be murdered, just because mom thinks that can be murdered. the overturning of roe vs wade. well, it's a tremendous victory. it's historic victory. now ro gone. must be very clear. the health life of women, this nation, now at risk. mm . ah. hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . it is said talk is cheap, but loose talk about dirty bombs is nothing less than dangerous with both russia and ukraine preparing for new offensives. the west is not shy,

talking about nuclear weapons. is the west thinking the unthinkable. ah cross sucking the unthinkable. i'm joined by my guess peer, emanuel tom and in brussels. he is a lecture at lee oh university and in pens mania. we have ted see, he is a conflict consultant and retired us foreign service officer. right? gentleman cross our rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, i mean it's head 1st intense many. are you looking at the 3 of us right now? we're pretty much the same generation. um and we grew up being children of the cold war. not to think about the unthinkable having loose talk about nuclear weapons. but here we are, ted. it's almost in a casual way. it's being referenced in the media and by some western politicians. having said that, the russian side is never once even mentioned,

it is reacted to western commentary. but it is not proactively say we're going to use these weapons. there is not one case where you wouldn't know that following western media. ted. that's absolutely right. there's been a lot of very lose talk. you've got some former high ranking us military officials saying that the u. s. should join a multilateral military force ukraine, which is to say to take this thing from across. the ward was shooting more with russia. unfortunately, on the other hand, you mostly got people like retired admiral mike mullen, former chairman of the joint staff under president george w bush and president obama saying this talk is crazy, joe biden, talking about arm again. we have to back right off that we have to get to the negotiating table soon by one means or another. so it's not total insanity in the west, but my god, there's a lot of talk taking place here manual and brussels again. you know,

i want to go back to kind of when we were young men, there was the worry about having a limited nuclear war in europe. and now here we are all about 40 years, 50 years later with or we're hearing people talk about the unthinkable here. which i find is, is quite astounding because when i look at europe and i look at the united states, what is the national security interest of ukraine for the, for the united states in europe, please explain that to me because i can understand it. go ahead and brussels. oh yes soc jordy, your there was or who is if she are doing record all of her a nuclear war could o q e in the charter of europe. and because her, her been aware of nuclear weapons she, the u. s. nuclear weapons in russia, in soviet union, at the time, and the european st. you, we're feeding about to, they could be view your voucher. the t auto of is nuclear war,

and this is why you are united, changing the press decided to have their own new club or to, to have your own new situation for to see you, terence. 40. see, we say in english are now, oh we, we are, we are back to we stokes about to meet you new class strikes, but i think today or this is more a communication wall. i think you're very same. a huge communication campaign to try to depict russia as her, as he, i grace or on potentially using the nuclear bumper limited nuclear bumps. but i don't think cure is going to happen because it's part of the ser, oh, of, of the sure. the communication wall and not there, i told you can't one of the, you know, this all started lisa, the recent iteration of this as

a potential dirty bomb or false flag, which and we've all been expecting ever since the start of this conflict. because as i said in my introduction, the ukrainians and the russians are preparing for new offensives, probably sometime in the middle of next month. and then ukraine is going to be overwhelmed numerically. and so i'm not surprised or looking for a false flag of course, detonate something in plain the other side. that's the short handed bit here. ok, which of course will create a co collision of the willing. i'm sure you've heard that phrase before today is to escalate this conflict here. and the only way the west can really escalate is to go new killer. because for, for the everson in ever since the end of the cold war, the united states have been fighting herds been in the middle east. ok. they don't have that conventional capacity. and that's why you go from selling use or giving use junk to the ukrainians. all the way to the ultimate weapon, and that's the west has done that, not russia. go ahead 10. 0,

we've got the added complication, peter. the nato is in the process of practicing nuclear bombardment in europe or yep, under the rubric of steadfast noon, which it does every year. and this actually, when i was it nato, i worked with us mission today from 2008 to 2011 when i retired in the foreign service. and this drove home to me, the absurdity of the whole prospect of nato being, you know, a meaningful participant, did any european conflict that involve the russian federation. because back in the day when they designed these plans, nato was in west germany. the worst courses were in east germany, and you could fly a few 100 kilometers at the most who you could, someone. so it made sense to use small, single engine, jet aircraft, carrier, nuclear weapons. i mean, it didn't make a huge amount of sense,

but at least you could sort of envision it these days to even get to territory where you could drop a nuclear weapon. if you're talking about starting in germany, which is where us shared nuclear gravity, bombs are kept in the netherlands, belgian, germany, italy, and turkey. god, help us about getting a new u. s. b 61, gravity bomb nuclear bomb from germany to russian territory. you're going to have to fly thousands of kilometers. you're going to have to refuel in mid air, not once, not twice, but several times. and you're going to have to have a whole armada of conventional aircraft flying with you so that you can try and penetrate brush and aerospace. this is insane. this is a declaration of war. it's an act of worrying before you drop anything. so people talk about signaling using weapons, you can signal using these things. by the time you take off,

you committed an act of war. so you know, they're still exercising with this stuff. that's what steadfast noon is. that's getting good at this ridiculous mission of taking f sixteens. for god's sake, i mean the nuclear bombs onto them and pretending that they're going to fly to russia. is there any, any reason to doubt that this is not a credible nuclear deter it? as far as prison, sir, it's, it's absurd on its face here because let me go back to pear menu. well, i mean, this whole talk, this loose talk is a form of escalation in itself because the nato doesn't know really what to do. it's got it. it's painted itself into this corner and it's lashing out and that's the ultimate fear is going new killer, obviously appearing menu. well, one of the things i've noticed that it goes all the way back to 2014. you hear this all the time in western media to give the russians an off ramp to give potent an off ramp. ok, which is a coated language for me. is that how did,

how does the westgate out of the predicament that it's put itself in? it constantly is having and so the west is looking because if you look at austin, you look at a cellphone bird. you look at a barrel. if nato, if russia wins, it's the end of the west, but they to russian not phrasing it that way. it's the west phrasing it, though they're phrasing it as an existential thing, not the russian. so it's almost so you know, this is a, they're, they're predicting their own future and a very bizarre way. go ahead in brussels this, i think you're over this country to us a lot to do. we for the future, our international order and are actually the west erwin survive. who will not disappear, but in the future are murky. put our old or the west to will not be able to dictate everything, any mo, that's her. that's a problem from the western part of you. actually or b sir,

is conflicting ukraine is accent, arranging the process to was meant to put our war. yep. and if we look at the different to a piece, oats, or inert, 2011 or nato was still able to, to do a regime change in libya. but then in syria, it failed to which were the rigid change because russia intervened in syria and 2015. then he read the retreat of her washing done under a nato from a. i've got a stun in 2021. and then it ver, russia special operation in ukraine after or negotiations where a closed down or from the, from the, from the ne to member states. because he didn't want to negotiate in europe and

security arrangement and vis means. but what have of a result of his conflict in ukraine are probably you. quinn will be a territoriality fragmented, but i'm convinced, but nato will not be able to enlarge any more a to ukraine. he's a future, a erotic a, a. well, i agree with you because this is the list as a little guy about one more minute said this is the limits. i, mrs. do or die for nato in nato is going to lose this and it's lose it badly. and the very idea of having nato is going to be put into question because no one's going to want to join an organization that loses ted. well, peter, this organization hasn't had any reason. this is the dissolution of the soviet union. full stop. it doesn't have a reason to just to can't find a reason to can't agree on one. and nato requires consensus and all of its members states to do anything. and it's never been able to agree, for example,

it rushes the enemy until the start of this current conflict. and now a lot of loose talk is being flung around about how russia the enemy nato could never agree on that before. germany would never agree to that language. they couldn't agree that iran was an enemy because turkey wouldn't agree to that language. and now all the sudden you've got, again, the nuclear exercises, you've got the mysterious demolition of natural gas pipelines to western europe. got the provision of advanced guided missiles, advanced anti radar missiles, advance ship missiles to ukraine, some forms that have never been provided to any other l i have. i have to jump in here guys. we have to go to a hard break. and after that hard, grateful continue, our discussion on the unthinkable. stay with our team. the

oh, lisa hunter, russian state, a little narrative. i stayed on the northland fever. i can also send up with 55 with speed anyone else with will ban in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machines the state on russia today and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube with

hulu. ringback because she knew spencer with buffalo, new that was the name is us, are forced from national quito, which would you choose to when you have a couple like going to do or not. but who would you a to go with the national anthem, a campus that the carpet from wanted to see. the boys are new to me.

it's with me. ah welcome back. across stock. were all things are considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing the unthinkable. ah okay, but 1st off we have another guest joining of the discussion here. we have richard black in ashburn. he is a former virginia state senator. welcome to the program, richard. i her, i know you listen to the a little bit of the 1st part of the program. so i'm gonna start off with a different topic. we've already seen how the, the, well, a white austin, the defense secretary. he made it very clear that the object of the united states is to weaken russia. well, maybe it, well maybe it won't. ok, but at the so far it really hasn't. it only has done as we can europe severely,

and we'll see how the impact is on the united states. so why are they doubling down on something that doesn't work ok, weakening russia hasn't come about richard? well, this is, this is not a short term project. if you go back to, to 2014, when under the obama administration, the decision was made to overthrow the government of kiev and install essentially a more or less on top of government. and, and then flood weapons soon with the, with the view toward, toward building up a very large ukrainian force. there is so much money invested. there is so much momentum. that is, i think, many people make a mistake by thinking of this war as something that began on february the 24th.

and when, when russia came across the border, russia had managed to stay out of this war from the time that it started back in 2014. at that point you had this, this revolutionary hunter, which took over in kiev. and, and one of the 1st things they did was to remove russian as an official language from the constitution. 30 percent of all ukrainians are native speaking russians, many of them on the border. and. and so in the don bass and in crimea, paper just said ok, we're, we're out of here. we're going to do this. and so the war began, and this was, this was a very hot war. this was not just some little border answer. we had 14000 people killed before russia ever entered the war rush. i mean, richard,

if i could point out here those, the almost 15000 the are referring to the don bass and those were killed by ukrainian forces supplied and money by nato to be very clear about that. those 15000 people are not remembered. and richard is absolutely right, this is going on the 8th year of this conflict. let me go to a peer menu. well, we keep hearing whatever it takes for ukraine. i mean, as a european, does europe have the stomach for this? do they are leads or do they represent the popular well, i mean, is it something that people in europe are really gung ho for? because i mean, i can read the papers, i can see oil prices, i see energy prices here, and it looks very doom and gloom. is it all worth it? ok, because we're, we're facing a rupture here. i don't know why the russians would rebuild nor stream. i don't know why so someone can blow it up again. i mean, this is a, a turning point in european history. go ahead and brussels. yes,

we see quite amazing situation. where are you c or v, sir? a european union member, see government, son on nato members. state governments are and lining themselves on nerve inara, cheese on decisions. so to samsung, russia, we've, we've washington, or vo, i can see a mini, deeper or a disagree back to i. i knew were experts i know so military or peeper, or citizens who totally disagree or we visser approach with delivering your weapon suit to ukraine, having sanctions against russia, which dummy cheese, european economy. they are demonstrations in different competitors. but the main news tree media does not speak about the adjuster or relay or ver nora, chief of her nature, all member states governments, and are the must. atlantis ceased one and her except for hungary,

which shows a different position or view your opinion of for many citizens is not taken into account on this. this will create, i think you're a crisis, your political crisis is a future because are the governments i have a feeling does not represent the mainstream opinion of people in europe who are not stupid. they the feeder, they, they, they, your understand that this policies are damaging the european economy for, oh, geopolitical interest and certainly not european. jeopardy can each of the, of, of crises. we'd come in a few months in a few euros, but everything would come. it will come about, you know, all 3 of my guests here. you know, we have the, the g 7 and we have the european, me and putting a price cap on russian energy. i think they get,

have to worry about a price kept on american energy going to europe. that's going to be very serious because the americans are making money, hand over fist. ok, what they want to deny the russians they want to take for themselves at the expense of europe had explained to me, you know, that we have, we talked about in the 1st part of the program, this loose talk about nukes, you know, to make it normalized they get it all that, but they don't want to negotiate. i mean, if we were on the point of armageddon, wouldn't that be the reason to start talking? but we don't see that we see loose talk and we see this very rigid position. explain the logic or maybe it's not logical at all. go ahead. i have no explanation to your i honestly don't. 954. the dawn of the thermo nuclear age. then prime minister winston churchill said, meeting john to jaw is better than war. 4 years later, his successor, carol, mila said george is better than. ready more war now,

he was in australia at the time and maybe he thought he had to speak to the natives . i don't know the same general idea. ok. diplomacy talk more importantly. listen. if someone says they've got read lines ok, maybe you respect them. maybe you don't, but for heaven's sake, hear them out. and that's what's been signally missing. but then, the whole process of nato enlargement has been a series of selective deafness moments, nato, and us behalf. when russia says, hey guys, we're not your enemy. stop moving toward us. you know, they were 3 baltic republics in, you know, boom, boom, boom, all of a sudden, 2008 comes along ukraine and you're both promised. eventually, membership and nato promised, which mean nader did something that they couldn't deliver on. so it's pissing off

russian russia for no good reason. it's trying to like cheer up ukraine in georgia at that point, i suppose, but to no good in because it couldn't do nothing to make that come true without getting rush on board would you couldn't do because they've been ignoring russian red lines. so to go back to the beginning to talk, you also have to be willing to listen, and that's something that nato and the west have not done here. well, i mean, richard, i mean you didn't say the men sca cords directly, but you were making reference to it in your 1st answer here and that's a good jumping off point here. i mean, i'm all i am print ocean's. i want to see this conflict come to end as soon also i want to see the death and destruction come as soon as possible for everybody involved here. but there were that there was the minced process, the, the bridge, and the germans, and the french signed off on it. the, the courts themselves were on went through the united nations security council. this, it was a legal international document, but they weren't fulfilled the in, in,

and we know that now that with the former president polish ankles had our we never took it seriously. we're buying time stilton burge was bragging. how we use that time to help you. great, i mean they're all liars, they're not people that be trusted. and so, you know, when you the even the thought of coming to the negotiating table, will these people lied to was for 8 years? why are they gonna tell us the truth now? that the west has done this to themselves. they did not keep their agreements. go ahead, richard. well, that's true. and, you know, i think people have forgotten. but about 2 months after russia crossed over the border, russia and ukraine were engaged in productive peace talks. and they had hammered out the basics of a peace agreement when, when bore she also, unexpectedly, morcia lawrence, johnson and force johnson and ordered them essentially to cut off the peace talks and get back to war. we had no intentions.

we have such an enormous investment in war that we were not about to to let this going. and now hopefully we're getting closer to an end point. but i'm not sure. i worry somewhat about an october surprise we, i agree with you, but you know what? i mean, and we go back to up here menu because we're rapidly running out of time. i don't think it's a coincidence. i'm obviously authentic here. but you know, it's last year the afghan griffith came to an end. and now we have the ukraine. griff, i mean, there are so many interested parties not to see this conflict come to an end, and it gets down to this greed material interest. and this insufferable russo phobia wanting to punish russia, which is only damaging thus far, mostly the west, and putting the global south in danger. go ahead and brussels. yes,

actually are we know jeeps but to her country? sure was. are i sent a re h under a by you the west, just reported you quain, at the time, oh, when no rush, i decided to or organize referendum enough of ukraine and to because then you were each was b is sort of, you reverse cbre ration off to watts and dirt referendum where organize any weight or the people decided to reunify you to russia? i know we are a situation where they could not to, we ukrainian army offense. you prevent the situation. this is why they try to escalate or weaver propaganda are a narrative of for, of a neutral whoa. and also got to you. russia is supposed to lose the wall,

but not to what we are seeing on the field about their feet a do because of a situation is quite to frozen and know you are a bessie bur. these territories are dumb bus, but also were cason or g. i there really favorite russia and do russian army, we do everything to rates for the rest of for of a country. all right, i'm going to jump anyway, right now. we've run out of time and it's fascinating discussion, but the pain dial is going up in the pain is only hitting certain people. and that's the west in the global south. not russia. many thanks them, i guess, in ashburn, brussels an intense mania. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, darky. see you next time remember crossed up with ah

ah, the more so we're show you the most all or so for is you do with russia is the aggression know his answer much about by music or did you must use it's wellborn. what i see. we have any quality for russians can all we gotta do is just read them over the head and just tell them the right way to live and they're gonna do it. yeah, just a little bit, a boy with boy. i'm with mr. morrison this fall. but us the list with nice gloves, with the

new share, with friends, with our season at the washer to work. so i was at the watch with when i was shown seemed wrong. when i was just a shape out, this thing becomes the advocate and engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. a good deal. ukraine has

lost a regularly used by the u. s. as a battering ram again, right? a lot of i can say is new cranium being constantly pumped with weapon to the toilet . western foreign policy. also ahead with nuclear, the terran for his output to the test would see and the ground test lose his of ballistic includes midtown ever made in sen, plans the country president for public.