there are some events planned to reach until the end of the year, including a meeting between the ministers of economy, finance, and information. and russia will take part and all of these meetings will put you through. and of course we support through the o. i seize russell green with his desire to build a good view, our corporation and science and education. as i use, i already as said, there will be a memorandum signed between our ministry of education and science, and the organization of islamic corporation move to work. it will be able the great contribution to strengthening the foundation of our trade in economic ties, us in future police, you as to the palestinian issue. we had a detailed discussion today. as you may recall, we think it necessary to stop the attempts to break down the international law

framework and the people we've and at the attempt said to go, sir, a prevents of the 2 state solution from happening. these attempts are indeed taking place and the principles of, of the other of school. so if you arab at peaceful initiatives which was a norm, so discovery um and will be proposed to by the king, a saudi arabia and jim of son 20 o 2. and that sir was approved by all the members of the oh, i see at the summit in tehran and the these are, you are being undermined at but to we think it is a pound duty not to fall for such attempts. suppose and mutual attempts to scream, replace the 2 state solution by who economists support measures for palestinians, few limbo parish of and we pay special attention to the efforts that are currently

being made or to help palestinians restore their unity. russia has, are held a several meetings with delegates from all palestine infections, egypt, algeria, them are also making similar efforts. i recently had a lot of productive contacts with those countries and other countries of the o i. c are active here as well. so we will continue this work and i hope that we will be able to discuss the palestine in question a further. and so that the o i c stands up a unified girl. okay. we just really thing there to sergei love ralph rushes, foreign minister, and he was giving a press conference after holding talks with the organization of islamic cooperation . and secretary general has st. graham, how

a whole host of issues been spoken about? we're right out of time. we'll bring them to you though, in the next number of hours going through the main highlights of that meeting. this is our international group also loses with hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . the conflict in ukraine is not only about which side will eventually prevail, the stakes are much higher. the outcome of this conflict will determine the nature of a new geopolitical order. the west is fighting russia to maintain its global hegemony . much of the world would like to see this come to an end. ah.

to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guest here in moscow. glenn decent. he is a professor at the university of south eastern norway as well as author of the book . listen, phobia propaganda, international politics. and we have maxine switch golf. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies and moscow state institute of international relations are joining cross back roles and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. let's start with glen here. glenn. i just jot down a number of countries here. saudi arabia, turkey, the united arab emirates, india, south africa. now throw in opec plus, i'm not too long ago. these were considered, you know, if not, um, staunch american allies, very supportive of the west. and these are significant countries. and opec by itself is very important. they're not in line with washington's demands that the

world condemn russia. how significant is that? go ahead, glen. ah, is very significant and this clarification about the world order that was established after the cold war, that of liberal hedge him on folks around the united states has come to an end. and so again, we see that the rest of the world and not supporting dante russell sanctions is pretty much on nato bus. a handful of countries square joined to sanctions. and is quite significant because i think it's approximately 85 percent of the world now live in country who haven't sanctioned russia. on the contrary, you see the opposite top the happening. you see a c o expanding which is to some high corporation organization. you said the brakes now expanding, taking more competencies. so, and again, this doesn't mean that they the same support, russia, again, vast majority do not, but they also do not support to the western sanction. so the point isn't here that

we're replacing the american order with a russian center. gordon, of course not. that would be ridiculous. but the order that's coming to an end is this western centric order were effectively united states was able to dictate the rest of the world followed. again, many countries are seeing this with a view to great opportunities. you mentioned a few country, but also latin america here from brazil, argentina, many countries are now saying that, you know, doesn't mean that support russia, but now they're vulnerability to us pressures diminishing because they're always being now other centers of power which they can lean towards. if the u. s. shows them too hard, so the world is definitely changing as well. there's no denying this max also, and there's another angle to this following glen. had to say here, all the countries i mentioned and when glen meant mentioned is that there is a, this new thurston desire for sovereignty. because this is what people, you know,

the united states, it with our nato allies around threatening everyone, you know, you know, from anywhere destroying your currency, destroying your financial system, like what they did with turkey, nato member, these companies, countries that are coalescing around these groups that it's not confrontational, what they're saying. i really love the word that glenn is competent. you know, we were, we're competing for our own foreign policy. we're competent enough to know what our national interest. that's it's, you know, i hate how the west always. it's us or them as it's confrontational, when i think that these new centers are saying, you know, we don't want to be confrontational with you, but we don't want to get involved in decision making that adversely affects us go ahead. well, in 1990 s the thomas friedman, the college for the new york times written that's what didn't know what to call the new world order by what it was. so we called it. but what, by what it wasn't. so they said, you know,

the post bipolar world. perhaps we don't know exactly what world water that is now, surgeon is going to look like what it is today. but we can perhaps argue that what we're seeing now is the beginning of the post unipolar world. as we know, it seems to break up of the soviet union in the bipolar system. i think the processes are, you know, multi happening and simultaneously might the level of the multi level domain. we still have the core of nuclear states, but we still have and it's, you know, in that sense it's, you know, the polish centric world. so to say, we perhaps have the economic do awfully in the form of us in china and the kind of deal with kinetic level. but we also, as you and you and glen are good, are seen the emergence of a great number of states for seeking greater autonomy. and while most of them are

still very much hooked to the western financial institutions are very much dependent on the international institutions where the west has a dominance. we do see the new tri for, for sovereignty and for suburb decision making, especially in critical forms. and many of them, even though they vote against russia on the un general assembly at both of the level of a lease. and both the level of people see that despite that is happening now from the battlefield. a crane or an artist other domains as kind of the beginning of the new post colonialism. so to say, such a really good point because there is that angle to it as well. you know, what if you, if you listen to western leaders and pundents media, this is a struggle of good versus evil democracy versus the talk procedure. they love to play this kind of thing and all that. but new to core,

things that go across everything that we really said is it is dollar privilege. the dominance of the dollar in which we have seen that even though the united states has considers europe. it's ally, it's. is that a pretty good job of damaging the, the euro. okay. and making the, the entire euro see are very dependent on the u. s. that's a strike with, that's a strike in the right direction for the us. and there's also energy, which again is kind of counter intuitive step off these western leads that are these greeny green maniacs. but they do want to be able to control energy. and i'd also throw in other commodities. so it, it cuts this way as well, because what, there's a huge difference between money and energy. i would say you can print money, but you can't print energy. and this is why i would even go as far as to say, one of the reasons why the north stream to life ones were damaged when well,

energy is obviously the life of blood in any economy. and this is been one of the problems stuff we've had in the west during this uniform order is another problem is and during global hedge of money. so you can afford to make a lot of mistakes because you can absorb the punishment. but over time, the problem, so start to accumulate. and again, if you see now this idea that we could just sanction all the rush energy and we will be fine. i mean we're cutting off the life blood. we listen, but they say, well, we can diversify, but can we? because again, this is not our 1st mistake, spoiling relations with the russians. we also put sanctions on defense, women against the iranians. now eliminated compared to how this is all. i mean, why you're, if you're pushed to hard against everyone, especially the energy producers, you know, it's not worth this right or wrong, or good or evil. it's just, it's, it's physics, it's reality that economists will grind to a halt. and so, but on the 1st point i agree as well, i don't think of course, this conflict,

this has been dimensions is very complex, but this attempt to reduce it down to being a conflict between democracy versus authoritarianism. first of all, it is ridiculous. this is very poor, he respects to understand this conflict, this suspect replacement, saying that if a competition between good and evil, we always done this with the russians. to be honest with this, also, your peons against the people says law. so you know, civilization versus dump barbarians. we are, we always, we always had this issue, simplifying everything down to a narrative of good versus evil. it's good for mobilizing a support among the population, but it, it doesn't quickly with the right tools to actually solve this conflict, which is demonstrating forever on why you're absolutely right. particularly is in the shop or get emptying out and you're getting colds. and the winter, the good,

any good versus evil thing, a wayne's and importance here. max. one of the things that's very interesting is the, because the way the west is framed the conflict in ukraine says, i see that this is a ukranian democracy or whatever. but when you go out outside of the nato world bubble, it's pretty amazing. russia, the west is declared war on russia and in a variety of ways. and the rest of the world is almost in awe is being able to stand up to the entire thrust of all western institutions. and it's the west that is going into recession and rushes coming out of it. i've talked to many people in the global south that are just amazed that the all powerful west doesn't seem all that powerful anymore. that well that, that, but also there is one, i think, token of the crumbling kind of system. it isn't the very fact that secretary of lincoln had to say,

and i'm not quote directly something of the kind that the west that the world cannot live without usa leadership. i think the very fact that he's talking about it is symptomatic in the sense that will a i had just are the world has lived without the u. s. literature for most of us history. but it's not to, to, didn't grade of the great many things that the united states has done for the world . and i think it's one of the, of, you know, things that russia should totally avoid doing as, as this. so if you and, and the iron curtain that is full and now is full and on the opposite sanity left russia, that is shutting down itself from the rest of the world. and right now, i actually have been blanking for remarkably right here in washington. that does not set the rules for the world than someone else will. well, all okay, may be a collective group of countries well or different organizations working through consensus. you, when you're agreeing, i mean, i don't see the,

the why you shouldn't be so dramatic because the world is in pretty bad shape. maybe there should be better collective leadership. go ahead. no, i agree. and i also have to be said this constant warning from the usa for china and you hedge along. but it has to be point out like china will not occupied decision to us have in the ninety's and want to will not be another sole superpower, capable of actually dominating the entire planet. i did this era is over so, so the horse with lincoln is expressing is the fact that the u. s. won't on his own, able to dictate at the rules of the game. and again, this is a common phrase from just keep in mind that obama, when he was, and launching this economic it will trade agreements in, in east asia hills, the role to solve that in, in new york time. so he warned us, listen, the future on the economic relations in china. the rule should not be written by

china. it should be written by us. and it's very sarah, some mentality. again, it's up. it's just like in europe is locked. russia being the center, it's not going to happen. and also in asia, china going to dominate everything. it's not going to happen. it's old, but it's this transition from unit polarity to multi polarity in which it part of process diplomacy ends. it's not one centered dictating to the rest, but to promise it now instead has to be compromised and negotiations, which have become locked rewards in the past few years. but this is how this is something we have to adapt because the distribution of power no longer reflects unit polarity and dust reality, which states should address and adopted also do not a states for its own interests. yeah, for its own interest central it, it's, it's all too often for god. you know, i mean, john joe biden became present. he said he would ever of middle class foreign policy . well, it's anything but i gentleman, i'm going to, i've been here, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break,

hunting specialist will new stay with our ah ah, a welcome back to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter. well, this is the home edition to remind you we're discussing some real news. ah let's go back to mac sierra moscow. i talked to, we were talking about mentality. so in the, at the end,

the 1st part of the program here. i'm sure you came across joseph burrell, gardening, essays about you know, how europe is the garden, and you have to fight off the jungle invading the, the garden. and then he had a follow up blog to try to go, you know, he dug himself in very deep using a gardener's motif here. but i mean, this is really a mentality and glen was touching upon and isn't, you know, we have these western leaves. they can't imagine a world being run differently, which is we so ignorant of history. empires rise and fall, nation states come and go. i mean, if anything about history it's, it's all about flux, but we have these western delete that have this kind of fukuyama believe that we're at the end of history and nothing can change and everybody is in there right position, which is a historical go ahead. well, with all the criticism, i think, bro, as a good point of by arguing that the european prosperity is very much dependent on

the security guarantees from u. s. and chief energy from russian ship was from china. and that's none of that is in place, except perhaps for even greater dependence on the united states in terms of military and security infrastructure. well, i think that the, the, the very wording that was used by braille in particular, but also by a great number of western pundits and policymakers reflect the sense of off mentality to continue to leave in the comfort zone. the you silly and then 99 is where, where the rest of the world has never had that conference zone in the, in the 1st place. but secondly, that the comfort zone is no more even for the west. so to continue to, to talk, to use the language that was adequate, perhaps in 90 ninety's. now that they exactly as when pointed out, that the district of power no longer left uniform. heritage is absolutely ridiculous. one other thing,

i think what we're seeing now is the system of checks and balances across the globe is changing dramatically. the one that emerged after world war 2. but it's also changing inside the united states. will see this, you know, the part of bites seek to change this, then the system that has actually made united states what it is, was recently, but it's also gonna projecting to the move to change the system, jackson biologist, and accumulate even more power that, you know, automatically produces culture counter offensive and push back from russia from china and from other states that it's just natural that i think this is not very well appreciated across the western elite where people do get it. i would say, i absolutely agree with you here. you haven't had me yet. again, part of the postwar settlement plan of as it were, bretton woods and, and what not in the, the united states in the west, in general have been able to financial eyes, their economies in it. it work for

a long time and believe comes in the west became very, very rich and the envy of the world, but less so slowly coming to an end. you can just print so much money. you can, you can't print prosperity. um, you can use a wise monetary policy from time to time fiscal policy. well that it's coming to an end that they're come to the end of their rope here. because as i kind of alluded to all already in the program, is it instability will come through real things, oil, grain, ok. i'm a natural gas. this is one of the reasons why are people wanting when they see they economic system that the, the west is created is become unstable. and they're eager to start seeing a level of the administration in the west. and people want to go with what it has real value in. it's really remarkable for viewers. we're looking at currencies. no one would have thought including high cell there before february 24th it a, very soon the russian rouble would become

a hard currency because we are treated as a soft currency before people actually want rubles now, because it's, it's not these rubles, are backed up by real things commodities. well, well that's, that's correct. and, well, of course here you could have a system next on the international economy run by countries without natural resources. however, this was ever since the repeal of the corn was in britain, no idea was one. they will do the high tech aspect of the economy and the financial and the rest, the mayor export the foreign products or, or national resources. however, this is not the international distribution of labor. we currently having because you see that outside the west is where almost all the natural resources are. but then we also now see that they have their own financial instruments that have their own banks down there on payment systems. also as especially with china leaving and they also dominate the high tech area. they know the developing their own

transportation corridors down one after another. you see that the, to the west of necessarily have this is real strategic industry which creates huge dependencies from the rest of the world. so instead you see that the demand strategic industry isn't dependencies. an operator will reside in other countries like russia within our oldest natural resources. and again, the people who lost you out of the room only a year ago by suggesting that, you know, because russia wasn't a real economy, also gas station upgrading us economy. this was kind of the line and we were thrown, but again, we in the west, we do everything at the russian economy. i mean, it was stolen. one to 300000000000 from a central bank were cut off from the swift payment system. put huge sanctions on this entire economy, which stopped importing energy even though it's destroying, you're doing oldest things. and now suddenly, you know,

we see that the economist recently noted the russia from not recovering it is going to go back to growth while european for thinking. so obviously this is not taught to expect us, so we don't have to reassess some of the assumption which we haven't. and that's right there glenn will. that's the nature of the beat here. might have it, but it's very true. this is what really scares me because there isn't a reassessment of you know, how do we get into this mass because they won't except that they've worked under false assumptions. i've been saying for months now, bad narratives, great bad outcomes and they can reassess that because it goes back down to the moral purity issue. that is really blocking their a same view of geo politics. and if speech go ahead maps, well, you know,

isn't any major confrontation, the 1st level of become station is kind of ideological one. and when the opponent see that their narrative isn't going through, the confrontation falls down to the going to certain level of which is money. and i think we've come through both of these stages now where you know, the west is continued to push the ideological america and what it sees that it doesn't fly in the kind of co go global south. it's going to, you know, it switches gears to economic urgent and sanctions and all kinds of things. and when that doesn't help, you know, it goes to the 3rd level of confrontation, which is pretty much violence at terror. and then the military cars and, and of course, and where is certain, bifurcation points where either, you know, the policy makers in the west, it will take decision to continue to push for more kind of military pressure on russia than others that are in the if not supportive of russia,

then please continue their neutrality that is not favorable to western interest in this situation. or, you know, the big interests that are behind west politics. you know, whether it's energy id just see others. bush, the elite to be more see more agreeable, but pushed it leads to, to, to seek more, some concessions and compromises where you have the right word in russian agreement capable exactly, day for before. for now, most of the western release our agreement and capable, but we'll see them fall one by one. recently when i mean, i want to kind of put a boeing on top of this the joseph burrell. is it easy to read and kind of make fun of ok? because i think he has a very antiquated view about history of what,

how your who's gotten where it's gotten to. and i see this conflict at the center of this conflict then ukraine is. it would be the waning of 500 years of european western global control. it's coming to an end and it's coming to end very rapidly, much faster than we would have ever thought. maybe it's because our high levels of technology go ahead. well, the reason why it's difficult to imagine is because we've never had this before. and then we talked about world orders to maine, the dominant world, or whoever had one of the sovereign nation state to show us, established with the piece of us fall in 1648, then the main one. but again, even this was limited to european, was sovereignty for civilized peoples, not the barbarians outside of europe. this was kind of the logic and, and this was them replaced after world war 2 and a bipolar system in which you have very diminished sovereignty for all except the 2

pulse of our and in the after world war s are out of the cold war. we have uniform order. now we tend to think of this is most multilateralism because it was the western countries collect having this collective hedge him on it. but now this distribution of power is gone. also, the legitimacy behind the system is completely gone because it can't have a world or without the legitimacy as well as the rest of the world. fear. for example, in human rights and civil limits. what states could do an international system limit the use of force and step with being used to enable use of force. so to excuse the other taking on people that bond and left the regime change less than they have. so. so it kind of the, the legitimacy have disappeared. now what we're going back to now is, you know, we're not going back to bipolar system even before world war 2, because there was a multiple narrative, but only with the european powers and the united states. what we're going back to now is like truly global, multiple charity with, you know, china and you know, soon in the, like all of this and non western countries are taking their top seats. this is

something we've never had before. so i can understand why don't don't tell us like going back to the colonial rhetoric of the rule of the jungle and europe is jungle is unless we go in and civilized jungle and we are god. and if you don't see less of jungle, it will invade us. this is their unfortunate rhetoric, but it does reflect that we can't really imagine this a new world order, which is now coming. i mean, it's not in the future is already here, and it's happening very, very fast. which is why it's difficult to adjust. well, i would follow up on that. i would say that i use the word global agenda gemini, in my introduction, a global hedge, amman, when it sees its power seating will lash out. and i think that's exactly what we're seeing right now. and i think that's what this collective war, western war against russians on my gentlemen, that's all we want to make all my guess here in moscow. i want to thank our be we're still watching this new year. are you next time?

remember the oh i oh, no master protests. they're wrapped in a number of african countries calling for an end to western interference in the continents of her. we condemn pressure on by the west and the united states. i want to call on them to take their hands off ethiopia with which they are terrorizing our country. yet more you politicians speak guide against the block, and they say following a course set by washington stating that undermines the continents own interest. ukrainian forces use nato supplied artillery to target.