like to see this come to an end. ah. to discuss these issues and more on joined by my guess here in moscow, glenn decent. he is a professor at the university of south eastern norway as well as author of the book list of phobia propaganda in international politics. and we have maxine switch golf . he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations are joining cross back rules and the fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. let's start with glen here. glenn. i just jot down a number of countries here. saudi arabia, turkey, the united arab emirates, india, south africa. now throw in opec plus, i'm not too long ago, these were considered, you know, if not, i'm staunch american eyes, very supportive of the west. and these are significant countries,

and opec by itself is very important. they're not in line with washington's demands that the world condemn russia. how significant is that? go ahead. ah, it's very significant. and this clarification about the world order though, also stablished after the cold war, that a liberal hedge him on folks around the united states has come to an end. and so again, we see that the rest of the world and not supporting down to russian sanctions is pretty much a nato plus one full of countries who have joined to sanctions. and it's quite significant because i think it's approximately 85 percent of the world now live in country who haven't sanctioned russia. on the contrary, you see the opposite of the happening. you see s e o expanding, which is to some high corporation organization. you said the brakes now expanding, taking more competencies. so again, this doesn't mean that they the same support, russia, again, vast majority do not,

but they also do not support the western sanction. so the point isn't that we're replacing the american order with a russian centric order. of course, not them would be ridiculous, but the order that's coming to an end is this western centric order, where effectively the united states was able to dictate the rest of the world followed. and again, my many countries are seeing this with a view to great opportunities. you mentioned a few country, but also latin america here from brazil, argentina, many countries are now saying that, you know, doesn't mean that support russia, but now they're vulnerability to us. pressure is diminishing because they're always b. now, other centers of power which they can lean towards. if the u. s. r shows them too hard. so the world is definitely changing as well. there's no denying this. yeah. max also and there's another angle to this following glen. had to say here, all the countries i mentioned with glen men mentioned is that there is a,

this new thurston desire for sovereignty. because this is what people, you know, the united states. it with our nato allies go around, threatening everyone, you know, you know, from anywhere destroying your currency, destroying your financial system, like what they did with turkey, nato member needs these countries that are coalescing around these groups that it's not confrontational, what they're saying. i really love the word that glenn is competent, you know we were competent for our own foreign policy. we're competent enough to know what our national interest it's. i hate how the west always. it's us or them as it's confrontational, when i think that these new centers are saying, you know, we don't want to be confrontational with you, but we don't want to get involved in decision making that adversely affects us. go ahead. well, in 1999, thomas friedman, the college for the new york times written that we didn't know what to call the new world order by what it was. so we called it. but what,

by what it wasn't. so they said, you know, the post bipolar world, perhaps we don't know exactly what world water that is now. margin is going to look like what it is today. but we can perhaps argue that what we're seeing now is the beginning of the post unipolar world. as we know, it seems to break up of the so if union in the bipolar system, i think the processes are multi happening and simultaneously might the level of the local level domain. we still have the core of nuclear states, but we still have and it's, you know, in that sense it's, you know, the oldest centric world. so the say we perhaps have the economic do awfully in the form of us in china and the kind of deal with kinetic level. but we also, as you and you and glen are good, are seen the emergence of

a great number of states for seeking greater autonomy. and while most of them are still very much hooked to the western financial institutions that are very much dependent on the international institutions where the west has a dominance, we do see the new try for, for sovereignty and for southern decision making, especially in critical forms. and many of them, even though they vote against russia on the un general assembly as both of the level of beliefs and bolted level of people see that despite that is happening now on the battlefield. a crane or an artist other domains as kind of the beginning of the new post colonialism. so to say, such a really good point because there is that angle to it as well. you know, going, if you, if you listen to western leaders and pundents media, this is a struggle of good versus evil,

democracy versus photography. and they love to play this kind of thing and all that . but new to core, things that go across everything that we really said is it is dollar privilege. the dominance of the dollar in which we have seen that even though the united states is considers europe. it's ally, it's. is that a pretty good job of damaging the, the euro. ok, and making the, the entire euro see are very dependent on the u. s. that's a strike with, that's a strike in the right direction for the us. and there's also energy, which again is kind of counter intuitive step off these western leads that are these greeny green maniacs. but they do want to be able to control energy. and i'd also throw in other commodities, so it cuts this way as well because what, there's a huge difference between money and energy. i would say you can print money, but you can't print energy. and this is why i would even go as far as to say,

one of the reasons why the north stream to wipe wines were damaged when well, energy is obviously the life of blood in any economy. and this is been one of the problem stuff we've had in the west during this uniform order. the problem is and during global hedge of money. so you can afford to make a lot of mistakes because you can absorb the punishment, but over time, the problem. so start to accumulate and again, if you see now this idea that we could just sanction all the rush energy and we will be fine. i mean we're cutting off the life blood lesson, but they say, well, we can diversify. but can we? because again, this is not our 1st mistake, spoiling relations with the russians. we also put sanctions on defense, women against the iranians. now eliminated compared to how this is all. i mean you're, you're, if you're pushing too hard against everyone, especially the energy producers. you know, it's not worth this right or wrong or good versus evil. it's just, it's, it's physics, it's reality that economy will grind to a halt. and so, but on,

on their 1st point i agree as well. i don't think there's of course, this conflict, this has been dimensions is very complex, but this attempt to reduce it down to being a conflict between democracy versus authoritarianism. first of all, it is ridiculous. this is very poor. he respects to understand this conflict respectively. the replacement of saying that if a competition between good and evil, we always done this with the russians, to be honest with your parents against see, i think people's this last, you know, civilization versus don't barbarians. we are, we always, we always had this is you simplify everything about the narrative of good versus evil. it's good for mobilizing support among the population, but it doesn't quickly with the right tools to actually solve this conflict, which is demonstrating for everyone why you're absolutely right,

particularly is in the shop. forget emptying out and you're getting colds and the winter, the good. any good versus evil thing, a wanes and importance here. max, one of the things that's very interesting is the, because the way the west is framed the conflict in ukraine is i see that this is a ukranian democracy or whatever. but when you go out outside of the nato world bubble, it's pretty amazing. russia, the west is declared war on russia and in a variety of ways. and the rest of the world is almost in awe is being able to stand up to the entire thrust of all of western institutions. and it's the west that is going into recession and russia is coming out of it is. i've talked to many people in the global south that are just amazed that the all powerful west doesn't seem all that powerful anymore. well that, that, but also there is one, i think,

token of the crumbling kind of system in the very fact that secretary of lincoln had to say, and i'm not quote directly something of the kind that the west that the world cannot live without usa leadership. i think the very fact that he's talking about it is symptomatic in the sense that will a, i had just heard that the world has lived without the u. s. literature for most of us history. but it's not to, to degrade of the great many things that the united states has done for the world. and i think it's one of the, of, you know, things that russia should totally avoid doing as, as this. so if you and, and the iron curtain that is full and now is full, and on the opposite sanity left russia, that is shutting down itself from the rest of the world. and right now to be there . and i actually have been blinking for remarkably right here. if washington does not set the rules for the world than someone else will. well, all okay,

may be a collective group of countries well or different organizations working through consensus. you, when you're agreeing, i mean, i don't see the, the why it shouldn't be so dramatic because the world is in pretty bad shape. maybe there should be better collective leadership. go ahead. no, i agree. and i also have to be said this constant warning from the usa for china's to new hedge along. but it has to be point out like china will not occupied the decision to us. having the 9th is still, there will not be another sole superpower, capable of actually dominating the entire planet. i did this era is over so, so the horse with lincoln is expressing is the fact that the u. s. won't on his own . be able to dictate the rules of the game. and again, this is a common phrase from united states. keep in mind that obama, when he was, and launching this economic election agreements in, in east asia hills, the role is that in the new york times. so he warned us, listen,

the future on the economic relations in china. the rule should not be written by china. it should be written by us. and it's very sarah, some mentality. again, it's up. it's just like in europe is locked. russia being the center, it's not going to happen. and also in a choice of china going to dominate everything. it's not going to happen at all. but it's this transition from unit polarity to molten polarity in which it part of process diplomacy ends. it's not one centered dictating to the rest, but to promise it now instead has to be compromised and negotiations, which have become locked the words in the past few years. but this is how this is something we have to adapt because the distribution of power no longer reflects unit polarity, and that's just the reality which states should address and adopted. also, united states for its own interests. yeah. for its own interest, central it, it's, it's all too often forgotten. you know, i mean, joe biden became present. he said he would ever of middle class foreign policy.

well, it's anything but i gentlemen, i'm going to, i've been here, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll need to stay with our ah, ah, ah, with

ah, lisa canter, russian state total narrative. i've stayed as i phone and ignore some scheme div, asking him then i'll sons them up for a group in 55 with. okay, so mine is $25.00 must be the one else with we will ban in the european union the kremlin. yup. machine restate on russia for date and school r t spoke mckibbin, our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with

me. ah, welcome back to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter. well, this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news. ah, let's go back to mac, sierra, moscow, chunky. we were talking about mentality in the, at the end. the 1st part of the program here. i'm sure you came across joseph burrows, gardening essays about you know, how europe is the garden, and you have to fight off the jungle invading the, the garden. and then he had a follow up blog to try to go, you know, he dug himself in very deep using a gardener's motif here. but i mean, this is really

a mentality and glen was touching upon and isn't, you know, we have these western leaves. they can't imagine a world being run differently, which is we so ignorant of history. empires rise and fall, nation states come and go. i mean, if anything about history is it's all about flux, but we have these western delete that have this kind of fukuyama believe that we're at the end of history and nothing can change and everybody is in there right position, which is a historical go ahead. well, with all the criticism, i think we're all a good point of by arguing that the european prosperity is very much dependent on the security guarantees from the u. s. and chief energy from russian ship was from china. and that's none of that is in place, except perhaps for even greater dependence on the united states in terms of its military and security infrastructure. well, i think the, the, the, the very wording that was used by burrell, in particular, but also by

a great number of western pundits and policymakers reflect the sense it could have off mentality to continue to live in the comfort zone. the you. so you can then 99 is where, where the rest of the world has never had that comfort zone in the, in the 1st place. but secondly, that the comfort zone is no more even for the west. so to continue to talk to use the language, there was adequate perhaps in 90 ninety's now that they exactly as, as when pointed out that the district of power no longer left uniform. heritage is absolutely ridiculous. one other thing, i think what we're seeing now is the system of checks and balances across the globe was changing dramatically. the one that emerged after world war 2. but it's also changing inside the united states. will see this, you know, the party fights seek to change this, then the system that has actually made united states what it is was recently,

but it's also going to projecting to the need to change the system of checks and balances and accumulate even more power that you know, automatically produces culture counter offensive and push back from russia from china and from other states that it's just natural that i think of not very well appreciated across the western leads where people do get it. i would say, i absolutely agree with you here. you haven't yet again, part of the postwar settlement plan of as it were, bretton woods and, and what not in the the united states in the west, in general have been able to financial eyes, their economies. and it worked for a long time and believe company, the west became very, very rich and the envy of the world. but let's so slowly coming to an end, you can just print so much money. you can, you can't print prosperity. um, you can use a wise monetary policy from time to time fiscal policy. well that it's coming to an end that they're come to the end of their rope here. because as i kind of alluded

to all already in the program, is it instability will come through real things, oil, grain, ok. i'm a natural gas. this is one of the reasons why are people wanting when they see they economic system that the, the west is created is become unstable. and they're going to start seeing a level of ms. ration in the west. people on a go with what it has real value in. it's really remarkable for viewers. we're looking at currencies. no one would have thought including high cell there before february 24th it a, very soon the russian rouble would become a hard currency because we are treated as us off currency before. people actually want rubles now because it's, it's not these rubles, are backed up by real things commodities there. well, well, that's correct. and, well, of course, here you could have a system next on the international economy run by countries without the natural

resources. however, this was ever since the repeal of the corn was in britain, no idea was one. they will do the high tech aspect of the economy and the financial and the rest would the mayor export foreign products or, or national resources. however, this is not the international distribution of labor we currently having because you see that outside the west, this is where almost all the natural resources are. but we also now see that the they have their own financial instruments. they have their own bank stop the payment systems and also as especially with china leaving and this is they also dominate high tech area. they know the developing their own transportation corridors, dam i, one after another. you see that the, to the west of necessarily have this is real strategic industry which creates huge dependencies from the rest of the world. so instead you see that the demand strategic industry isn't dependencies. an operator will reside in other countries

like russia within our oldest national resources. and again, the people who lost you out of the room only a year ago by suggesting that, you know, because russia wasn't a real economy, also gas station upgrading us economy. this was kind of the line and we were thrown, but again, we in the west, we do everything at the russian economy. i mean, it was stolen. what was 300000000000 from a central bank were cut off from the swift payment system. put huge sanctions on this entire economy, which stopped importing energy even though it's destroying, you're doing oldest things. and now suddenly, you know, we see that the economists recently noted the russia from recovering. it's going, it's going good will go back to growth while european are thinking. so obviously this is not all to expect us, so we don't have to reassess some of the assumption which we haven't. and that's

right there glenn will. that's that's the nature of the beat here. but it's very true, this is what really scares me because there isn't a reassessment of you know, how do we get into this mass because they won't accept that they've worked under false assumptions. i've been saying for months now, bad narratives, great bad outcomes and they can reassess that because it goes back down to the moral purity issue. that is really blocking their a same view of geo politics. and if speech go ahead, maps, well, you know, isn't any major confrontation, the 1st level of the confrontation is kind of ideological one. and when the opponent see that their narrative isn't going through, the confrontation falls down to the can a certain level of which is money. and i think we've come through both of these stages now where you know, the west is continued to push the ideological narrative. and when it sees that it

doesn't fly in the cold go global south, we going to, you know, it switches gears to economic urgent and sanctions and all kinds of things. and when that doesn't help, you know, it goes to the 3rd level of confrontation, which is pretty much violence at terror. and then the military cars and, and of course, and where is certain, bifurcation points where either, you know, the policy makers in the west will take decision to continue to push for more kind of military pressure on russia than others that are in the if not supportive of russia then please continue their neutrality that is not favorable to western interest in this situation. or, you know, the big interests that are behind west politics. we know whether it's energy id just see others. bush, the elite to be more see more agreeable,

but pushed leads to, to, to seek more, some concessions and compromises where you have the right word in russian agreement capable exactly, day for before. for now, most of the western police are agreement and capable, but we'll see them fall one by one. recently when, when i want to kind of go on top of this year, the joseph burrell is easy to read and kind of make fun of okay. because i think he has a very antiquated view about history of what, how europe has gotten where it's gotten to. and i see this conflict at the center of this conflict then ukraine is. it would be the waning of 500 years of european western local control. it's coming to an end and it's coming to end very rapidly,

much basket. and we would have every thought, maybe it's because our height levels of technology go ahead. well, the reason why it's difficult to imagine is because we never had this before. and then we talked about world orders to maine, the dominant world, or whoever had one of the sovereign nation state to show us a stablished day with the peace on the fall in 1648, then the main one. but again, even this was limited to european, there was sovereignty for civilized peoples, not the barbarians outside of europe. this was kind of the logic and, and this most of them replaced after world war 2 year, a bipolar system in which you have very diminished sovereignty for all except the 2 pulse of our in the after world war s are out of the cold war. we have uniform order and we with them to think of this is most multilateralism because they wants the western countries collect having just collect the original niche. but now this distribution power is gone. also, the legitimacy behind the system is completely gone because it can't have

a world or without the legitimacy as well. but the rest of the world to, for example, human rights and also limits what states could do an international system limit the use of force and step with being used to enable the use of force. so to excuse, you know, the other talking on people that bond unless the regime change less and they so, so it kind of the, the legitimacy have disappeared. now what we're going back to now is, you know, we're not going back to bipolar system even before world war 2, because that was a multiple r t, but only with european powers and united states. what we're going back to now is truly global, or multiple archie was, you know, china and you know, soon in there like all of this in non western countries is taking the top seats. this is something we never had before. so i can understand why, you know, a fellow like, you know what, i am going back to the colonial electrical, the rule of the jungle and europe is a jungle, is unless we go in and civilized the jungle, doesn't we? our garden, if you don't see less jungle, it will invade us. this is their enforcement rhetoric,

but it does reflect that we can't really imagine this a new world order, which is now coming. i mean, it's not in the future is already here, and it's happening very, very fast. which is why it's difficult to adjust. well, i would follow up on that. i would say that i used to work global agenda gemini and my introduction to the global hedge. i'm on when it sees its power cd, it will lash out, and i think that's exactly what we're seeing right now. and i think that's what it's collected, war, western war against russians. all my gentlemen, that's all we have want to thank all my guest here in moscow. i want to thank you for watching it here. are you next time? remember? oh noon . these are the federal to sweden c o. s. mission

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ah ah, african country join rights to protest. i'll demand the elimination of western interference in the continent's affairs. protest are seen in many countries. we condemn pressure on ethiopia by the west and the united states. i want to call on them to take their hands off ethiopia, with which they are terrorized in our country. moscow, warren, kiev may be planning to use a so called dirty bomb in a false flag operation and then blending the actions on the russian military. while some western politicians say that ramping up on nuclear.