oh mm i i hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . it is said talk is cheap but loose talk about dirty bombs is nothing less than dangerous with both russia and ukraine preparing for new offensive. the west is not shy, talking about nuclear weapons. is the west thinking the unthinkable. ah cross sucking the unthinkable. i'm joined by my guess beer, emanuel tom and in brussels. he is a lecture at lee oh university and in pens mania. we have ted see he is a conflict consultant and retired us foreign service officer or

a gentleman. crosswalk rose in effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, i mean not a ted 1st intense mania. looking at the 3 of us right now, we're pretty much the same generation um and we grew up being children of the cold war. not to think about the unthinkable. having loose talk about nuclear weapons. but here we are, ted. it's almost in a casual way. it's being referenced in the media and by some western politicians. having said that, the russian side is never once even mentioned, it is reacted to western commentary. but it does not proactively say we're going to use these weapons. there is not one case where you would know that following western media, ted, it's absolutely right. there's been a lot of very lose talk. you've got some former high ranking us military officials saying that the u. s. should join a multilateral military force ukraine, which is to say to take this thing from a proxy war to

a shooting war with russia. unfortunately, on the other hand, you mostly got people like retired admiral mike mullen, former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff under president george w bush and president obama saying this talk is great job. i was talking about arm again. we have to back right off that we have to get to the negotiating table soon by one means or another. so it's not total insanity in the west. but my god, there's a lot of this talk taking place here manual in brussels again. you know, i want to go back to kind of when we were young men, there was the worry about having a limited nuclear war in europe. and now here we are all about 40 years, 50 years later with or we're hearing people talk about the unthinkable here. which i find is, is quite astounding because when i look at europe and i look at the united states, what is the national security interest of ukraine for the, for the united states in europe,

please explain that to me because i can understand it, go ahead and brussels oh yes, soc jordy you're there was, or who is if she are doing the cornwall, utter a nuclear war could o q e in the charter of europe. and because her, her been aware of nuclear weapons seen us nuclear weapons in rush in soviet union at the time, and the europeans to, we're feeding about to they could be view your voucher. the t auto of is nuclear war. and this is why you are united change in france decided to have their own new crop bomb or to, to have your own new situation policy. deterrence policy research in english are now, oh we, we are, we are back to we stokes about to mediate new class strikes. but i think today or this is more a communication wall. i think you're

a very same a huge communication company to try to depict russia as her, as he, i grace or on potentially using the nuclear bumper. limited nuclear bumps, but i don't think it is gonna happen because it's part of it, or of, of the sure of communication walk and the russia. i was never mentioned joel distress, but they were nuts, a user nuclear bob instead of a extreme case. so for a threats to, to vital interest of rashanda, we are not there. i told you can't one of the, you know, this all started lisa, the recent iteration of this as a potential dirty bomb or false flag which and we've all been expecting ever since the start of this conflict. because as i said in my introduction,

the ukrainians and the russians are prepare ring for new offensives probably sometime in the middle of next month. and then ukraine is going to be overwhelmed numerically. and so i'm not surprised or looking for a false flag, of course, detonate something and blame the other side. that's the shorthand of it here. ok, which of course will create a coalition of the willing. i'm sure you've heard that phrase before. 2 is to escalate this conflict here. and the only way the west can really escalate is to go new killer. because for, for the everson in ever since the end of the cold war, the united states have been fighting herds been in the middle east. ok. they don't have that conventional capacity, and that's why you go from selling used or giving use jump to the ukrainians all the way to the ultimate weapon. and that's the west has done that, not russia. go ahead. well, we've got the added complication, peter, the nato is in the process of practicing nuclear bombardment in europe or yep,

under the rubric of steadfast noon, which it does every year. and this actually, when i was at nato, i worked with us mission to data from 2008 to 2011. when i retired from the foreign servers. and this drove home to me, the absurdity of the whole prospect of nato being, you know, a meaningful participate in any european conflict that involved the russian federation. because back in the day when they designed these plans, nato was in west germany. the worst courses were in east germany, and you could lie a few 100 kilometers at the most who could nukes somewhat. so it makes sense to use small, single engine, jet aircraft, carrier, nuclear weapons. i mean, it didn't make a huge amount of sense, but at least you could sort of envision it these days to even get to territory where you could drop a nuclear weapon. if you're talking about starting in germany,

which is where us shared nuclear gravity, bombs are kept the kept in the netherlands, belgian, germany, italy, and turkey. god, help us about getting a new u. s. b 61. gravity bomb nuclear bomb from germany to russian territory. you're going to have to fly thousands of kilometers. you're going to have to refuel in mid air, not once, not twice, but several times. and you're going to have to have a whole armada of conventional aircraft flying with you so that you can try and penetrate brush and airspace. this is insane. this is a declaration of war. it's an act of worrying before you drop anything. so, you know, people talk about signaling using weapons, you can signal using these things by the time you take off, you committed an act of war. so you know, they're still exercising with this stuff. that's what steadfast noon is. that's

getting good at this ridiculous mission of taking f sixteens. for god's sake, i mean nuclear bombs on to them and pretending that they're going to fly to russian don't. is there any, any reason to doubt that this is not a credible nuclear deter it? as far as prison, sir, it's, it's absurd on its face here because it may go back to peer menu. well, i mean, this whole talk, this loose talk is a form of escalation in itself because the nato doesn't know really what to do. it's got it. it's painted itself into this corner and it's lashing out and that's the ultimate fear is going new killer, obviously appearing menu. well, one of the things i've noticed that it goes all the way back to 2014. you hear this all the time in western media to give the russians an off ramp to give potent an off ramp. ok, which is a coated language for me. is it? how did, how does the westgate out of the predicament that it's put itself in? it constantly is having unto the west is looking because if you look at austin,

you look at a cellphone bird. you look at a barrel. if nato, if russia wins, it's the end of the west. but that's russian not phrasing it that way. it's still west phrasing. it though they're phrasing it as an existential, think not the russian. so it's almost so you know, this is a, they're, they're predicting their own future and a very bizarre way. go ahead in brussels this, i think your vis country to us a lot to do. we for the future are international, older, and are actually the west erwin survive. who will not disappear, but in the future are murky. put our old or the west to will not be able to dictate everything, any mo, that's her. that's a problem from the western part of you actually or b, sir, it is conflicting ukraine is accent reaching the process to also meant to put our

warm. yep. and if we look at the different to a piece, oats, or inert, 2011 or nato was still able to, to do a regime change in libya. but then in syria, it failed to which were the original change because russia intervened in cedar young to present 15. then he read the retreat of her washing done under a nature from a i've got stung in 2021. and then if her russian special operation in ukraine, after or no negotiations where the clothes down or from the, from the, from the ne to member states. because he didn't want to negotiate in europe and security arrangement and vis means. but what have of a result of his conflict in ukraine are probably you. quinn will be

a territoriality fragmented, but i'm convinced, but nato will not be able to enlarge any more a to ukraine. he's a future, a erotic a, a. well, i agree with you because this is the list as something i have about one more minute that this is the limit. this is do or die for nato in nato is going to lose this and it's lose it badly. and the very idea of having nato is going to be put into question because no one's going to want to join an organization that loses ted. well, this organization hasn't had any reason you exist. the dissolution of the soviet union full stop. it doesn't have a reason to exist, a can't find a reason to can't agree on one. and natal requires consensus and all of its members states to do anything. and it's never been able to agree, for example, it rushes the enemy until the start of this current on colored net. and now a lot of blue stock is being flung around about how russia the enemy nato could

never agree on that before. germany would never agree to that language. they couldn't agree that iran was an enemy because turkey wouldn't agree to that language. and now all of a sudden you've got, again, the nuclear exercises. you've got the mysterious demolition of natural gas pipelines to western europe. got the provision of advanced guided missiles, advanced anti radar missiles, advanced ship missiles to ukraine, some forms that have never been provided to any other l i have. i have to jump in here guys. we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard, grateful continue our discussion on the unthinkable. stay with our team the the

lou needs to come to the russians state total narrative. i've stayed on the northland ski with speedy when else calls with we will ban in the european union. the kremlin. yup. machine, the state on to russia for date and r t spoke neck given our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube with

a. ringback course she changes with force from national guido, which would you choose to when you have a controller like going to do it? no. but who do a lot with national anthem, a campus that the copier from. wanted to see that as the boys are new to me it's with. mm

ah welcome back. across stock. were all things are considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing the unthinkable. ah okay, but 1st off we have another guest joining of the discussion here. we have richard black in ashburn, he is a former virginia state senator. welcome to the program, richard i her, i know you listen to the a little bit of the 1st part of the program. so i'm gonna start off with a different topic. we've already seen how it, well, a white austin, the defense secretary. he made it very clear that the object of the united states is to weaken russia. well, maybe it, well maybe it won't. ok, but at the so far it really hasn't. it only has done as we can europe severely, and we'll see how the impact is on the united states. so why are they doubling down on something that doesn't work ok, weakening russia hasn't come about richard?

well, this is, this is not a short term project. if you go back to, to 2014, when under the obama administration, the decision was made to overthrow the government of kiev and install essentially a more or less pop in government and, and then flood weapons soon with the, with the view toward, toward building up a very large ukranian force. there is so much money invested. there is so much momentum that i think many people make a mistake by thinking of this war as something that began on february the 24th. and when, when russia came across the border, russia had managed to stay out of this war from the time that it started back in

2014. at that point you had this, this revolutionary hunter, which took over in kiev. and, and one of the 1st things they did was to remove russian as an official language from the constitution. 30 percent of all ukrainians are native speaking russians, many of them on the border. and. and so in the don bass and in crimea, paper just said ok, we're, we're out of here. you're going to do this. and so the war began, and this was, this was a very hot war. this was not just some little border answer. we had 14000 people killed before russia ever entered the war rush. i mean, richard, if i could point out here those, the almost $15000.00 the are referring to the don baths and those were killed by ukrainian force and supplied and money by nato to be very clear about that. those

15000 people are not remembered. and richard is absolutely right, this is going on the 8th year of this conflict. let me go to a peer menu. well, we keep hearing whatever it takes for ukraine. i mean, as a european, does europe have the stomach for this? do they are leads or do they represent the popular will? i mean, is it something that people in europe are really gung ho for? because i mean, i can read the papers, i can see oil prices, i see energy prices here, and it looks very doom and gloom. is it all worth it? ok, because we're, we're facing a rupture here. i don't know why the russians would rebuild nor stream. i don't know why so someone can blow it up again. i mean, this is a, a turning point in european history. go ahead and brussels. yes, we see quite amazing situation. where are you c or v, sir? european union member,

see governments on nato member state governments or aligning themselves on nerve inara, cheese on decisions. so to sanction rush out we've, we've washington or vo. i can see you many deeper or, or disagree back to i, i knew were experts, i know so military or peeper, or citizens who totally disagree. we visser approach with delivering your weapon suit to ukraine, having sanctions against russia, which dummy cheese, european economy. they are demonstrations indifferent to us, but the main news, 3 media does not speak about that just or relay or ver nora, chief of for nature, all member states, governments and are the must. atlantis ceased one and dura except for hungary, which shows a different position or view. your opinion of many citizens is not taken into

account on this. this will create, i think you're a crisis, your political crises, it's a future because are the governments i have a feeling does not represent the mainstream opinion of people in europe who are not stupid, the feeder, they, they, you're understand that this policies are damaging, the european economy for a job, pretty calm interest and certainly not europe and geopolitical age under cover of crises. we'd come in a few months in if you know, you're okay but yeah, everything would come. it will come about, you know, all 3 of my guests here. you know, we have the, the g 7 and we have the european, me and putting a price cap on russian energy. i think they get, have to worry about a price kept on american energy to going to europe. that's going to be very serious

because the americans are making money hand over fist. ok, what they want to deny the russians they want to take for themselves at the expense of europe. ted, explain to me, you know, that we have, we talked about in the 1st part of the program, this loose talk about nukes, you know, to make it normalized, they get it all that. but they don't want to negotiate. i mean, if we were on the point of armageddon, wouldn't that be the reason to start talking? but we don't see that we see loose talk and we see that see this very rigid position, explain the logic or maybe it's not logical at all. go ahead. i have no explanation to your i honestly don't. $954.00, the dawn of the thermo nuclear age. then prime minister, winston churchill said, meeting george to jaw is better than war 4 years later, his successor carol said george is better than. ready more war now, he was in australia at the time and maybe he thought he had to speak to the natives

. i don't know the same general idea. ok. diplomacy talk more importantly. listen. if someone says they've got read lines ok, maybe you respect them. maybe you don't, but for heaven's sake, hear them out. and that's what's been signally missing. but then the whole process of nato enlargement has been a series of selective deafness moments, nato, and us be when russia says, hey guys, we're not your enemy. stop moving towards us. you know, they were 3 bull take republics in, you know, boom, boom, boom, all of a sudden 2008 comes along. ukraine and ga are both promised. eventually, membership and nato promised, which mean nader did something that they couldn't deliver on. so it's pissing off russian russia for no good reason. it's trying to like cheer up ukraine in georgia

at that point, i suppose, but to no good in because it could do nothing to make that come true without getting rush on board would you couldn't do because they've been ignoring russian red lines. so to go back to the beginning to talk, you also have to be willing to listen, and that's something that nato and the west have not done here. well, i mean, richard, i mean you didn't say the men sca cords directly, but you were making reference to it in your 1st answer here. and that's a good jumping off point here. i mean, i'm all i printed ocean's. i want to see this conflict come to end as soon also i want to see the death and destruction come as soon as possible for everybody involved here. but there were that there was the mince process, the, the bridge and the germans, and the french signed off on it. mean the accords themselves were and went through the united nations security council. this was a legal, international document, but they weren't fulfilled the end. and we know that now that but the former president polish ankle said we'd never took it seriously. we're buying time.

stilton bird was bragging. how we use that time to help you. great. i mean they're all liars, they're not people that be trusted. and so, you know, when you the even the thought of coming to the negotiating table, will these people like to was for 8 years? why are they going to tell us the truth now that the west has done this to themselves? they did not keep their agreements. go ahead, richard. well, that's true. and, you know, i think people have forgotten. but about 2 months after russia crossed over the border, russia and ukraine were engaged and productive peace talks. and they had hammered out the basics of a peace agreement when, when bore she also, unexpectedly, or she, lawrence, johnson forced johnson for she and ordered them essentially, to cut off the peace talks and get back to war. we had no intentions. we have such an enormous investment in war that we were not about to to let

this going. and now hopefully we're getting closer to an end point. but i'm not sure. i worry somewhat about an october surprise we, i agree with you, but you know what? i mean, and we go back to up here in menu because we're rapidly running out of time. i don't think it's a coincidence. i'm obviously a cynic here, but you know, it's last year the afghan. griff came to an end. and now we have the ukraine graft, i mean there's so many interested parties not to see this conflict come to an end. and it gets down to this greed material interest. and this insufferable russo phobia wanting to punish russia, which is only damaging thus far. mostly the west and putting the global south in danger. go ahead and brussels. yes, actually are we know jeeps, but ter, are country sure was, are i said, a red h, and there are,

by of the west, just reporting you quain, at the time a winner or russia decided to or organize referendum enough of ukraine. and because then you were each was b is sort of you reverse cbre situation off to watts and dirt referendum were organized any weight or the people decided to reunify to russia. i know we are in the situation where the could not to we the ukrainian army offense, you prevent the situation. this is why they try to escalate or weavers. propaganda are a narrative of for, of a new cra, whoa, an o. so got to you. russia is supposed to lose the wall but. ready not to what we are seeing on the field on butter fee to do because of a situation is quite to frozen. and know is

a rare bessie bur. these territories are dumb bus, but also will cast an up or g i. there really faded russia and rock shot an army. we do everything to rates for the rest of her, of a country. all right, i'm going to jump anyway, right now we've run out of time, gentlemen, it's fascinating discussion. but the pain dial is going up in the pain is only hitting certain people, and that's the west in the global south. not russia. many, thanks them, i guess in ashburn, brussels an intense mania. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, darky. see you next time, remember, cross with ah, wish,

the most for so for this, russia is the aggression know his answer much about it. i mean, it wouldn't do too much, you should. so what i see, we have any quality for russians. can all we gotta do is just feed them over the head and just tell them the right way to live there is going to do it. yeah, just a boy with a boy. i'm with a lot of nice gloves with the new sure wouldn't. junior. we don't care about with

our human at the washer to work. so i would have to watch with when i was showing wrong, when i just don't know if you have to shape out the scene because of the advocate and engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves, well, the part we choose to look for common ground ah

ah, versus defense minister discuss the, the ukrainian dirty bomb issue with his chinese indian counts of russia's deputy envoy. the un says that he wants to draw nato into direct with moscow. romanian sen slams. the country is president for public supporting ukraine and its conflict with russia is not to do correct war and the french vice president of crisis stricken shod points the finger outside interference claiming foreign powers.