has never been clearly escalated. the inherently subjective nature of what constitutes disinformation provides a broad opening for d h. s. officials to make publicly motivated determinations about what constitutes dangerous speech. the d test justifies all that by saying that misinformation can push people to terrorism, but it seems they knew that what they were doing was bad because they hired 3rd party companies to do the research so that it didn't look like government propaganda. subcommittee members discuss designating a point of contact as a clearinghouse for trusted information x and mister hale suggested designating the ice x as a clearinghouse for information to avoid the appearance of government propaganda. but the government's role was hard to sweep on to the carpet as the f b, i was deeply involved in the case as documents show, ms. dam low, the agent of the federal bureau of investigation known for crushing they hunter by

the laptop story briefed. the dia chess is cyber security and infrastructure security agency. on her vision of the ideal media miss tim low was asked to provide her thoughts. she stated, we need immediate infrastructure that is held accountable. we need to early educate the populace. and that to day critical thinking seems to be a problem. currently, the department of homeland security was set up post 911 to counter foreign terror groups. and now it's fighting disinformation. is this america's new war on terror? or is it at terror on its own citizens freedoms guaranteed by the 1st amendment? that was all his maria finacialow reposing more of the alleged u. s. government class. so control global tech charms. well that's all for me today. up next is phil laval on cost talk. i need you to know neil will be here in

the future, the top of the hour. i'm for mommy with you all a care every day. ah, [000:00:00;00] with ah

ah. hello and welcome to cross back, where all things are considered. i'm peter level, for most prior to february 24th. ukraine was just another eastern european country . since then. the conflict in ukraine has created deep divisions all across europe and beyond russia. in europe today virtually have no common ground. this may be the case for a very long time becomes, ah, cross ducking, europe and russia divided. i'm joined by my guess, the bush, a mileage in washington. he's a blogger and calmness in brick. we have lucas gauge. he is a u. s. m. c veteran, author and philosopher. and in london we cross add real concentra. he is a founder of aka consulting and a foreign affairs analysts or a gentleman crossing roles in effect. that means you can jump in in time. you want and i always appreciate the voice you let me go to you 1st. um we have the jury, the german president,

our son meyer says at berlin and moscow are now opponents. he describes russia's a military operation in ukraine as a watershed. now that kind of got me thinking, because i'm in the early 2, thousands when we, when the, the war in afghanistan started, there was a public opinion polls when some university. and they asked the afghans does 911 mean anything to you, the date, 911. and like 98 percent of the people who've asked to get it that nope, doesn't mean much to me at all. the reason why i'm bringing this up is they stein meyer again with this kind of neo colonial attitude. a. the world must accept the west's dates and what it can bitters to be. watersheds we have to the whole world has to run on their calendar. because i mean, if you're looking at ukraine, i think a lot of people and ukraine, and particularly in russia, would say, i think we had to go back to the clinton administration with nato expansion here.

why am i bringing this up? because that we have a parallel ways we have different narratives, and when one narrative does not accept it, there is another alternative narrative to understanding something. we have a deadlock and that's what we have now with the west in russia. thoughts, my friend go. absolutely. i mean, i'm on the records that the actual watershed was in 1999 when nato decided to expand and bomb yugoslavia, thereby obliterating any pretence that actually cared about international law. and that's literally the time where it last, russia, for all intents and purposes, i mean, this is, this is all documented it's, it's a wealth, well documented hypothesis. so what we're seeing today are the consequences of this, of these actions that there, this is not something that you know just happened yesterday. i know that a lot of people in the west including sy meyer have the memories of squirrels of on

amphetamines. but, you know, the world didn't start yesterday and, and, you know, choices have consequences and i'm sorry, but as somebody who's from a country that got invaded by nazi germany in world war 2, for germans to say anything about, you know, opponents and this, and the other especially after their own experience with russia over the past 2 centuries is just too rich. i mean, you can, can you even make one of this stuff? you know, used to be that the germans had to go to stalingrad to freeze to death and now they can just sit at home. and that's not because of russia, it's because they're all stupid policies. they built their entire economy on access to russian energy. and then they cut it off despite themselves. we'll look how well that's going for them. well, and the boy should make him stay with you, sir. chilled sense, what, how i referred to him on this program when he was in moscow before the complex started. and they were talking about ethnic cleansing in the dumbass. he laughed

again. german laughing at ethnic cleansing. it's something that it said it's just an unbecoming of a german leader here. let me go to lucas in the same vein here. may i look at, you know, responsible state craft in some articles in the american conservative. and they love to use this word, unprovoked, unprovoked. but this goes back to when a boy was talking about it, you know, you don't have to go too far to see that this was intentionally provoked. lucas. yes, i mean, these words are engineered. if you ask me, that's my opinion on this whole thing. they know opens gonna respond and know what to push his buttons and the western media start with. he invaded, that's where they start that and the most people thing. oh my god, he invaded unprovoked. why did he do? this is a madman. he's going to take all of you crate. he's going to take all of europe. we've heard these narratives before. so most people have no idea that the truth is this is going on for a long time. as he mentioned earlier, and you know, the shelling and on bost ethnic cleansing in the region which is being denied by

the german people there. and here we go is repeating the same lies again. that is unprovoked when the reality, the miss agreements, the, the shelling in the people there, the ethnic cleansing, that making it illegal to speak. russia. i mean, that's how can i not be ethnic cleansing, right? there's, well, these are all facts undisputed facts. so when the west is starting the narrative with, he invaded for no reason that he's a madman. they're lying to everyone. unfortunately, europeans are going to suffer this winter because of these lies that their leaders are telling them the same wise has sent me to iraq. and other regions in the middle east as well, with all my fellow marines or the go fight in afghanistan, whatever the case of them that same wise against the saw is the same script, different actors, that's what we're seeing here. but andrea, if we, if we can say with the unprovoked element here, well, if you assume that something is unprovoked, then you cannot negotiate. because you promote you, you did this intentionally, you woke up in the morning and suddenly you want to invade a country, hear it because of the narrative here. you can even begin to think about

negotiations because you're narrow. it is predicated on something that is absolutely false. go ahead in london and whoa, i agree, i mean the, the purpose, the whole purpose of this, linguistic. i love this linguistic gum. no, no attempts to, to, to somehow condemn bratia and portray i put in as a madman. serve the one purpose of not, you know, i'm coming to the table and having a meaningful discussion with russia. because if we assume all, if we paint a full, all, all over a hostile country, in our opinion as being, you know, a mad and irrational. there's no incentive to have any discussion, but what is lacking in this bowl? ukrainian, russian, this course is that the entire conflict and ukraine is a small piece of

a larger picture. it is not about the ukraine. we know that in 2014, ah, this conflict has been frozen after now the annexation, or all of crimea by russia. we know that this conflict was brewing for 8 years. but this a conflict is a part of a larger of larger pictures. i've said it is a, the picture is that the u. s. for germany is fading. the or the power of united states is fading. and we know that the new actors and new a power centers are managing as president by the name put in right. be sent during the valet discussion club and at ukraine it's use as a tool to clench the the uni paulo. moment that is long gone. the same applies to taiwan. so at these flashing points in asia, which relates to taiwan and, and, and,

and in eastern europe, ukraine are the flushing points where the united states is trying to somehow provoke the major powers like russia and try enough to engage them in the continuous lee of fighting a proxy war with its allies in europe or in asia, and somehow by some time for the us policymakers to figure out how they can prolong the address. and don't forget the arms makers. ok, that's a key element. and all of this here, one gripped, replaces another graph, gattis and to ukraine, here. and the boy should let me go back to you here. i mean, i'm very curious, you know, so is it worth losing russia to get ukraine and what you crane are they getting? i mean, i find these, you know, these conferences about rebuilding ukraine, you know, 10 year plan and all about. they have no idea what they're talking about,

what ukraine is going to be. do you think for regions that have joined russia, going to suddenly return? i don't go ahead and washington. well there's, there's always these reconstruction conferences and you mentioned griffith earlier . this is one another for ro, griffin. i mean, i remember in bosnia they were doing reconstruction and you're talking about reconstruction a year before the war ended. how do you rebuild of things that can keep getting destroyed on a daily basis? that's insane. you can't plan for reconstruction until the war is over. and there's this, this particular war shows no sign of ending the least because western intransigence it could end to morrow. if washington that's actually pulling the financial and political strings of kiev said ok enough, but it won't the kit. so what do we even talking about? no, we did the reconstruction conferences there just another money laundering scheme. this one, benefiting the n g o is instead of the weapons makers. but it's, it's, it's not a deal, as i said, the west last russia years ago. they're not aware of this,

but that will happen. and what they're trying to do here is they're following the playbook of a long dead polish rooster phobe, who imprinted his hatred of russia on run on u. s. foreign policy. and the, one of the clearest indictments of letting immigrants anywhere near delivers of power in washington as big since he claimed that russia cannot be an empire if it doesn't have ukraine, and therefore it follows that the u. s. the global hedge much must control ukraine to prevent it from happening. and that's exactly what the, what the washington political establishment has been obsessed with. with that written device. i mean, i'm glad you brought it up because embedded in that is the assumption that russia wants to be an empire. i mean, even the predicate, it caves in on it. so, because by projecting by, say, russia, bob, to be an empire. no, it's they maintain american hegemony. that's what they're saying in that has

nothing to do with russia. it's about maintaining american germany. go finish up before we go to the break. no. obviously i never calls back near fusion ski smart. i just, i just said he was obsessed with hating russia, and that's exactly what this was motivated by. well, absolutely. let's let me go to gauge here gauge. i want to talk about last minute here, and then i want to talk about the 2nd half of the program and nothing about ukraine without ukraine. does that mean to you? well, i mean, it's a, it's a suicidal. derek, if you ask me. i mean, i don't think the greenest went on their own at all. and if they're going to put it all in, i feel like the death tolls will go higher. that's why i think we should be pushing a piece right now to prevent that from happening and russia has been saying, hey, let's sit down and talk other than the regions that have been annexed. but the referendum we could sit down and talk and create peace, right? now, but washington won't let it happen. the ukrainians are already basically enslaved by d. c. let's be honest. here they're not a free democracy as they're claiming them. well, i mean, but i think they,

they don't mind this, this kind of a kept tibby and i will explain in the 2nd half of the program gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after lunch break, we'll continue our discussion on europe and russia divided. stay with our tea. ah ah, moon went out so thing wrong went on just a whole new world. yet to see how this thing becomes the advocate. an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds of horn, we choose to look for common ground. ah,

louise, hunters, russian state will never. i've started as i'm shown and ignore some scheme. destination goes, how sensitive it within the 55 would be the keys on i used to bargain speaking with weaver van in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machines, the state on russia for date and c, r t spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest and with

this welcome back to cross stack. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing europe and russia divided. ah okay, go back to our guests in london, adrian. it's very interesting that nothing about ukraine without ukraine. they say that about poland. i think you remember that. okay, so it's kind of recycled phrase here. and it's a meaningless phrase here because there is no leverage that the ukrainians have whatsoever the, the ukrainian military for all intensive purposes was destroyed during the summer. now it is a nato war against russia. so it's, it's very much a fig leaf here. and it's an excuse for washington and london, the most, russo phobic place on the planet not to sit down with the russians. because as we say already said in the program unprovoked in all that, you know, you can't sit down and negotiate with someone that provokes a war. of course,

the bush has already talked about the 20th century example here. so this is an intentional strategy. i can't see how it could possibly work to their advantage. oh, but let me remember it's the europeans who will suffer the most for it. while that is so magnanimous from your transatlantic friends in washington go ahead. in london, when i mean this is a fact the anglo sphere, i would say all the u. k. american block, or i would say the u. k. american establishment is using our ukraine and people as a counselor in order to achieve its geopolitical objectives and goals. ah, but i mean for, i can't go beyond the, the, the, the political, a risk between the west and, and, and russia. we have to bear in mind that this has a tremendous, i'm cultural consequences. i mean, i've spent last month in brussels and having a discussion with young policy makers. this has

a huge impact how the social engineering of future russo falls off, admitting ukrainian people who are still a believing in those lies that the russians are dependence. and it will have an impact, you know, well beyond this conflict if it, if the, if this ends. so i think of the social engineering, you know, it's, it's made by purpose because you, you will have on, on your board or whether it is in poland or other european countries. a huge influx of the ukrainian people who are living within the hour, animosity towards russia, so it will not end this year or next year. it will have, it will have an impact on our next generation to come, so that it will never be a peace in ukraine or in between ukraine or russia. i'm,

i'm not sure what we're supposed to. i q in order to heal this one. but at this moment, from what i've observed in europe, is that the, this has a tremendous psychological and cultural impact on people in europe and in the way a lot in boise. i mean obviously the ukranian people are the sacrificial lamb and all this. but i would say europe is also okay, because it's the, again, you know, as you've already said, you know, the europe is prosperity came from cheap russian energy. well, they don't want it. it, that's their choice. you know, it, you know, blame the russians. no, it's your sanctions that are doing and it's not what russians though, has done. it's the sanctions, the boyish and so on. the europe itself is a net loser and all of this. but i think that address is absolutely right. it create the, the, the problems that europe is going to experience in the, in the future is going to be blamed on russia. but it's actually policy makers in

washington. well, so there's, there's couple of things where here, 1st of all, it's uniquely evil that the global empire is basically doing everything it can to poison the well for generations while claiming it wants peace. what address just describe this literally poisoning the well making sure that, that this, this hatred of russia perseveres in ukrainians in europe for, for decades or centuries or even forever. secondly, it had him on would claim the right to rule on the basis that it's, we provide some kind of respect in order. neither of which is in evidence that the, the american empire is literally plunging europe into poverty and darkness. literally, for the sake of maintaining its primacy over the world, which is arguably yes, fading and trying to blame russia for it and the european politicians. if not, the populace actually agrees. i mean, you have the german foreign minister saying, i don't care what my german voters think, i promise to support ukraine and i will,

i will live up to that promise. so that's number 2. number 3. the whole, nothing about you create with ukraine is it's a, it's a phrase calculated to provoke thoughts about the munich agreement of $938.00 because in the minds of the washington establishment, every day is me unique. every enemy of hits. they're kind of stuck in this in perpetuity like a weird groundhog day. but the issue is that, i'm sorry, if you're paying for all of ukraine's bills, not just the military ones, but civilian ones. if you're literally propping up the regime, then you're responsible for them, not the other way round, and trying to say, oh, well, so lensky disagrees, is, is a way to duck responsibility. this is the way this is the ultimate device to project accountability away from people who actually have it. and i would argue that among those people is victorian newland who's in charge of you up at the state

department. and we all know what she thinks about you. thanks that at 20, intercepted full conversation, which i can't repeat in a family friendly channel. so we all know what it is. ok, look at it, let me go to you and break here. one of the interesting things is that this fanfare of no negotiate. so let's give it find a decrease. no negotiations. we put in. ok. i mean it, that's such a strategic error. and maybe it's, he just said naga for washington because then from the russian side then, well there's no one to call. there's no, there's no interlocutor, so they're going to continue. what they're going to do. and the ground is getting hard. i can tell you it's cold now, the 1st real cold day in moscow, and it's only going to get colder. and the russian military knows how to fight in the winter. i. history has shown that ok, nato well will find out, i suppose. okay. but you know, by saying no negotiations, well then rushes war aims will discontinue. i mean,

no one wants to talk about it. i mean, it is, it's full hardy, but this is what they want to do because they want a virtual signal. but again, how does that help ukrainians? how does it help you repeat and during the winter, go ahead, lucas doesn't at all. and i would already, this is, this is purposely engineered and you know, the argument is what we can't trust. and he's just not, he's going to go back and whatever. he says he's offering piece. it's nonsense. well, if that were the case, if you're granny or smart about it, they would sit down and have peace talks and then he would break them. but they know he wouldn't break them. so that's why they can't have the piece dogs. we have to keep pushing for this fight that they cannot possibly win, and all of europe is going to suffer for work. and here in america, i'm already suffering for our gas prices are ridiculous, running on a diesel. what do we have to do with this work? for special interests, obviously, and there you go. so d, c is pulling the strings again, ukraine is already gone. you know, they're not free at all. if you ask me there, i guess, proxy war slave snake for the u. s. nato and the you. and, you know, i don't, this is going to end, well, it all, in fact, us as the russians of the mobilized here,

comes the winter. now the gloves are off and after the terrorist attacks of the crimea bridge after the assassination of their do again, you know, how can the russians play, you know, nice anymore, they can't, and they have to do what's necessary to neutralize you crate. not destroy it. and kill everyone but to neutralize it, make sure it doesn't become, this stays this proxy. what a fortune has my colleagues have mentioned. they have already impulse, they've already basically condition to people to hate russians, even if this were to end tomorrow unfortunately. and that's how these people engineered these conflicts for decades and forever, essentially. and you have this quite against ation in london. you know, when you hear this, me, him all the time. you know, you can't make it a negotiations with the russians here all the time. okay. but you know, most people haven't heard about it in the west because media supply and, but the mince processing of who didn't for fill their commitments to the mince

process. it was the west. ok. i'm actually in fact if ukraine had fulfilled to minsk agreements, they would have been in net winner and all of this because they didn't do it. they're a net loser. go ahead in london. i absolutely agree with your pizza, but we also have to, ah, bear in mind of the very big, very beginning of this year. russia wanted a security guarantees from united states and from the west lodge. but it, this wasn't provided to russia, which means the, you know, this conflict was unavailable. you know, unavoidable from, from, from the western perspective. everything was a going into that direction to, to somehow a provoke russia onto, to react to, to, to, to, to, to meddling on, on, on the, on his borders. so this goes back to what i said be before the on or before the break that there with the russian government will neutralize you. it

doesn't matter because you will have a contingent of people, ukrainian people, whether it isn't poland, or united kingdom, who grew up with a tricity towards russia. so it is engine, it, whether it will be, you know, government in exile in london. it whether it will be a government in exile in poland, you will, has a ukrainian pro problem for the foreseeable future. so this, this doesn't look very well because if you, if you talk to anyone in western europe, the people are afraid of the fact that their foreign policy and national interest has been hijacked by the u. green goals. so you, you can't have your, your legitimate national interest. these are the russia as a german, as a french person, or as a citizen of a budget. because everything has been hijacked by the, by the ukraine course. and it has been imposed by the washington d. c. and, and, and, and geopolitical lose, like

a friedman all managing ski. so i, it is very frightening. it is very frightening because man, no country has, has its own legitimate inches at the moment. all these interests are not taking into consideration. and even when we see people who are protesting on the streets of, of western europe, they are being labeled by the mainstream price as a 5th column of, of the russian propaganda. so this is outrageous and, and this will koch recreate it wrist? a few trips between society and, and the under governments. yeah. well, you know, it will, i, i very much agree with you this generational thing is coming in because it's, it's social programming here. but at the end of the day, we can discuss it. but almost out of time here, russia is going to be just fine without europe. but europe is not going to be just fine without russia. and we'll get there. going to find that out the hard way because not just one hard winter may be far if hard winters ahead and who is going

to be pay, who's going to make money off it. their patron in the us, an oil companies or a gentleman that's all the time we have want to thank my guest and watch it in break and in london. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember, cross talk with ah ah, only one main thing is important for knox ism internationally speaking to that is that nations because allowed to do anything, all the mazda races, the reason us,

hey jim, it is so dangerous. is it the lie? the sovereignty of the country or is business and business is good and that is the reality of what we're facing, which is fashion a said un trucks on the fire in the democratic republic of congo, and make claims that peacekeepers vehicle is helping from supporting insurgents near the road one then border also this is the pit the very bottom rung of it thriving enlisted economy. john is that if filled with abandoned mind, kept flag on our t crew in south africa ventures into colonial era. all my currently used by local,