country where juliana sanchez from and they haven't spoken out for him. they also haven't spoken out for the war crimes from ukraine. so there's a lot of hypocrisy here that we're looking at. are you when you, when you talk about the west, i guess being most civilized as you are suggesting perhaps in some sense to other parts of the world. it reminds me of the e. u foreign affairs chief of the day, joseph burrell, calling the e u. a god and, and the rest of the world, a jungle which of course you had to backtrack on and then come out and apologize. fiona isabel, thank you. thank you. well, the former u. k. finance minister re, she's sued. i can is to become the countries next. prime minister. he won the leadership contest after the only other contender penny more than withdrew from the rice of 42 year olds. tonight will be the countries, the 3rd prime minister in less than 2 months of their lives. trusted out last week he was stepping down off the job for 44 days at the helm. she quit having a trigger, an economic meltdown with her fiscal plans. so she will inherit

a country in the grip with a political and energy license. you can read much more about that right now. if you like it ask you dot com, otherwise checkout odds. he's a plethora of telegram channels. we're back soon with the when i would show the wrong. why don't i just don't yes. to fill out the thing because the after an engagement equals the trail. when too many find themselves well, the part we choose to look for common ground. ah

ah, ah. hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle. the conflict in ukraine is not only about which side will eventually prevail, the stakes are much higher. the outcome of this conflict will determine the nature of a new geopolitical order. the west is fighting russia to maintain its global hegemony . much of the world would like to see this come to an end. ah . to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guest here in moscow. glenn decent. he is a professor at the university of south eastern norway as well as author of the book . listen, phobia propaganda,

international politics. and we have next seen such golf. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies and moscow state institute of international relations or a job in cross stack roles in effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. let's start with glen here, glen. i just jot down a number of countries here. saudi arabia, turkey, the united arab emirates, india, south africa. now throw in opec plus, i'm not too long ago, these were considered, you know, if not a staunch american allies, very supportive of the west. and these are significant countries and opec by itself is very important. they're not in line with washington's demands that the world condemn russia. how significant is that? go ahead, glenn. ah, it's very significant. and this clarification about the world order that was established after the cold war. that of liberal hedge monet, folks around the united states has come to an end. and so again,

we see that the rest of the world, enough, according to dante russell's sanctions, is pretty much on nato. plus a handful of countries square, joined to sanctions. and is quite significant because i think it's approximately 85 percent of the world now live in country who haven't sanctioned russia. on the contrary, you see the opposite top happening. you see s e o expanding, which is to some high corporation organization. you said the bricks now expanding, taking more competencies. so, and again, this doesn't mean that they the same support. russia has the vast majority do not, but they also do not support to the western sanction. so the point isn't here that we're replacing the american order with a russian center. gordon, of course not. that would be ridiculous. but the order that's coming to an end is this western centric order, where effectively the united states was able to dictate the rest of the world followed. and again, many countries are seeing this with

a view to grant opportunities. you mentioned a few country, but also latin america here from brazil, argentina, many countries are now saying that, you know, doesn't mean that support russia, but now they're vulnerability to us pressures diminishing because they're always b. now other centers of power which they can lean towards. if the u. s. shows them too hard, so the world is definitely changing as well. there's no denying this max also, and there's another angle to this following glen. had to say here, all the countries i mentioned and when glen meant mentioned is that there is a, this new thurston desire for sovereignty. because this is what people, you know, the united states, it with nato allies around threatening everyone, you know, you know, from anywhere destroying your currency, destroying your financial system, like what they did with turkey, nato member, nice companies,

countries that are coalescing around these groups that it's not confrontational, what they're saying. i really love the word that glenn is competent. you know, we, we're, we're competing for our own foreign policy. we're competent enough to know what our national interest. that's it's, you know, i hate how the west always, it's us or them as it's confrontational, when i think that these new centers are saying, you know, we don't want to be confrontational with you. but we don't want to get involved in decision making that adversely affects us go ahead. well, in 1990 s, the thomas friedman, the college for the new york times written that's what didn't know what to call the new world order. why, what it was, so we called it, but what, by what it wasn't. so they said, you know, the post bipolar world. perhaps we don't know exactly what world water that is now . margin is going to look like what it is today. but we can perhaps argue that what we're seeing now is the beginning of the post unipolar world. as we know,

it seems to break up of the. so if union in the bipolar system, i think the processes are, you know, multi happening and simultaneously much level of the multi level domain. we still have the core of nuclear states, but we still have and it's, you know, in that sense it's, you know, the whole the centric world. so to say, we perhaps have the economic do awfully in the form of us in china and the kind of deal with kinetic level. but also as you and you and glen argues, are seeing the emergence of a great number of states for seeking greater autonomy. and while most of them are still very much hooked to the western financial institutions are very much dependent on the international institutions where the west has a dominance. we do see the new tri for, for sovereignty and for suburb decision making,

especially in critical forms. and many of them, even though they vote against russia on the un general assembly at both of the level of beliefs and both the level of people see that despite that is happening now on the battlefield. a crane or an artist other domains as kind of the beginning of the new post colonialism. so to shake such a really good point because there is that angle to it, it is. well, you know, what if you, if you listen to western leaders and pundents media, this is a struggle of good versus evil democracy versus the talk procedure. they love to play this kind of mock. we're seeing all this, but new to core, things that go across everything that we really said is it is dollar privilege. the dominance of the dollar in which we have seen that even though the united states is considers europe. it's ally, it's. is that a pretty good job of damaging the,

the euro. ok, and making the, the entire euro see are very dependent on the u. s. that's a strike with, that's a strike in the right direction for the us. and there's also energy, which again is kind of counter intuitive step off these western leads that are these greeny green maniacs. but they do want to be able to control and energy. and i'd also throw in other commodities so it, it cuts this way as well, because what, there's a huge difference between money and energy. i would say you can print money, but you can't print energy. and this is why i would even go as far as to say, one of the reasons why the north stream to life winds were damaged when well, energy is obviously the life blood economy. and this is been one of the problems stuff we've had in the west and during this uniform order that the problem is and during global hedge money. so you can afford to make a lot of mistakes because it can absorb the punishment. but over time,

the problems will start to accumulate. and again, if you say now this idea that we could just sanction all the russian energy and we would be fine. i mean cutting off the life blood lesson, but they say, well, we can diversify. but can we, because again, this is not our 1st mistake, spoiling relations with the russians. we also know put sanctions on that. and so m m against the iranians now alienating the so this is all, i mean, if you're, if you push too hard against everyone, especially the energy producers, it, you know, it's not that versus the right the wrong good versus evil. it's just, it's, you know, yeah, it's to fix this reality. it that economists will, will drive to halt. so, but on the 1st point i agree. so i don't think it is. of course this conflict has meant dimensions. it is very complex about this attempt to reduce it down to being a conflict between democracy versus authoritarianism. first of all,

it is ridiculous. this is a he respects to understand this conflict is suspected in a replacement on saying that it's a competition between good and evil. we always done this with the russians, to be honest with was that this was a european against i see, i think people saw so you know, civilization versus stuff barbarians. you know, they, they real, we always, we always had this. you know, you simplify everything down to good versus evil. it's good for mobilizing support among the population, but it, it doesn't quickly with the right tools to actually sold a conflict which is a devastating for everyone. you're absolutely right, particularly if they is in the shop burg, emptying out and you're getting colds and the winter, the good. any good versus evil thing, a wayne's and importance here. max. one of the things it's very interesting is the because the way the west is framed the conflict in ukraine is i see that this is a ukrainian democracy or whatever. but when you go outside of the nato world

bubble, it's pretty amazing. russia, the west is declared war on russia and in a variety of ways. and the rest of the world is almost in awe, is being able to stand up to the entire thrust of all western institutions. and it's the west that is going into recession and rushes coming out of it. it's. i've talked to many people in the global south that they're just amazed that the all powerful west doesn't seem all that powerful anymore. well that, that, but also there is one i think, token of the crumbling kind of system. it isn't the very fact that secretary lincoln had to say, and i'm not quote directly something of the kind that the west that the world do not leave without us leadership. i think the very fact that he's talking about it is symptomatic in the sense that will a i had just heard that the world has lived without the u. s. literature for most

of us history. but it's not to, to degrade of the great many things that the united states has done for the world. and i think it's one of the, of, you know, things that russia should totally avoid doing as, as there the soviet union and the iron curtain that is full and now is full in on the opposite sanity left russia. that is shutting down itself from the rest of the world. and right now i actually have been playing phone remarkably right here in washington. that does not set the rules for the world than someone else will. well, all okay, may be a collective group of countries. well, or different organizations working through consensus. you, when you're agreeing, i mean, i don't see the, the why it shouldn't be so dramatic because the world is in pretty bad shape. maybe there should be better collective leadership. go ahead. no, i agree analysis to be said, this is constant warning from the usa for china and you had to long,

but it has to be point out like china will not occupied. the decision to us have in the ninety's than want to will not be another sole superpower, capable of actually dominating the entire planet. i did this era is over so, so the horse with lincoln is expressing is the fact that the u. s. won't on his own, able to dictate at the rules of the game. and again, this is a common phrase from united states. keep in mind that obama, when he was, and launching this economic election agreements in, in east asia. he also wrote this all that in york time, so he won't listen the future on the economic relations in china. the rule should not be written by china. it should be written by us. and it's a very serious i'm mentality again that it's up. it's just like in europe is locked . russia being the center, it's not going to happen. and also in asia, china going to dominate everything. it's not going to happen. it's old. but it's

this transition from unit polarity to multiple r t, in which it part of process diplomacy ends. it's not one center dictating to the rest, but to promise it now instead has to be compromised and negotiations, which have become locked words in the past few years. but this is how this is something we have to adapted because in the distribution of power, no longer reflects unit polarity and dust reality, which states should address and adopted also do not a states for its own interests. yeah, for its own interest centrally, it's, it's all too often forgotten. you know, i mean, john joe biden became president city, whatever of middle class foreign policy. well, it's anything but gentlemen, i'm going to here, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, specialists will need to stay with our oh ah, with

a new deal law exposure to deal with the, with the, with the, with the money. i don't love the schooling with either with

welcome back to cross or all things considered. i'm peter. well this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. ah let's go back to mac sierra moscow. i talk to we were talking about mentality. so in the, at the end, the 1st part of the program here. i'm sure you came across joseph burrows, gardening essays about you know, how europe is the garden, and you have to fight off the jungle invading the, the garden. and then he had a follow up blog to try to go, you know, he dug himself in very deep using a gardener's motif here. but i mean, this is really a mentality and glen was touching upon and isn't, you know, we have these western leads. they can't imagine a world being run differently,

which is the so ignorant of history. empires rising, fall, nation states, come and go. i mean, if anything about history it's, it's all about flux, but we have these westerns, elite the, have this kind of fukuyama believe that we're at the end of history and nothing can change and everybody is in there. right. position, which is a historical go ahead. well, with all the criticism, i think bro has a good point of by arguing that the european prosperity is very much dependent on the security guarantees from the u. s. and chief energy from russian ship was from china. and that's none of that is in place, except perhaps for even greater dependence on the united states in terms of military and security infrastructure. well, i think the, the, the very wording that was use viber alan particular, but also by a great number of your western pundits and policymakers reflect the sense we could

have off mentality to continue to leave in the comfort zone that we use. so you can then 99 is where, where the rest of the world has never had that conference zone in the, in the 1st place. but secondly, that the comfort zone is no more even for the west. so to continue to, to talk to used the language. there was adequate, perhaps in 90 nineties, now that they exactly as, as when pointed out that the district of power no longer a left unit will ever teach is absolutely ridiculous. one other thing, i think what we're seeing now is the system of checks and balances across the globe is changing dramatically. the one that emerged after world war 2. but it's also changing inside the united states. will see this, you know, the party fights seek to change this, then the system that has actually made united states what it is was recently, but it's also going to projecting to the need to change the system of jackson biologist and accumulate even more power that you know,

automatically produces culture counter offensive and push back from russia from china and from other states that it's just natural that i think not very well appreciated across the western elite where people do get it. i would say, i absolutely agree with you here. you haven't yet again, part of the postwar settlement plan of as it were, bretton woods and, and what not in the, the united states in the west, in general have been able to financial eyes, their economies in it. it worked for a long time and believe, continent, the west became very, very rich and the envy of the world's but less so slowly coming to an end. you can just print so much money. you can, you can't print prosperity. um, you can use a wise monetary policy from time to time fiscal policy, but that it's coming to an end that they're come to the end of their rope here. because as i kind of alluded to all already in the program, is it instability will come through real things, oil, grain,

ok. i'm a natural gas. this is one of the reasons why are people wanting when they see that the economic system that the, the west is created is become unstable. and they're eager to start seeing a level of ms ration in the west. and people want to go with what it has real value in. it's really remarkable for viewers, we're looking at currencies. ah, no one would have thought including high cell. there are before february 24th it a, very soon the russian rouble would become a hard currency because we are treated as, as was off currency before people actually want rubles now, because it's, it's not these rubles, are backed up by real things. commodities. well, well, that's correct and well, of course you, you could have a system necklace, international economy run by countries without natural resources. however, this was ever since the repeal of the corn was in britain, no idea was one. they will do the high tech aspect of the economy and the financial

and the rest of the export, the foreign products or, or national resources. however, this is not the international distribution of labor we currently having because you see that outside the west is where almost all the natural resources are. but we also now see that the they have their own financial instruments. they have their own bank stop the payment systems and also as especially with china lading and this is that they also dominate the high tech area. they know the developing their own transportation corridors down and you know, i, one after another you see that the, to the west of necessarily have this is real strategic industry which creates huge dependencies from the rest of the world. so instead you see that the demand strategic industries, independence is an operator, will reside in other countries like russia within our oldest natural resources. and again, the people who lost you out of the room only a year ago by suggesting that,

you know, because russia wasn't a real economy or gas station upgrading from the economy. this was kind of line and we're thrown, but again, we in the west, we through everything at the russian economy. i mean, it was stolen. one to 300000000000 from a central bank were cut off from the swift payment system. put to huge sanctions on this entire economy. we stopped importing energy even though it's destroying you're doing oldest things. and now suddenly, you know, we see that the economist recently noted the russia from not recovering. it's going to go back to growth while european. so thinking, so obviously this is not taught to expect us, so we don't have to reassess some of the assumption which we haven't. and that's right there glenn will. that's the nature of the beat here. why did that?

but it's very true. this is what really scares me because there isn't a reassessment of you know, how do we get into this mass because they won't accept the big worked under false assumptions. i've been saying for months now, bad narratives, great bad outcomes and they can, we assess them because it goes back down to the moral purity issue that is really blocking their a same view of geo politics and of speech. go ahead, man. well, you know, isn't any major confrontation, the 1st level of the confrontation is kind of ideological one. and when the opponent see that their narrative isn't going through, the confrontation falls down to the can a certain level of which is money. and i think we've come through both of these stages now where you know, the west is continued to push the ideological narrative. and when it sees that it doesn't fly in the kind of co go global south, we've got it. you know,

it switches gears to economic urgent and sanctions and all kinds of things. and when that doesn't help, you know, what goes to the 3rd level of confrontation, which is pretty much violence at terror. and then the military cars and, and of course, and where is certain, bifurcation points where either, you know, the policy makers in the west, it will take decision to continue to push for more kind of military pressure on russia and others that are in the if not supportive of russia, then the police continue their neutrality that is not favorable to western interest in this situation. or, you know, the big interests that are behind west politics. you know, whether it's energy interest, see others, push the elite to be more say more agreeable, but pushed to at least to, to seek more, some concessions and compromises where you have the right word in russian

agreement capable exactly, day for before. for now, most of the western release our agreement capable, but we'll see them fall one by one recently, you know, when, when i want to kind of put a boeing on top of this year, they just, burrell is easy to read and kind of make fun. ok, because i think he has a very antiquated view about history of what, how your who's gotten where it's gotten to. and i see this conflict at the center of this conflict then ukraine is me the waning of 500 years of european western global control. it's coming to an end and it's coming to end very rapidly, much faster than we would have ever thought. maybe it's because our height levels of technology go ahead. well,

the reason why it's difficult to imagine is because we never had this before. and then we talked about the world orders to maine, the dominant world, or whoever had one of the sovereign nation state to show us a stablished. and with the peace on the fall, in 1648, this was the main one. but again, even this was limited to your p. m. c was sovereignty for civilized peoples, not the barbarians outside of europe. this was kind of the logic and and this was them replaced after world war 2 and a bipolar system in which you have very diminished sovereignty. for all except the 2 pulse of power and in the after world war s r, after the cold war we have uniform order. now, we tend to think of this is most multilateralism because it was the western countries collect having just collect the original niche. but now this distribution power is gone. also the legitimacy behind the system is completely gone because it can't have a world or without the legitimacy as well. but the rest of the world is, for example, the human rights and civil posted limits. what states could do in international

system limit the use of force and step with being used to enable the use of force. so to excuse, you know, the other talking on people, let's bond unless the regime change less and they've so, so it kind of the legitimacy have disappeared. now. what we're going back to now is, you know, we're not going back to bipolar system even before world war 2, because that was a multiple narrative, but only with european powers and united states. what we're going back to now is like truly global multiple marketing was, you know, china and you know, soon in there like all of this and non western countries are taking the top seats. this is something we've never had before. so i can understand why, you know, a fellow like, you know what, i'm going back to, you know, the colonial electrical, the rule of the jungle. and now europe is a jungle is unless we go in and civilized jungle, we are garden. if you will see less jungle, it will invade us. this is their unfortunate rhetoric, but it does reflect that we can't really imagine this new world order, which is now coming. i mean it's not in the future is already here and it's

happening very, very fast. which is why it's difficult to adjust. well, i would follow up on that. i would say that i used to work global agenda gemini and my introduction a global head jim on when it sees its power seating, it will lash out and i think that's exactly what we're seeing right now. and i think that's what that's collected war, western war against russians all about gentlemen. that's all i want to make up my guess here in moscow. i want to thank you for watching it here. are you next time? remember? oh ah oh, when i was showing wrong when i just don't a whole new world. yes. to shape out the same because of the african

and engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah miss alice hop headlines on our t rushers. defense ministry says he has in the last stages of creating a so called dirty palm for a false flag attack. moscow also says ukraine has requested nuclear weapon technology from both are still to come in this program. we believe in african countries themselves taking the leading role in efforts to resolve current problems based on a principle of african problems, african solutions that russia is. foreign minister declares africa, one of the most important centers about multi polo world order. i think that the continent must be allowed to resolve its own issues with.