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hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle . the conflict in ukraine is not only about which side will eventually prevail, the stakes are much higher. the outcome of this conflict will determine the nature of a new geopolitical order. the west is fighting russia to maintain its global hegemony . much of the world would like to see this come to an end. ah . to discuss these issues and more on joined by my guest here in moscow. glenn decent. he is a professor at the university of south eastern norway as well as author of the book, melissa phobia, propaganda in international politics. and we have maxine scoff. he is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations are joining, crossed out girls and the fact that means he can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. i. let's start with glen here, glen. i just jot down

a number of countries here. saudi arabia, turkey, the united arab emirates, india, south africa. now throw in opec plus, i'm not too long ago. these were considered, you know, if not, um, staunch american. oh, eyes very supportive of the west. and these are significant countries, and hope that by itself is very important. they're not in line with washington's demands that the world condemn russia. how significant is that? go ahead, glenn. ah, it's very significant. and this is claire indication about the world order that was established after the cold war. that of liberal engine monet focused around the united states has come to an end. and so again, we see that the rest of the world are not supporting down to russian sanctions. is pretty much on nato plus a handful of countries square joined to sanctions. and this is quite significant because i think it's approximately 85 percent of the world now live in country who

haven't sanctioned russia. on the contrary, you see the opposite of the happening. you see s e o expanding, which is to some high corporation organization. you said the brakes now expanding, taking more competencies. so, and again, this doesn't mean that they the same support. russia again, vast majority do not, but they also do not support to the western sanction. so the point isn't that we're replacing the american order with a russian center. gordon, of course, thought that would be ridiculous, but the order that's coming to an end is this western centric order where effectively the united states was able to dictate the rest of the world followed. and again, many countries are seeing this with that with a view to grant opportunities to mention a few country, but also latin america here from brazil, argentina, many countries are now saying that, you know, doesn't mean that support russia, but now they're vulnerability to us. pressure is diminishing because they're always

b. now, other centers of power which they can lean towards. if the u. s. r shows them too hard. so the world is definitely changing as well. there's no denying this. yeah. max also and there's another angle to this following glen. had to say here, all the countries i mentioned with glen men mentioned is that there is a, this new thurston desire for sovereignty. because this is what people, you know, the united states. it with nato allies go around, threatening everyone, you know, you know, from anywhere destroying your currency, destroying your financial system, like what they did with turkey, nato member in these companies, countries that are coalescing around these groups that it's not confrontational, what they're saying. i really love the word that glenn is competent, you know, we were competent for our own foreign policy were competent enough to know what our national interest it's. i hate how the west always. it's us or them as it's

confrontational, when i think that these new centers are saying, you know, we don't want to be confrontational with you, but we don't want to get involved in decision making that adversely affects us go ahead. well, in 1990 the thomas friedman, the college for the new york times written that's what didn't know what to call the new world order. why what it was so we called it, but what, by what it wasn't. so they said, you know, the post bipolar world, perhaps we don't know exactly what world water that is now. margin is going to look like what it is today. but we can perhaps argue that what we're seeing now is the beginning of the post unipolar world. as we know, it seems to break up of the soviet union in the bipolar system. i think the processes are, you know, multi competing and simultaneously to level of the local level domain. we still have the core of nuclear states, but we still have and it's, you know,

in that sense it's, you know, the whole the centric world. so to say, we perhaps have the economic do awfully in the form of us in china and the kind of deal with kinetic level. but we also, as you and you and glen are good, are seen the emergence of a great number of states for seeking greater autonomy. and while most of them are still very much hooked to the western financial institutions are very much dependent on the international institutions where the west has a dominance. we do see the new try for, for sovereignty and for suburb decision making, especially in critical forms. and many of them, even though they vote against russia on the un general assembly at both to the level of beliefs in both the level of people see that despite that is happening now

on the battlefield. a crane or an artist other domains as kind of the beginning of the new post colonialism. so to say, such a really good point because there is that angle to it as well. you know, but if you, if you listen to western leaders and pundents media, this is a struggle of good versus evil democracy versus the top procedure. they love to play this kind of thing and all that. but the 2 core things that go across everything that we really said is it is dollar privilege, the dominance of the dollar in which we have seen that even though the united states has considers europe. it's ally, it's. is that a pretty good job of damaging the, the euro. ok, and making the, the entire euro see are very dependent on the u. s. that's a strike with, that's a strike in the right direction for the us. and there's also energy, which again is kind of counter intuitive step off these west. your leads in are these greeny green maniacs,

but they do want to be able to control and energy. and i'd also throw in other commodities, so it cuts this way as well because what, there's a huge difference between money and energy. i would say you can print money, but you can't print energy. and this is why i would even go as far as to say, one of the reasons why the north stream to wipe ones were damaged when well, energy is obviously the life of blood in any economy. and this is been one of the problems stuff we've had in the west during this uniform order is another problem is and during global hedge of money. so you can afford to make a lot of mistakes because you can absorb the punishment. but over time, the problem, so start to accumulate. and again, if you see now this idea that we could just sanction all russian energy and we will be fine. i mean we're cutting off my blood, but we listen. but they say, well, we can diversify, but can we? because again, this is not our 1st mistake, spoiling relations with the russians. we also put sanctions on defense,

women against the iranians. now eliminated compared to this as well. i mean, you're, you're, if you're pushing too hard against everyone, especially the energy producers, you know, it's not worth this right. the wrong or good versus evil. it's just, it's, it's to fix this reality. then the economy will grind to a halt. and so, but on the 1st point i agree as well, i don't think there's of course, this conflict, this has been dimensions is very complex, but this attempt to reduce it down to being a conflict between democracy versus authoritarianism. first of all, it is ridiculous. this is very poor, he respects to understand this conflict is suspected when a replacement saying that if a competition between good and evil, we always done this with the russians. to be honest with this, what's your p and against people's this last civilization of our assistant

barbarians. we are we always, we always had this issue. simplifying everything about the narrative of good versus evil. it's good for mobilizing support among the population, but it, it doesn't quickly with the right tools to actually solve this conflict, which is demonstrating forever why, why you're absolutely right, particularly in the shop burg emptying out and you're getting cold and the winter, the good. any good versus evil thing, a wanes and importance here. next, one of the things it's very interesting is the because the way the west is framed the conflict in ukraine is i see that this is a ukranian democracy or whatever. but when you go outside of the nato world bubble, it's pretty amazing. russia of the west is declared war on russia and in a variety of ways. and the rest of the world is almost in awe is being able to

stand up to the entire thrust of all western institutions. and it's the west that is going into recession and russia is coming out of it. it's. i've talked to many people in the global south that are just amazed that the all powerful west doesn't seem all that powerful anymore. well that, that, but also there is one, i think, token of the crumbling kind of system. it isn't the very fact that secretary lincoln had to say, and i'm not to quote directly something of the kind that the worst that the world cannot leave without us leadership. i think the very fact that he's talking about it is into magic in the sense that will a, i had just oh, that the world has lived without the u. s. literature for most of us history. but it's not to, to degrade the great many things that the united states has done for the world. and i think it's one of the, of, you know, things that russia should totally avoid doing it as, as the soviet union and the iron curtain that is full and now is full in on the

opposite. and it's not russia that is shutting down itself from the rest of the world. and right now to be there. and i actually have been blanking for remarkably right here in washington. that does not set the rules for the world than someone else will. well, all okay, may be a collective group of countries well or different organizations working through consensus. you when you're agreeing, i mean, i don't see the, the why it shouldn't be so dramatic because the world is in pretty bad shape. maybe there should be better collective leadership. go ahead. no, i agree analysis to be said this a constant warning from the usa for china and you had to long, but it has to be point out like china will not occupied the position to us have in the ninety's than was there will not be another sole superpower, capable of actually dominating the entire planet. i did this era is over. so, so the horse with lincoln is expressing is the fact that the u. s. won't on his own,

able to dictate at the rules of the game. and again, this is a common phrase from united states. keep in mind that obama, when he was, and launching this economic election agreements in, in east asia. he also wrote this all that in york time, so he won't listen to the future on the economic relations in china. the rules should not be written by china. it should be written by us. and it's very serious, some mentality, again that it's up. it just like in europe is up russia being the center. it's not going to happen. and also in a choice of china going to dominate everything. it's not going to happen. it's old . but it's this transition from unit polarity to multiple r t, in which it part of process diplomacy ends. it's not one center dictating to the rest, but to promise it now instead has to be compromised negotiations, which have become locked words in the past few years. but this is how this is

something we have to adapted because in the distribution of power, no longer reflects unit polarity and justice to reality. which states should address and adopted also do not a states for its own interests. yeah, for its own interest centrally, it's, it's all too often forgotten. you know, i mean, john joe biden became president city, whatever of middle class foreign policy. well, it's anything but gentlemen, i'm going to here, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break hunting specialist will need to stay with our ah ah, ah, ah .

a welcome back to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter. well, this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news a let's go back to mac sierra moscow. i chuckle, you were talking about mentality. so in the, at the end, the 1st part of the program here. i'm sure you came across joseph barrels gardening, essays about you know, how europe is the garden, and you have to fight off the jungle invading the, the garden. and then he had a follow up blog to try to go, you know, he dug himself in very deep using a gardener's motif here. but i mean, this is really

a mentality and glen was touching upon and isn't, you know, we have these western leads. they can't imagine a world being run differently, which is the so ignorant of history. empires rising, fall, nation states, come and go. i mean, if anything about history it's, it's all about flux, but we have these western to leave the, have this kind of fukuyama believe that we're at the end of history and nothing can change and everybody is in there. right. position, which is a historical go ahead well, with all the criticism, i think bro has a good point of by arguing that the european prosperity is very much dependent on the security guarantees from the u. s. and chief energy from russian ship was from china. and that's none of that is in place, except perhaps for even greater dependence on the united states in terms of military and security infrastructure. well, i think the, the, the very wording that was used by burrell, in particular, but also by

a great number of your western pundits and policymakers reflect the sense picking it off mentality to continue to leap in the comfort zone. the you silly and then 99 is where, where the rest of the world has never had that conference zone in the, in the 1st place. but secondly, that the comfort zone is no more even for the west. so to continue to, to talk to used the language. there was adequate, perhaps in 90 nineties, now that they exactly as, as when pointed out that the district of power no longer left uniform. heritage is absolutely ridiculous. one other thing, i think what we're seeing now is the system of checks and balances across the globe is changing dramatically. the one that emerged after world war 2. but it's also changing inside the united states. will will see this, you know, the party fights seek to change this, then the system that has actually made united states what it is was recently, but it's also gonna projecting to the need to change the system of jackson

biologists and accumulate even more power that you know, automatically produces culture counter or friendships and push facts from russia, from china and from other states that it's just natural that i think this is not very well appreciated across the western elite where people do get it. i would say, i absolutely agree with you here. you haven't yet. again, part of the postwar settlement plan of as it were, bretton woods and, and what not. i mean, the, the united states in the west, in general have been able to financial eyes, their economies, and it worked for a long time and believe, continent, the west became very, very rich and the envy of the world. but less so slowly coming to an end, you can just print so much money. you can, you can't print prosperity. um, you can use a wise monetary policy from time to time fiscal policy, but that it's coming to an end that they're come to the end of their rope here. because as i kind of alluded to all already in the program,

is it instability will come through real phase oil grain. ok? i'm a natural gas. this is one of the reasons why are people wanting when they see that the economic system that the, the west is created is become unstable. and they're eager to start seeing a level of the administration in the west. people want to go with what it has real value in. it's really remarkable for viewers. we're looking at currencies. ah, no one would have thought, including my cell there before february 24th it a, very soon, the russian rouble would become a hard currency because we are treated as a soft currency before people actually want rubles now, because it's, it's not these rubles, are backed up by real things commodities. well, well, that's correct and well, of course you, you could have a system next on the international economy run by countries without natural resources. however, this was ever since the repeal of the corn was in britain,

idea was the one they will do the high tech aspect of the economy and the financial and the rest of the export, the foreign products or, or national resources. however, this is not the international distribution of labor we currently having because you see that outside the west is where almost all the natural resources are. but we also now see that they have their own financial instruments that have their own bank stop the payment systems. and also as especially with china lading and this is that they also dominate the high tech area. they know the developing their own transportation corridors, dam i, one after another. you see that the, to the west of necessarily have this is real strategic industry which creates huge dependencies from the rest of the world. so instead you see that the demand strategic industries, independence is an operator, will reside in other countries like russia within our oldest natural resources. and

again, the people who lost you out of the room only a year ago by suggesting that, you know, because russia wasn't a real economy gas station upgrading from the economy. this was kind of line and we were thrown, but again, we in the west were through everything at the russian economy. i mean, it was stolen, one to 300000000000 from a central bank with cut off from the swift payment system. put the huge sanctions on this entire economy. we stopped importing energy even though it's destroying you're doing all this things. and now suddenly, you know, we see that the economist recently noted the russia from not recovering. it's going to really go back to growth while european are thinking. so obviously this is not taught to expect us, so we don't have to reassess some of the function which we haven't. and that's right there. glen will that's

the nature of the beat here. why did that? but it's very true. this is what really scares me because there isn't a reassessment of you know, how do we get into this mass because they won't except that they worked under false assumptions. i've been saying for months now, bad narratives, great bad outcomes and they can reassess them because it goes back down to the moral purity issue that is really blocking their a same view of geo politics and of speech go ahead maps. well, you know, as in any major confrontation, the 1st level of the congregation is kind of ideological one. and when the opponent see that their narrative isn't going through, the confrontation falls down to the going to certain level of which is money. and i think we've come through both of these stages now where you know, the west is continued to push these ideological narrative. and when it sees that it

doesn't fly into kind of co go global south, we've got it. you know, it switches gears to economic urgent and sanctions and all kinds of things. and when that doesn't help, you know, what goes to the 3rd level of confrontation, which is pretty much violence at terror. and then the military cars and, and of course, and where is certain, bifurcation points where either, you know, the policy makers in the west, it will take decision to continue to push for more kind of military pressure on russia and others that are in the if not supportive of russia, then please continue their neutrality that is not favorable to western interest in this situation. or, you know, the big interests that are behind west politics. you know, whether it's energy interest, see others, push the elite to be more see more agreeable,

but pushed to at least to, to seek more, some concessions and compromises where you have the right word and russian agreement capable exactly day for before. for now, most of the western release our agreement capable, but we'll see them fall one by one recently, you know, when you, when i want to kind of put a bowl on top of this, joseph burrell is easy to read and kind of make fun. okay? because i think he has a very antiquated view about history and what, how your, who's gotten where it's gotten to when i see this conflict at the center of this conflict, the ukraine is it would be the waning of 500 years of european western global control it's coming to an end and it's coming in very rapidly, much basket, and we would have ever thought,

maybe it's because our levels of technology go ahead. well, the reason why it's difficult to imagine is because we never had this before. and then we talked about the world orders to make the dominant world, or whoever had one of the sovereign nation state to show us, established with the peace on the fall in 1648, this was the main one. but again, even this was limited to your p. m. c was sovereignty for civilized peoples, not the barbarians outside of europe. this was kind of logic and, and this was them replaced after world war 2 and a bipolar system in which you have very diminished sovereignty for all except the 2 pulse of power in the after world war s r. after the cold war, we have uniform order. now we didn't think of this is more multi lateral. listen because it was the western countries collect having just collect the original niche, but now this distribution power is gone. also, the legitimacy behind the system is completely gone because it can't have a world or without the legitimacy as well. but the rest of the world is,

for example, human rights and civil posted limits. what states could do an international system limit the use of force and step with being used to enable the use of force. so to excuse, you know, the other talking on people less bond unless the regime change less and they so, so it kind of the, the legitimacy have disappeared. now what we're going back to now is, you know, we're not going back to bipolar system even before world war 2, because that was a multiple narrative, but only with the european powers and the united states. what we're going back to now is like truly global multiple marketing was, you know, china and you know, soon in there like all of this and non western countries are taking the top seats. this is something we've never had before. so i can understand why, you know, a fellow like, you know what, i'm going back to, you know, the colonial electrical, the rule of the jungle. and now europe is a jungle is unless we go in and civilized jungle, doesn't we? our garden, if you don't see less of jungle, it will invade us. this is their unfortunate rhetoric,

but it does reflect that we can't really imagine this new world order, which is now coming. i mean, it's not in the future is already here and it's happening very, very fast. which is why it's difficult to adjust. well, i would follow up on that. i would say that i used to work global agenda gemini and my introduction a global head jim on when it sees its power seating, it will lash out and i think that's exactly what we're seeing right now. and i think that's what that's collected war, western war against russians all about gentlemen. that's all i want to thank all my guest here in moscow. i want to thank you for watching it here. are you next time? remember? oh ah ah, ah ah

ah, ah, just a top headlines right now. you're not you international russian defense military says here within the last stages of creating a so called dirty ball for false flight attack. moscow also says ukraine has requested nuclear weapon technology from britain, details still to come on that story. meanwhile, up and coming we believe in african countries themselves taking the leading role in efforts to resolve current problems. thanks tony. principles of african proper africa solutions after the foreign minister de la for off declared africa is one of the most important centers of a multi po.