetic justice, they said they sanctioned the russia. they send the prices through the roof. all the sanction countries are making money. the russians are making money and europe goes into crisis. okay, am i sorry? who say we lost you there for a 2nd? i'm glad you're back here, but unfortunately,

we're out of time. fascinating discussion in the global south something. crosstalk is going to continue to, to wanna explore here many and i guess inter, an anchor and in new delhi. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c, you next time, remember prosper. ah, ah, no. when i was showing wrong, when i'll prove, just don't hold any world. yes, to shape out disdain becomes the advocate. an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground.

19 o u. s. s. i was returning to peaceful life, but the newspapers didn't report ongoing massacres and the ukrainian ssr. according to intelligence ukranian nationalists and the ukrainian insurgent army, led by romans forgive each perpetuated these atrocities for huge reserves baffled the bellows blown well by shinjuku. self both knew it would be wise to review. i wish to put in the whole course. we'll do a manual novels to the plant of the head of the n. k. v d sabotaged department of the time he was tossed with stopping the atrocities in ukraine for a good reason. general sort of blunt was very familiar with the situation he had experienced fighting the nationalists before the wall. get the movie, you know, named lovelyn. she can get a 0. do it's inevitable. so didn't know, creamy. my name is paulette bunch rogan me. the task was tremendously difficult but suit blantan was determined to complete it. he had personal accounts to settle with

the ukrainian nationalists with with a ford vehicles were good than business and you'll clean them priyah de leon b. e l gully. not a susanna. americans, grey, you. leroy, who just got to really just touch, not group to the ceiling and provide you with so such in for a quote, it was nice if october 3rd, if not sooner info, which help wash him get you thrown with him the throw lindstrom or would that was true, i wish to lose your ears. our 2nd you suggest.