let's see, it consistent is whatever washington says go. now you can see this most blatantly recently with the situation regarding serbia, serbia maintains good relations with russia. and you have a situation where in the aftermath of serbia, assigning a bilateral cooperation agreement with russia, we have you officials lashing out at serbia, voicing their outrage. and they seem to of almost forgotten the vicious bombing campaign that washington waged against serbia during the 1990 s. and they seem to just not approve. or the fact that serbia might want to have a good relationship with a major power like russia, the need for a decision is coming to a hayden view. geopolitical developments. the relationship was so be as complex. there is light as well as shadows. so be as relations with russia currently, part of the shadows. if alexander virginia takes a path to europe, he will have support from the you as a whole and from the german government, should he choose the other path, it will be in soothing consequences. this is how western leaders expect countries

to operate with no national interest of their own simply our way or the highway. and it's important to know that we're seeing lighten admission here. that western support for the key of government is not about charity. it's not about the goodness of their hearts, depending democracy, all the rhetoric that we're hearing. in reality, they are fighting to preserve a global set up where western countries remain the center of the global economy and they remain the center of power in the world. meanwhile, we're seeing rising protests in europe against the economic result of the sanctions on russia and public opinion polls in the united states, kill that support biden's ukraine policies sinking lower and lower each day by that off of the show up. next is pretty laval on call. so i'll be barnes with willing to national news of the top with

oh wrong what i just don't know. i mean, you won't have to shape out this thing because the attitude and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. ah

ah, [000:00:00;00] with hello and welcome to cross back where all things are considered i'm peter level, for most prior to february 24th ukraine was just another eastern european country since then. the conflict in ukraine has created deep divisions all across europe and beyond russia in europe today virtually have no common ground. this may be the

case for a very long time, becomes, ah, cross stocking europe and russia divided. i'm joined by my guess the bush of mileage in washington. he's a blogger and calmness in brick. we have lucas gauge. he is a u. s. m. c veteran, author and philosopher. and in london we crossed ad real console into he is the founder of aka consulting and a foreign affairs analysts, or a gentleman crossing roles in effect. that means you can jump in in time you want, and i always appreciate the boy. sure, let me go to you 1st. we have the jury, the german president stein meyer, says berlin and moscow are now opponents. he describes rushes, a military operation in ukraine as a watershed. now that kind of got me thinking because in the early, 2, thousands when we, when the war in afghanistan started, there was a public opinion polls when some university and they asked afghans, does 911 mean anything to you, the date,

911. and like 98 percent of the people who get it that nope, doesn't mean much to me at all. the reason i'm bringing this up is that stein meyer again, with this kind of neo colonial attitude, the world must accept the west's dates and what it considers to be. watersheds we have the whole world has to run on their calendar. because i mean, if you're looking at ukraine, i think a lot of people and ukraine, and particularly in russia, would say, i think we had to go back to the clinton administration with nato expansion here. why am i bringing this? because that we have a parallel ways we have different narratives, and when one narrative does not accept it, there is another alternative narrative to understanding something. we have a deadlock and that's what we have now with the west in russia. thoughts, my friend go. absolutely. i mean, i'm on the records that the actual watershed was in 1999 when nato decided to expand and bomb yugoslavia,

thereby obliterating any pretence that actually cared about international law. and that's literally the time where it last, russia, for all intents and purposes, i mean, this is, this is all documented it's, it's a wealth, well documented hypothesis. so what we're seeing today are the consequences of this, of these actions that there, this is not something that's you know, just happened yesterday. i know that a lot of people in the west including sy meyer have the memories of squirrels of on amphetamines. but, you know, the world didn't start yesterday and, you know, choices have consequences and i'm sorry, but as somebody who's from a country that got invaded by nazi germany in world or 2 for germans to say anything about, you know, opponents and this, and that, and the other, especially after their own experience with russia over the past 2 centuries is just too rich. i mean, you, how can you even make one of this stuff? you know,

used to be that the germans had to go to stalingrad to freeze to death and now they can just sit at home. and that's not because of russia, it's because they're all stupid policies. they built their entire economy and access to russian energy. and then they cut it off despite themselves. we'll look how well that's going for them. well, and the boy should make him stay with you. sergeant schultz. that's how i referred to him on this program. when he was in moscow before the complex started and they were talking about ethnic cleansing in the dumbass, he laughed again. german laughing, it, ethnic cleansing is something that it should. it's just an becoming of a german leader here. let me go to lucas in the same vein here. we, i look at, you know, responsible state craft in some articles in the american conservative. and they love the, is this word unprovoked unprovoked. but this goes back to when a boy she was talking about it. you know, you don't have to go too far to see that this was intentionally provoked. lucas?

yes. i mean these wars are engineering. if you ask me, that's my opinion on this whole thing. they know i'll put in is gonna respond. they know what a pushes buttons and the western media start with. he invaded, that's what they start. that's the most people thing. oh my god, he invaded unprovoked. why did he do? this is a madman. he's going to take all of ukraine is going to take all of europe. we've heard these narratives before. so most people have no idea that the truth is this is going on for a long time. as he mentioned earlier. and you know, the shelling and dom boss to ethnic cleansing in the region which is being denied by the german people there. and here we go, is repeating the same lice again. that is on provoke when the reality, the mis agreements, the showing in the people there that the cleansing, the making it illegal to russia. i mean, that's how can i not be ethnic cleansing right there as well is, are all facts undisputed facts. so when the west is starting the narrative with, he invaded for no reason that he's a madman. they're lying to everyone and our fortune. europeans are going to suffer

this winter because of these lives that their leaders are telling them the same wise has sent me to iraq and other regions in the middle east as well. with all my fellow marines, i think a fight in afghanistan, or whatever the case them that same wise against the saw is the same script, different actors, that's what we're seeing here and jail if we, if we can say, would be an provoked element here. well, if you assume that something is unprovoked, then you cannot negotiate because you promote you, you did this intentionally, you woke up in the morning and suddenly you want to invade a country, hear it because of the narrative here. you can even begin to think about negotiations because your narrative is predicated on something that is absolutely false. go ahead in london on, whoa, i agree, i mean the, the purpose, the whole purpose of this, linguistic, i love this. linguistic a, a tends to, to somehow condemn bratia and portray, i put in as a madman,

serve the one purpose of not, you know, i'm coming to the table and having me full discussion with russia. because if we assume all, if we paint a full, all, all. busy own or a hostile country, in our opinion as being, you know, a mad and irrational. there's no incentive to have any discussion, but what is lacking in this role, ukrainian, russian, this course is the entire conflict and ukraine is a small piece of a larger picture. it is not about the ukraine. we know that in 2014, this conflict has been frozen after now the an station or all of crimea by russia. we know that this conference was brewing for 8 years, but this a conflict is a part of a larger of a larger picture. as i've said, it is a,

the picture is the u. s. for germany is fading. the power of united states is fading, and we know that the new actors and the new a power centers are managing us prisoner what we're putting right. the said during the discussion club. and ukraine is used as a tool to clench the, the union polo moment that is long gone. the same applies to taiwan. so these flashing points in asia, which relates to taiwan and, and, and, and in eastern europe, ukraine. all the flushing points where united states is trying to somehow provoke the major powers like russia and china to engage them in the continuous lee of fighting a proxy will with allies in europe or in asia. and somehow,

by some time for the u. s. policy makers to figure out how they can prolong the a. don't forget the arms makers. ok. that that's a key element and all of this here one, griff replaces another graft afghanistan to ukraine, here. and the boy should let me go back to you here. i mean, i'm very curious, you know, so is it worth losing russia to get ukraine and what ukraine are they getting? i mean, i find these, you know, these conferences about rebuilding ukraine, you know, 10 year plan and all that. they have no idea what they're talking about, what you crane is going to be, you think the 4 regions that have joined russia going to suddenly return. i don't go ahead in washington. well there's, there's always reconstruction conferences and you mentioned grifter earlier. this is one of the other for rift. i mean, i remember, in bosnia they were doing reconstruction and a year you know, talking about reconstruction a year before the war ended. how do you rebuild the things that can, that keep getting destroyed on a daily basis?

that's insane. you can't plan for reconstruction until the war is over. and there's this, this particular war shows no sign of ending the least because western trenches. it could end to morrow. if washington, that's actually pulling the financial and political strings of kiev said ok enough, but it won't the kit. so what are we even talking about? no, we did the reconstruction conferences there just another money laundering scheme. this one, benefiting the n g o is instead of the weapons makers. but it's, it's, it's not the, as i said, the west las russia years ago. they're not aware of this, but that's what happened. and what they're trying to do here is they're following the playbook of a long dead polish rooster phobe, who imprinted his hatred of russia on right on u. s. foreign policy. and the, one of the clearest indictments of letting immigrants anywhere near delivers of power in washington as big the fusion sky claimed that russia cannot be an empire if it doesn't have ukraine. and therefore it follows that the u. s. the global

hedge money must control ukraine to prevent it from happening. and that's exactly what the, what the washington political establishment has been obsessed with. with that written device. i mean, i'm glad you brought it up because imbedded in that is the assumption that russia wants to be an empire. i mean, even the predicate it caves in on it. so, because by projecting by, say, russia bog, to be an empire. no, it's the we maintain american hegemony. that's what they're saying in that has nothing to do with russia. it's about maintaining american germany. go finish up before we go to the break. no. obviously i never calls back near fusion sky smart. i just, i just said he was obsessed with hating russia, and that's exactly what this was motivated by. well, absolutely. let's let me go to gauge here gauge. i want to talk about last minute here, and then i want to talk about the 2nd half of the program and nothing about ukraine without ukraine. does that mean to you? well, i mean, it's a, it's

a suicidal. they're good for you asked me. i don't think the greenest went on their own at all. and if they're going to put it all in, i feel like the, the death tolls will go higher. that's why i think we should be pushing for peace right now. to prevent that from happening and russia has been saying, hey, let's sit down and talk other than the regions that have been annexed. but the referendum we could sit down and talk and create peace right now, but washington won't let it happen. the ukrainians are already basically enslaved by dc. let's be honest here. they're not a free democracy as they're claiming that well, i mean, but i think they, they don't mind this for this kind of captivity. and i will explain in the 2nd half of the problem gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break after lunch break. we'll continue our discussion on europe and russia, divide and stay with

ah ah, with a a ah, [000:00:00;00]

a the welcome to cross back or all things are considered out. and peter, it'll remind you were discussing europe and russia divided in the okay, go back to, i guess they're not in a row. it's very interesting that nothing about ukraine without ukraine space to say that about poland. i think you remember that. ok, so it's kind of recycled phrase here, and it's a meaningless phrase here because there is no leverage that the ukrainians have whatsoever. the ukrainian military for all intensive purposes was destroyed during the summer. now it is a nato war against russia. so it's, it's very much a fig leaf here, and it's an excuse for washington and london, the most, russo phobic place on the planet not to sit down with the russians. because as we've already said in the program unprovoked, in all of that, you know,

you can sit down and negotiate with someone that provokes a war, which of course, in the bush has already talked about the 20th century example here. so this is an intentional strategy. i can see how it could possibly work to their advantage. oh, but let me remember it's the europeans who will suffer the most for it. while that is so magnanimous from europe, transatlantic friends in washington go ahead. in london, when i mean this is a fact the anglo sphere, i would say all the u. k. american block, or i would say the u. k. american establishment is using our ukraine and people as a counselor in order to achieve its geopolitical objectives and goals. ah, but i mean for, i can't go beyond the, the, the, the political, a risk between the west and, and, and russia. we have to bear in mind that this has a tremendous,

i'm cultural consequences. i mean, i've spent last month in brussels and having a discussion with young policy makers. this has a huge impact how the social engineering of a future russo falls off, admitting ukrainian people who are still a believing in those lies that the russians are dependence. and it will have an impact, you know, well beyond this conflict if it, if the, if this ends. so i think that the social engineering, you know, it's, it's made by purpose because you, you will have on, on your board whether it is in poland or other european countries, a huge influx of the ukrainian people who are living within the hour, animosity towards russia. so it will not end this year or next year. it will have, it will have an impact on our next generation to come, so that it will never be

a peace in ukraine or in between ukraine or russia. i'm, i'm not sure what we're supposed to a q in order to heal this one. but at this moment, from what i've observed in europe, is that the, this has a tremendous psychological and cultural impact on people in europe and in the way a lot in boise. i mean obviously the ukranian people are the sacrificial lamb and all this. but i would say europe is also okay, because it's the, again, you know, as you've already said, you know, the europe is prosperity came from cheap russian energy. well, they don't want it. they, that's their choice. it blame the russians. no, it's your sanctions that are doing and it's not what russians though, has done. it's the sanctions, the boyish and so on. the europe itself is a net loser and all of this. but i think that address is absolutely right to create the, the, the problems that europe is going to experience in the,

in the future is going to be blamed on russia. but it's actually policy makers in washington. well, so there's, there's couple of things where here, 1st of all, it's uniquely evil that the global empire is basically doing everything it can to poison the well for generations while claiming it wants peace. what address just described is literally poisoning the well making sure that, that this, this hatred of russia perseveres in ukrainians in europe for, for decades or centuries or even forever. secondly, had him on would claim the right to rule on the basis that it's when we provide some kind of prosperity or order. neither of which isn't evidence that the, the american empire is literally plunging europe into poverty and darkness. literally, for the sake of maintaining its primacy over the world, which is arguably yes, fading and trying to blame russia for it and the european politicians. if not,

the populace actually agrees. i mean, you have the german foreign minister saying, i don't care what my german voters think, i promise to support ukraine and i will, i will live up to that promise. so that's number 2. number 3. the whole, nothing about you create with ukraine is it's a, it's a phrase calculated to provoke thoughts about the munich agreement of $938.00 because in the minds of the washington establishment, every day is me unique. every enemy of hits. they're kind of stuck in this in perpetuity like a weird groundhog day. but the issue is that, i'm sorry, if you're paying for all of ukraine's bills, not just the military ones, but civilian ones. if you're literally propping up the regime, then you're responsible for them, not the other way round, and trying to say, oh, well, so lensky disagrees, is, is a way to doc responsibility. this is the way this is the ultimate device to project

accountability away from people who actually have it. and i would argue that among those people as victorian newland who's in charge of you up at the state department . and we all know what she thinks about the you. thanks that at 20, intercepted full conversation, which i can't repeat in a family friendly channel. so we all know what it is. ok, look at it, let me go to you and break here. one of the interesting things is that this fanfare of no negotiate. so let's give it find a decree. no negotiations we put in. ok. i mean it, that's such a strategic error. and maybe it's, he's just a said naga for washington because then from the russian side then, well there's no one to call. there's no, there's no interlocutor. so they're going to continue. what they're going to do. and the ground is getting hard. i can tell you it's cold now 1st, real cold day in moscow, and it's only going to get colder. and the russian military knows how to fight in the winter. i, history has shown that ok, nato will well will find out, i suppose. okay. but you know, by saying no negotiations,

well then rushes war aims will discontinue. i mean, no one wants to talk about it. i mean, it is, it's full hardy, but this is what they want to do because they want a virtual signal. but again, how does that help your gradients? how does it help you repeat and during the winter, go ahead, lucas does that all they would already. this is, this is purposely engineered and you know, the argument is what we can't trust and he's just not, he's going to go back and whatever he says he's offering piece. it's nonsense. well, if that were the case, if your cranium or smart about it, they would sit down in that p stocks and then he would break them. but they know he wouldn't break them. so that's why they can't have the p stocks and we have to keep pushing for this, you know, fight that they cannot possibly win. and all of europe is going to suffer for work . and here in america already suffering, our gas prices are ridiculous. running on a diesel, what do we have to do with this war for special interests, obviously, and there you go. so d, c is pulling the strings again. ukraine is already gone. you know, they're not free at all. if you ask me, there are a proxy war slave snake for the u. s. nato and the you and, you know, i don't,

this is going to end. well, it all, in fact, as the russians of the mobilize here comes the winter. now the gloves are off and after the terrorist attacks of the crimea branch after the assassination of their due. again, you know, how can the russians play, you know, nice anymore, they can't, and they have to do what's necessary to neutralize you crate. not destroy it. and kill everyone but to neutralize it, make sure it doesn't become, this stays this proxy. what a fortune has my colleagues have mentioned. they have already implement. they've already basically condition to people to hate russians, even if this were to end tomorrow unfortunately. and that's how these people engineered these conflicts for decades and forever, essentially. and you have this fight against the nation in london. you know, you know, you hear this, me, him all the time. you know, you can't make it negotiations with the russians here all the time. okay, but you know, most people haven't heard about it in the west because media supply and,

but the mince processing of who didn't for fill their commitments to the mince process. it was the west. ok. i'm actually in fact if ukraine had fulfilled to minsk agreements, they would have been in net winner and all of this because they didn't do it. they're a net loser. go ahead in london. i absolutely agree with your pizza, but we also have to, ah, bear in mind of the very big, very beginning of this year. russia wanted a security guarantees from united states and from the west of large. but it, this wasn't provided to russia, which means the, you know, this conflict was unavailable. you know, unavoidable. from, from, from the western perspective. everything was been a going into that direction to, to somehow a provoke russia onto, to react to, to, to, to, to, to meddling on, on, on, on his borders. so this goes back to what i said before the on or before the break,

that the, with the russian government will neutralize you. it doesn't matter because you will have a contingent of people, ukrainian people, whether it isn't poland, or united kingdom, who grew up with a tricity towards russia. so it is in it whether it will be, you know, government in exile in london. it whether it will be a government in exile in poland, you will, has a ukrainian pro problem for the foreseeable future. so this, this doesn't look very well because if you, if you talk to anyone in western europe, the people are afraid of the fact that their foreign policy and national interest has been hijacked by the u. green goals. so you, you can't have your, your legitimate national interest. these are the russia as a german, as a french person, or as a citizen of a budget. because everything has been hijacked by the, by the ukraine course. and it has been imposed by the washington d. c. and, and,

and, and geopolitical lose, like a friedman all managing ski. so i, it is very frightening. it is very frightening because man, no country has, has its own legitimate interest at the moment. all these interests are not taking into consideration. and even when we see people who are protesting on the streets of, of western europe, they are being labeled by the mainstream price as a 5th column of the russian propaganda. so this is outrageous and, and this will cook, recreate it, wrist, a few trips between society and governance. yeah. well, you know, it will, i, i very much agree with you this generational thing this coming in because it's, it's social programming here. but at the end of the day, we can discuss it be almost out of time here. russia is going to be just fine without euro, but europe is not going to be just fine without russia. and we'll get there. going

to find that out the hard way because not just one hard winter may be fine if hard winters ahead and who is going to be pay, who's going to make money off it. their patron in the us and oil companies are a gentleman. that's all the time we have. want to thank my guess and watch it in break and in london. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time remember crossed up with ah,

ah ah mm. in. ah, ah, the here we go. and, and the break coil t grey region, find me region for to and the bloody to get conflict that has resulted in a humanitarian disaster. with india says they have no moral concerns about buying oil from russia. because mostly because of the south asian countries