to you and no one knows how everything will turn out in the future. civilian casualties here in done that scans in the rest of the done at school republic continued to mount on a daily basis of the last 24 hours. at least 2 people have been killed. 2 elderly women, 2 people were injured. but as the day progresses, that number may still grow as ukrainian nationalists continue shelling residential areas of the nest people's republic from on cause for have archie dun asked. nora correspondent roman casa wrapping up this alice program here on art he international from moscow. so good to have your company. thank you for sharing a time with us here. who will be back soon with

ah ah, hello and welcome to cross back or all things considered on peter level for most prior to february 24th, ukraine was just another eastern european country since then. the conflict in

ukraine has created deep divisions all across europe and beyond russia in europe today virtually have no common ground. this may be the case for a very long time, becomes, ah, cross sucking europe and russia divided. i'm joined by my guess, the bush, a mileage in washington. he's a blogger and calmness in brick. we have lucas gauge. he is a u. s. m. c veteran, author and philosopher. and in london we cross ad real, cassandra, he is the founder of aka consulting and a foreign affairs analyst, or a gentleman crossing roles in effect. that means you can jump in in time you want, and i always appreciate the voice you. let me go to you 1st. um, we have the jury, the german president, our son meyer says at berlin and moscow are now opponents. he describes russia's a military operation in ukraine as a watershed. now that kind of got me thinking,

because i'm in the early 2, thousands when we, when the, the war in afghanistan started. there was a public opinion post when some university. and they asked the afghans, does 911 mean anything to you? the date, 911. and like 98 percent of the people have asked to get it that nope, doesn't mean much to me at all. the reason why i'm bringing this up is that stein meyer again, with this kind of neo colonial attitude, a, the world must accept the west's dates and what it can bitters to be. watersheds we have to, the whole world has to run on their calendar. because i mean, if you're looking at ukraine, i think a lot of people and ukraine, and particularly in russia, would say, i think we had to go back to the clinton administration with nato expansion here. why am i bringing this up? because that we have a parallel ways we have different narratives, and when one narrative does not accept it, there is another alternative narrative to understanding something. we have

a deadlock and that's what we have now with the west in russia. thoughts, my friend go. absolutely. i mean, i'm on the records that the actual watershed was in 1999 when nato decided to expand and bomb yugoslavia, thereby obliterating any pretence that it actually cared about international law. and that's literally the time where it last, russia, for all intents and purposes, i mean, this is, this is all documented it's, it's a wealth, well documented hypothesis. so what we're seeing today are the consequences of this, of these actions that there, this is not something that you know just happened yesterday. i know that a lot of people in the west including sy meyer have the memories of squirrels on amphetamines. but, you know, the world didn't start yesterday and choices have consequences. and i'm sorry, but as somebody who's from a country that got invaded by nazi germany in world war 2,

for germans to say anything about, you know, opponents and this, and then the other, especially after their own experience with russia over the past 2 centuries, is just too rich, i mean, you can, can you even make one of this stuff, you know, used to be that the germans had to go to stalingrad to freeze to death. and now they can just sit at home. and that's not because of russia, it's because they're all stupid policies. they built their entire economy on access to russian energy, and then they cut it off despite themselves. we'll look how well that's going for them. well and the boys they can stay with you, sir, showed sense. well, how i referred to him on this program when he was in moscow before the complex started, and they were talking about ethnic cleansing in the dunbar. he laughed again, a german laughing it, ethnic cleansing. it's something that it said it is an unbecoming of a german leader here. let me go to lucas in the same vein here. i look at, you know, responsible state craft in, in some articles in the american conservative. and they love to use this word,

unprovoked, unprovoked. but this goes back to when a boy was talking about it. you know, you don't have to go too far to see that this was intentionally provoked. lucas? yes. i mean these wars are engineered. if you ask me, that's my opinion on this whole thing. they know upwards, gonna respond in order pushes buttons and the western media start with. he invaded, that's where they start that. and the most people thing, oh my god, he invaded unprovoked. why did he do? this is a madman. he's going to take all of you crate is going to take all of europe. we've heard these narratives before. so most people have no idea that the truth is this is going on for a long time. as he mentioned earlier, and you know, the shelling and dumb bust at the cleansing of the reach, which is being denied by the german people there. and here we go, is repeating the same lice again. that's unprovoked when the reality, the miss agreements, the, the shelling and the people there, the ethnic cleansing, the, making it illegal to speak. russia. i mean, that's out of that,

not be ethnic cleansing, or there's, well is, are all facts, undisputed facts. so when the west is starting the narrative with the invaded for no reason of that he's a madman. they're lying to everyone. an unfortunate europeans are going to suffer this winter because of these lies that their leaders are telling them the same lies a sent me to iraq and other regions in the middle east as well. with all my fellow marines, i think a fight in afghanistan, or whatever the case them that same wise against the saw it is the same script, different actors, that's what we're seeing here. but andrea, if we, if we can say, would be an unprovoked element here. well, if you assume that something is unprovoked, then you cannot negotiate because you promote you, you did this intentionally, you woke up in the morning and suddenly you want to invade a country, hear it because of the narrative here. you can even begin to think about negotiations because your net it is predicated on something that is absolutely false. go ahead in london and whoa, i agree. i mean the, the purpose, the whole purpose of this, linguistic. i love this linguistic. um no, no,

i was a tends to to, to somehow condemn bratia and portray, i put in as a madman, serve the one purpose of not, you know, i'm coming to the table and having me full discussion with russia. because if we assume all, if we paint a full all, all over a hostile country, in our opinion as being, you know, a mad and irrational, there's no incentive to have any discussion. but what is lacking in this ball ukrainian, russian, this course is the entire conflict and ukraine is a small piece of a larger picture. it is not about the ukraine. we know that in 2014, this conflict has been frozen after now the annexation,

or all of crimea by russia. we know that this company was brewing for 8 years. but this a conflict is a part of a larger of a larger picture. as i've said, it is a. the picture is that the r u. s. for germany is fading of the of the power of united states is fading. and we know that the new actors and new a power centers are managing as president by the near putting right be sent during the by discussion club and, and ukraine. it's used as a tool to clinch the, the unit polo moment that is long gone. the same applies to taiwan. so at these flashing points in asia, which relates to taiwan and, and, and, and in eastern ukraine, or the flushing point, where the united states is trying to somehow provoke the major powers like russia and try enough to engage them in the continuous lea.

a fighting a proxy war with its allies in europe or in asia. and somehow by some time for the us policy makers to figure out how they can prolong the address read. don't, don't forget the arms makers. ok, that's a key element. and all of this here, one gripped, replaces another graph, gattis and to ukraine, here. and the boy should let me go back to you here. i mean, i'm very curious, you know, so is it worth losing russia to get ukraine and what ukraine are they getting? i mean, i find these, you know, these conferences about rebuilding ukraine, you know, 10 year plan or know about. they have no idea what they're talking about, what ukraine is going to be. do you think the 4 regions that have joined russia are going to suddenly return? i don't go ahead and washington. well there's, there's always these reconstruction conferences and you mentioned griffith earlier . this is one another for ro, griffin. i mean, i remember,

in bosnia they were doing reconstruction and you're talking about reconstruction a year before the war ended. how do you rebuild the things that can, that keep getting destroyed on a daily basis? that's insane. you can't plan for reconstruction until the war is over. and there's this, this particular war shows no sign of ending the least because western in trenches it could end tomorrow. if washington that's actually pulling the financial and political strings of kiev said ok enough, but it won't the kit. so what are we even talking about? no, we did the reconstruction conferences are just another money laundering scheme. this one benefiting the n g always instead of the weapons makers. but aids it's, it's not a deal. as i said, the west las russia years ago. they're not aware of this, but that's what happened. and what they're trying to do here is they're following the playbook of a long dead polish rooster phobe, who imprinted his hatred of russia on run on u. s. foreign policy. and the,

one of the clearest indictments of letting immigrants anywhere near delivers of power in washington as big since he claimed that russia cannot be an empire if it doesn't have ukraine, and therefore it follows that the u. s. the global hedge much must control ukraine to prevent it from happening. and that's exactly what the, what the washington political establishment has been obsessed with. with that written device. i mean, i'm glad you brought it up because embedded in that is the assumption that russia wants to be an empire. these it, i mean even the predicate, it caves in on it. so because by projecting by, say, rush bombs to be an empire. no, it's leaving, maintain american hegemony? that's what they're saying in that has nothing to do with russia. it's about maintaining american hegemony. go finish up before we go to the break. nobody. obviously i never calls big near fusion ski smart. i just, i just said he was obsessed with hating russia, and that's exactly what this was moderated by. well,

absolutely. let's let me go to gauge here gauge. i want to talk about last minute here, and then i want to talk about the 2nd half of the program. nothing about ukraine without ukraine. does that mean to you? well, i mean, it's a, it's a suicidal. they're good for you asked me. i don't think the greenest went on their own at all. and if they're going to put it all in, i feel like the, the death tolls will go higher. that's why i think we should be pushing a piece right now to prevent that from happening. and russia has been saying, hey, let's sit down and talk other than the regions that have been annexed, but the referendum we could sit down and talk and create peace right now, but washington won't let it happen. the ukrainians are already basically enslaved by dc. let's be honest here, they're not a free democracy as they're claiming that well, i mean, but i think they, they don't mind this, this kind of a kept heavy and i will explain in the 2nd half of the program gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that, scherbring will continue our discussion on europe and russia divided. stay with our tea. ah

ah, moon went out so sing wrong, went on just a whole new world yet to see how the scene becomes the advocate and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. a real live center. god is thrown in the old hon and the snow falls apart or sparkling. this comes with the last dance. have to

deal with idealists. we sprung from hours from the until that will do it. in bt dufrane, you get kicked away in the poly teachers, kills on the edge it's on the brown asia. so was to live and i'm done with this in because a little bulk them in the crucial chest middle school was all sweetness. wookey bone is not good p t d still not what you could eat with the leukemia. well, they need to, we'll lit up. she is, we can you video to fix that will be good to go with this but no gross issue. he missed the need to the middle, set them off and you can, you bus 15 the to the duties but also from his don't see these materials but in the stone toss. but even in the so great, you need to locate those little bit just to look now. it doesn't help with them. you have yet to me. she those patrons ah, yes, please. and you'll have to learn this mad yet. so to handle most of his emotional

specially to renew the lease is up to engine, you talk a little of doing piecemeal. mm ah, welcome back to cross stack where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you were discussing europe and russia divided with okay, it's go back to, i guess they're not in april a, it's very interesting that nothing about ukraine without ukraine based say that about poll one. i think you remember that. okay, so it's kind of recycled phrase here, and it's a meaningless phrase here because there is no leverage that the ukrainians have whatsoever. the, the ukrainian military for all intensive purposes was destroyed during the summer. now it is a nato war against russia. so it's, it's very much a fig leaf here, and it's an excuse for washington and london, the most,

russo phobic place on the planet not to sit down with the russians because as we've already said in the program unprovoked and all of that, you know, you can sit down and negotiate with someone that provokes a war, which of course, the bush has already talked about the 20th century example here. so this is an intentional strategy. i can see how it could possibly work to their advantage. oh, but let me remember it's the europeans who will suffer the most for it. while that is so magnanimous from europe. transatlantic friends in washington go ahead. in london when i mean this is a fact the anglo sphere i would say all the u. k. american block, or i would say the u. k. american establishment is using ukraine and people as a counselor in order to achieve its geopolitical objectives and goals. ah, but i mean for, i can't go beyond the, the, the,

the political, a risk between the west and, and, and russia. we have to bear in mind that this has a tremendous, i'm cultural consequences. i mean, i've spent last month in brussels and having a discussion with young policy makers. this has a huge impact how the social engineering of a future russo falls off, admitting ukrainian people who are still a believing in those lies that the russians are dependence. and it will have an impact, you know, well beyond this conflict if it, if the, if this ends. so i think of the social engineering, you know, it's, it's made by purpose because you, you will have on, on your board or whether it is in poland or other european countries. a huge influx of the ukrainian people who are living within the hour and the most city towards

russia. so it will not end this year or next year. it will have, it will to have an impact on the next generations to come, so that it will never be a peace in ukraine or in between ukraine or russia. i'm, i'm not sure what we're supposed to a q in order to heal this one. but at this moment, from what i've observed in europe, is that the, this has a tremendous psychological and cultural impact on people in europe and in the way a lot in boise. i mean obviously the ukranian people are the sacrificial lamb and all this. but i would say europe is also okay, because it's the, again, you know, as you've already said, you know, the europe is prosperity came from cheap russian energy. well, they don't want it, it, that's their choice. you know, it, you know, blame the russians. know it's your sanctions that are doing and it's not what russians though, has done. it's the sanctions,

the boyish and so on that europe itself is a net loser and all of this. but i think that address is absolutely right. it create the, the, the problems that europe is going to experience in the, in the future is going to be blamed on russia. but it's actually policy makers in washington. well, so there's, there's couple of things where here, 1st of all, it's uniquely evil that the global empire is basically doing everything it can to poison the well for generations while claiming it wants peace. what address just describe this literally poisoning the well making sure that, that this, this hatred of russia perseveres in ukrainians in europe for, for decades or centuries or even forever. secondly, had you, mon, would claim the right to rule on the basis that it's when we provide some kind of respect in order. neither of which is in evidence that the, the american empire is literally plunging europe into poverty and darkness.

literally, for the sake of maintaining its primacy over the world, which is arguably yes, fading and trying to blame russia for it and the european politicians. if not, the populace actually agrees. i mean, you have the german foreign minister saying, i don't care what my german voters think. i promised to support ukraine and i will, i will live up to that promise. so that's number 2. number 3. the whole, nothing about you can with ukraine is it's a, it's a phrase calculated to provoke thoughts about the munich agreement of $938.00 because in the minds of the washington establishment every day is me unique. every enemy hits right there, kind of stuck in this in perpetuity like a weird groundhog day. but the issue is that, i'm sorry, if you're paying for all of ukraine's bills, not just the military ones, but civilian ones. if you're literally propping up the regime, then you're responsible for them, not the other way round, and trying to say, oh,

well, so lensky disagrees, is, is way to doc responsibility. this is the way this is the ultimate device to project accountability away from people who actually have it. and i would argue that among those people is victorian newland who's in charge of but the state department and we all know what she thinks about the you thinks that at 20, intercepted full conversation, which i can't repeat in a family friendly channel that we all know what it is, ok, look at it, let me go to you and break here. what one of the interesting things is that this fanfare of no negotiate. so let's get it signed to decrease. no negotiations with potent ok. i mean it, that's such a strategic error. and maybe he's just a said naga for washington because then from the russian side then, well there's no one to call. there's no, there's no interlocutor, so they're going to continue. what they're going to do. and the ground is getting hard. i can tell you it's cold now, the 1st real cold day in moscow,

and it's only going to get colder. and the russian military knows how to fight in the winter. i. history has shown that ok, nato well will find out, i suppose. ok. but you know, by saying no negotiations, well then rushes war aims will just continue. i mean, no one wants to talk about it. i mean, it is, it's full hardy, but this is what they want to do because they want a virtual signal. but again, how does that help ukrainians? how does it help your opinions during the winter? go ahead. lucas doesn't at all. and i would already, this is, this is purposely engineered and you know, the argument is what we can't trust and he's just not, he's going to go back. and whenever he says he's offering peace, it's nonsense. well, if that were the case, if your cleanings are smart about it, they would sit down and have peace talks and then he would break them. but they know he wouldn't break them. so that's why they can't have the peace talks. we have to keep pushing for this fight that they cannot possibly win, and all of europe is going to suffer for work. and here in america already suffering, our gas prices are ridiculous, running on a diesel. what do we have to do with this work for special interests, obviously,

and there you go. so d, c, pulling the strings again, ukraine is already gone. you know, they're not free at all. if you ask me, there are a proxy war slave snake for the u. s. nato and the you and, you know, i don't, this is going to end. well, it all, in fact, just as the russians of the mobilize here comes the winter. now the gloves are off after the terrorist attacks of the crimea bridge after the assassination of they're doing, you know, how can the russians play, you know, nice anymore, they can't, and they have to do what's necessary to neutralize you crate. not destroy it and kill everyone but to neutralize it. make sure it doesn't become this state. this proxy. what a fortune has my colleagues have mentioned. they have already implement. they've already basically condition to people to hate russians, even if this were to end tomorrow. unfortunately, and that's how these people engineered these conflicts for decades and forever, essentially. and you have this quite against ation in london. you know, you know, you hear this, me, him all the time. you know, you can't make it

a negotiations with the russians here. all the time. okay. but you know, most people haven't heard about it in the west because media supply and but the mince process. so you know, who didn't go fill their commitments to the mince process. it was the west. ok. i'm actually in fact if ukraine had fulfilled to minsk agreements, they would have been a net winner in all of this because they didn't do it. they're a net loser. go ahead in london. i absolutely agree with your pizza, but we also have to, ah, bear in mind of the very big, very beginning of this year. russia wanted a security guarantees from united states and from the west lodge. but it, this wasn't provided to russia, which means the, you know, this conflict was unavailable. you know, unavoidable from, from, from the western perspective. everything was a going into that direction to, to somehow a provoke russia onto, to react to, to, to, to,

to de meddling on, on, on the, on his borders. so this goes back to what i said be before the, on the before the break that the, with the russian government will neutralize you. it doesn't matter because you will have a contingent of people, graham, people, whether it isn't poland, or united kingdom, who grew up with a tricity towards russia. so it is engine, it, whether it will be, you know, government in exile in london. it whether it will be a government in exile in poland, you will, has a ukrainian pro problem for the foreseeable future. so this, this doesn't look very well because if you, if you talk to anyone in western europe, the people are afraid of the fact that their foreign policy and national interest has been hijacked by the u. green goals. so you, you can't have your, your legitimate national interest. these are the russia as a german, as

a french person, all as a citizen of a budget. because everything has been hijacked by the, by the ukraine course. and it has been imposed by the washington d. c. and, and, and, and geopolitical lose like a friedman all managing ski. so i, it is very frightening. it is very frightening because man, no country has, has its own legitimate inches at the moment. all these interests are not taking into consideration. and even when we see people who are protesting on the streets of, of western europe, they are being labeled by the mainstream price as a 5th column of, of the russian propaganda. so this is outrageous and, and this will cook, recreate, wrist, a few trips between society and the under governments. yeah. well, you know, it will, i, i very much agree with you this generational thing this coming in because it's,

it's social programming here. but at the end of the day, we can discuss it be almost out of time here. russia is going to be just fine without europe, but europe is not going to be just fine without russia. and we'll get there. going to find that out the hard way because not just one hard winter, maybe fall. i have hard winters ahead and who is going to be pay who is going to make money off it. their patron in the us, an oil companies are a gentleman that's all the time we have want to thank my guest in washington, brick and in london. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember, cross talk with ah, who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing. i figure

which of literally the list of course sure. as we speak on the bill in your senior, mostly mine or will share them, we're banding all in ports of russian oil and gas news i suffering the piper happening. i know they said she with regard to joe, by imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. you. so there's your boomerang self. now when i was showing wrong, i just don't a shape out. the thing becomes the advocate and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart,

we choose to look for common ground. ah, ah, your, your, your, your ah ah, real sensor water. use that on september 2022 and now go down. the ukrainian military shells the city ceaselessly targeting the zappa erosion, nuclear power.