ah mm mm mm mm welcome to was a part of the great german play, right? read, read on chiller remark 2 centuries ago. that france show us what we can do. both both teach us what we should do. historically, russia and germany have been both close collaborators and mortal enemies was tried and tested relationship laid the groundwork for peace and prosperity of europe over the last 50 years. what awaits the continent now that these connections are being purposefully severed at the americas bidding well to discuss it. i'm now enjoined by harley slang or vice president of the shuler institute. mr. langer is great to

talk to you. thank you very much for your time. well, thank you very much for your invitation. now let us start with the practical things . i know that the germans used to be known for that practicality and attention to business and the other day german chancellor. all of shoulds remarked that one of the, i guess silver linings of the current confrontation between russia and the west in ukraine is the fact that germany is on track well being fully liberated from its dependence on russia's energy sources. is that full freedom as far as you're concerned? they're just trading one dependence for another? well, you know, has the freedom, the frees the freedom to not have food. the current government in germany is a disaster. and it's trying to use the situation that's outside of its control to carry out a transition, which i think is a foolish transition of we at the show or institute. think that the idea of

a 0 net carbon world doesn't function and what's needed is new technologies and what's needed also is collaboration. and instead the idea that somehow we can use a war for a transition to a policy which won't work, makes no sense. and i think the coalition is starting to fall apart because people are going out into the streets in germany as they are throughout europe. and we just saw the fiasco in great britain. so i think the western world is facing the kind of transformation that they're not ready for. you mentioned, there has been a change of power in great britain. and they were also some changes in other countries like italy or sweden. but i would argue that the change of leadership happened without a change of policies. what, how long do you think it will take before actual changes? some sort of connection to reality happens?

well, it depends on how dedicated the people who are pushing these changes are. i saw the demonstrations signs from paris and rome in the last couple of days with signs saying out of the you, out of nato. that's a shift. no, i don't think the government should have been elected. are ready to leave the european union or nato. but the people are, the people are being told you have to freeze for the sake of nato. and i don't think that's a good selling point in germany or anywhere. how can i ask you something? and maybe that's my sort of jericho at heritage posing this question. but i think people in the west invest too much in the power of protests, you know, taking to this treat, to change policy. and historically, if we are objective, you know, there have been massive protest against the war in iraq. many millions of people took to the streets and across several continents. but that changed nothing. c and

right now we're seeing, as you say, in many products in many european capitals, but it's really effective in terms of changing the, the main course of policies that the leads have chosen and seem to be cleaning on to why safety elites are beginning to realize that there are established policies aren't working and when there are people in the streets, it gives them an excuse to change policies. for example, what's happening in the united kingdom. the fact that millions of people are having only one meal a day or they're turning their heat down. they're worried about freezing this winter. that has an impact eventually. and i think we'll, we're seeing is the, the establishment of the tory party trying to decide is it worth sticking from that with us more against russia and ukraine for the sake of, they know, and european union. and that's where protest make a difference. and they give people a chance to shift policy and they can always say, well,

we're being popular. that's what happened with the vietnam war. it took a long time, but the establishment finally turned against it in the united states. and now while we're seeing, as you say, a very, very minor shifts and policies, they're also major changes in how the european economy is structured. and i mentioned in the beginning the disruption of a gas trade between russia and germany. and we'll know that any decision has, you know, comes with its own price tag. it's no secret that the americans are selling alan gee, and to europe at a price of $4.00 times higher than they charge the master replies. there is a, a real logistical issue with the shortage. also allen g tankers. when we put all those factors together, what do you think it, these new energy arrangement, whatever it is, because i think at this point of time, it's not even coming constantly did. but what do you think these new energy arrangements would mean? both the german industry and for the german style of life?

german industry is protesting quite vigorously right now, at least through the official channels. the, they're basically saying we're being de industrialized. we're going to lose one and a half 1000000. industrial jobs in germany. germany is the motor of europe's economy. if that happens, it's going to be felt in every country when germany catches a cold, it's pneumonia and the rest of the continent. now the, the fact is that the chancellor was forced to shift at least minimally on the anti nuclear policy. so they'll keep 3 plants open until next april. there's a fight from industry saying that's not adequate. when sholtes went to the middle east to try and come up with oil and natural gas that didn't work. there are limited options and now something to keep an eye on. i just was informed today that the treasury us treasury department and state department sent 3 officials to turkey

to warn the turkish government about becoming too closely linked with russia. so any of these changes are going to come with the political brawl, and we'll see, to what extent the nato threat and the threat coming from the united states can keep these countries in line. can i ask you something about a germany being and the motor of, of the european economy? because the other day i there wasn't use that for so i again the german carman and factor is considering moving its production to the united states, which i think is it very noteworthy news not only economically, but also symbolically. what does default the people i think about it. well those are not going to be german jobs if they're moved to the united states. there's a secondary problem though, which is whether there's a skilled labor force large enough in the united states to have volkswagen succeed . but the strategy for german industry has been to work with russia and to work

with china. volkswagen has big moves to china in the last decade. and now you have reports coming out from the anti russian. think tank such as the atlanta council on the chatham house warning, it's a mistake for europe to be linked to industrial projects with china and russia. but you know what this comes back to. this is the old british geo politics from 1900. the idea that a russian german alliance is it from the existential threat for the british system . and the americans didn't always have that view. but since the collapse of the soviet union, most in america have adopted that. and that's why, you know, the all slogan, nato was the purpose of nato is keep the u. s. in the russians out, and the germans down. when will the germans break with that? that's the issue that i think is going to determine whether europe can be moved out

of this war time alliance into a potential for a new security and financial architecture. we hear a lot in the, in the european union that the, you know, the security piece through common training. but for the soviet union creating this, you know, network of pipelines, a with germany and brought europe was also an investment into piece. i mean that security infrastructure existed and it existed through trade, and i agree with you that this is the old anglo saxon scheme. and what i don't understand is why the german school, at least 50, we in russia believe that germans have a better understanding of history and better knowledge of history than most americans and the breeds. why do they go along with it? well, let's take a look at 2 simple historic examples to report a treaty, a 100 years ago in 1922. when vol to rot know, worked out an arrangement with the soviet union broke with the versailles agreement

. what happened the rock? now, he was assassinated, 2 months later go then to 1989 when the fall of the soviet union raised the question of what would germany's policy be towards russia. and you had bush and thatcher emitter on basically saying we can't let russia re emerge as of power. but you had in germany, the alfred hare houses of deutsche bank who wanted to invest in upgrading russian industry. he realized you had a skilled labor force, you had a market potential. he was assassinated. so i think that there's been this threat that is very palpable. assembly women rico mateus in italy in 1960. when he was trying to work out an agreement with the soviets. so this is how it's the use of force, whether it's nato, whether it's deployment of karen's. and there is a lot of talk here in russia that the americans are actually interested in the

repeat of and paper clip alteration when they take not only industrial facilities from the old euro, but it's best specialist and the best expertise. do you think that's a conspiracy theory, or do you think something like that is actually being well, just let's look at the else and period. the shock therapy policy, supposedly designed to help russia modernize. all he did was transfer wealth out of the hands of russians. and bring in a few oligarchs, as, as co workers, co benefactors. but the jail politics, as a theory, is always connected to money when connected to control of resources control of industry. the whole green policy is a d, industrialization policy, the industrialization against german. remember after world war 2, there were people who said, germany should never be allowed to industrialize again. and thankfully franklin roosevelt didn't have that idea. and we, we saw germany emerge as

a strong economy and democratic nation. that's not the view so much anymore. and the de industrialization of germany will have a profound negative impact on peace. and when you mentioned the question of pipelines as part of a new financial architecture, we also see the emergence of things such as the shanghai cooperation organization, duration, economic forum, and the bricks. the bricks are growing, the saudis are want to come into the bricks. these are real questions for the global south, the former non aligned nations that didn't want to be part of a block. now they're seeing the potential because of russia and china and india also, that there is life after the collapse of the anglo american system. so this is something i think is getting through to the british, i don't think is getting through to the americans yet. but i think what we're seeing in britain is an attempt to adapt to the potential that this war and, and, and this policy is not going to succeed. ok, well, mr. slang or we have to take

a very short break right now. but we know going back in just a few moments stitching. ah, in ah, a ah, yes, watch. and it was a, a, a,

a, [000:00:00;00] a, a welcome back to room to parts are harley schrager, vice president of the sheila institute, mr. slang or before the break. we mentioned the concept of dust for the people and i did it on purpose because this confrontation between russian to west we often

hear references to nasa's and this concept of dust or was critical thought. i don't, people are, he actually saw the people that's formed as a natural unit of humanity and believe that the whole and the sole purpose of the state was to, to serve the people. i wonder if this gentleman, anxiety around the question of national interest, is at least partially related to germany. not so want. is it somehow shameful to stand out for your country, for your country's interest? because this is something that nat says use jack stall. well, i would argue that he didn't really stand for national interest, but that his government represent here is you can wait and that idea, these people you put that out there. but it was really a government of corporations, of corporate cartels, including trust arrangements with british and american firms. but the point you're making is, is quite an important one, which is that in germany after world war 2,

there was this collective guilt that was imposed on the german people. and i'm an american, but when i 1st started coming to germany, i realize that people were afraid to sing the german national anthem, which is a beautiful song based on a melody from yoseph heights. they were embarrassed because they thought it made them look like ultra nationalist, neo nazis. so i think love of one's country is absolutely crucial to live a full life. but a show are said, you should be a patriot of your nation, but a citizen of the world. and i think the germans sometimes think ideally of being citizens in the world, but they're scared of being identified as nationalists. i speaking about nationalism, i think there are 2 distinct kinds of nationalism that we're seeing emerging around the world right now. and they're actually at work with a child there. one is the sort of mana, ethnic, or want to ideological and nationalism of the kinds missing. i would argue in the

ukraine, also in poland. and the 2nd kind is represented by russia, poly ethnic, or even imperial nationalism. but i think the crucial difference between the 2 of them is how differently they approach diversity. russia, because it's so multifaceted, it has to come up with its own way of dealing with those differences. whereas in a ukraine or in poland on those differences and being eliminated and sometimes quite forcefully. now, one would think that because of all its historical sensibilities, germany wouldn't be opposed to mon, that ethnic morning, ideological form of nationalism. but it is not why. well, the irony here is that the germans should be embarrassed about providing arms to military which has embedded within a neo nazi units. that should be the 1st thing that a german should be upset about. and yet the media consistently denies that. the as

off brigade and the right sector, the private sector and others have nazi backgrounds or the stuff on monday or was a nazi collaborator during world war 2. now on the nationalism question, but there's a form of nationalism which is in the united states of america. first, the idea of separating and isolating from the rest of the world. and we're seeing that somewhat and polling the ukranian nationalism you're mentioning. but i think what we see with president putin and what i would like to see in germany in the united states is leaders who define a mission for a nation and national mission. you know, bringing justice to the world of peace, economic development cooperation. that's where you can be proud of your nation, but seeing your nation as working for the mutual benefit of other nations, that was the original idea of the piece of westphalia, which ended the 30 years war and europe, which unfortunately since 1999,

tony blair said that era is over. we now have a responsibility to protect. in other words, regime change against governments. we don't like that's the problem in the west right now. yeah, and mr. chang, i think it's also concurrent with that quote from official area which you mentioned a moment ago about being an authentic patron and also being a citizen of the world. i don't think there is any contradiction between these 2 terms. speaking of which, i know that schiller good than many other gentlemen are writers and thinkers. i'm still very much appreciated in russia. in fact, i think much of their russian nation, despite the current circumstances, remain and germanic files, including the leader of this country. and we do have the steer and type of the germans as practical, national people who are friendly with the critical thinking. who know how to use it

. people who are punctual people who try to be fair to themselves and the rest of their world who are conscientious is that still a permanent part of the german national character. while i was laughing because of the question of bootlegs being on time in germany, the younger generation is very much now like the americans where time is relative and you don't worry about wasting someone else's time. no, i think that the broader point you're making is a real one. i have young children in the schools here and we have one teacher who i talked to who said, well, she'd like to introduce schiller, but it's not part of the curriculum anymore. just as in the united states, shakespeare is being taken out of the schools. so the great classical thinkers who provide an insight into how humans civilization developed are being taken away. once you do that,

you rip away an anchor which connects the past and the present and hopefully the future. and i, i think the, when held is up, the ruth found the schiller institute. the idea was that we want to revive these brain humanistic. classical principles on both sides of the atlantic at that time. because at that point you had a split developing between the united states and germany. you have the missile crisis in europe and the 1000 eighty's for 984. we set up the show or institute, which is now in virtually every country around the world. and i, i think we're finding a resonance for these very ideas. and i think it will happen in germany also because they know, and germany idea of classical culture is still there, but it's now being under assault in the same way it is in the west generally. do you think that's just that because people are ignorant and don't appreciate that, that a great culture isn't being done on purpose because as i'm concerned,

it's not just about the connection between the past and the present. it's about what makes a human being as fully flashed into the individual or real, to make their own judgments. do you think that that's just the way it is, or do you think somebody actually has a plan for trying to get rid of this heritage? well, i was graduate student in 1972 and that when the rouge and what he talked about to us was that the rock sex drug counterculture, which was taking over the campuses. and embedded within the anti war movement was an operation to destroy the traditional sense of the commitment to the idea of progress, which was embedded in the u. s. constitution. and was the outlook of our best president, such as george washington, lincoln, franklin roosevelt. you take that away and start to say that anything goes, i think sergey love ross talks about post christian culture in the west. you see

that you see this sense the whatever you want, you should do. and you know, it's not that you have value judgments against people. you try to understand what people are doing, but you can understand what people are doing if you have no grounding or more and for yourself. and i think by taking that away from people, you create a situation where people become indifferent to the suffering this being imposed by your nation on other nations. and that to me is the most horrible aspect of this that the united states is starving people in afghanistan, starving people in yemen with sanctions, is committed to destroying the living standards of the people in russia. for what purpose? for the purpose of weakening russia and making sure that the unit polar order is left on challenge. and that to me is the highest level of immortality. which gets right at this question, you're talking about tearing away that,

which is most beautiful and western culture. now we are also witnessing a very interesting phenomenon of, of cancelling russia or cancelling the russian culture when you have institutions banning classical works of dusty of sky or tolstoy as well as the banning or russian performers from getting concerts. and i think that shows that the reaction to russia is very intense, very, very strong. and i heard some people here in russia suggest that this level of gemini zation and trying to ostracize russia is actually reflective. and it's so intense because of the europe's own fear. of themselves, if you, if you know what, i mean, that they are trying to project their own fears that own memories or what have been done in europe. because let's be honest. traditionally,

russian major security threats always came from europe, both the french and the german army, and the, you know, the extent of carnage that was visited on this, on this country is unparalleled. do you think there's any truth to that? the europeans hate the russians so much at this point because they're actually very much afraid of themselves and what they can do, i'm not sure as the, the europeans hate the russians. i think there's an attempt to do that with the stories of barbarism and ukraine and so on. and they're ignoring what the, the west is done, whether it was iraq or libya, or even the fact that the, the situation in ukraine didn't start in february 2022. it started in february 2014, when the west carried out a coup against the democratic democratically elected government. so, you know, i think there's a, a real shortage of historic knowledge in the west and they're playing on that. but i can tell you one thing,

i'm taking my children to see the nutcracker this christmas. and you know, the, the idea that you can destroy a culture. because it's supposedly it is contributing to racism. well, that's for individuals to determine and the idea that you're going to try and get rid of dostoyevsky and tchaikovsky and so on is an absurd characteristic of western nihilism. and, well, it's only absurd if you don't actually think that they're trying to get rid of people's deaf, you know, real psychological stuff. if you, if you look at those writers, you know, and just a ski schiller get 6 pair, they're all about what it needs to be human and the most difficult point in your life. and if you limit access to that knowledge for, for the people that makes it very easy to manipulate, die political opinions. and that's indeed one of the ways of turning an individual

into a crowd, a faceless crowd. now, president putin has given many speeches. he's pretty straightforward about having no qualms to use military force to defend russia's national interest. but he also made it clear that he is eager to come to the negotiating table and he is eager to discuss peace with the ukrainians. there are rumors here in moscow that the meeting between putting in zelinski may take place at the g 20 summit and indonesia, even though that has not been confirmed. i wonder, what's your sense of the conflict dynamics do you think we have come to a point where the benefits of peace would all over wave the benefits of war? well, i think we were actually at that point in february, and the president prudent was very patient and trying to explain to the west why russia is concerned about adversarial military forces being placed on the border. you know, where the 60th anniversary of the cuban missile crisis. that's what john f kennedy

said about soviet missiles in cuba and put his argument that you can have this accepted by russians from national security. you know, that's a valid argument, but it was rejected. and so there's going to have to be a change in thinking on the west. and i think what's going to start happening is the idea of spending billions of dollars to arm ukrainians. well, people in the west don't have food, don't have heat in the united states. the families of american servicemen and women are being told to go on food stamps because they're not getting enough money to cover for inflation to feed their children. and yet $60000000000.00 is going to zalinski and the us off the telephones to to attack the dunbar. so i think the question is how clearly we can get a message. that piece is the only way out, but piece is not a question of surrender. it's a question of mutual security and president thornton has been clear that he's

offering you security guarantees to your crime as well as wanting them for russia. mr. shiner, i have to, we have to leave it there, but i'm really grateful to you for being with us today. well, thank you. and it was very good talking. and thank you for watching hope to see her again on worlds and part ah with mm ah, ah,

ah . oh, for the 2nd world war i think 2 millions of people. war during the conflict. the balance of power was held by the leaders of 3 nations. the united kingdom, the united states and the u. s. s. on