citrus said that sooner or later there will be war and it will be about you great. because there are many other cultural historic elements, but the main reason was so push the security what the situation or has been become becoming intolerable for us. now can i ask you specifically about the language? because the just the other day we had a few cranes at security council. alexey denila, a person with russia sounding family, suggested getting rid of the russian language completely. and while he did that in a very derogatory term, he compared fashion speakers to frogs. what i want to ask is not the moral assessment, but rather than the sort of analytical assessment of what sort of consequences this math, psychological experiment of trying to raise the mother tongue from a substantial part of the population with india. well, most, most probably,

there will be no, you crate in the end, or very few brain in then you to the pulses of their present cranium government. no. as to attempt to raise russia from russia or parson, who should oh, it was very clear from the beginning that the pre akiva elite elite was afraid of russian ladies as a more competitive. and this was the were and heard from english as a more competitive. and so they were making their policies are building their feet on the anti russian platform. there was only one of the reasons of this conflict and the weakness of, of the, to leap. but it was a reason, but focusing on the language as this certified battle ground, or even back in 2014,

i think many of the van or it was a capital is there. this language bill was one of the capitalist for russia's actions. i'm a big fan of ludovic vision stein. it says famous selling mystic scholar, and there are many, many, a studies that confirmed his famous statement that the limits of my language are the limits of my world. that language indeed defines how you see the world in this sense, doesn't it make it a military and strategic meaning to try to erase somebody else's language law in a, in a way that is happening at the local elite or some of the leads are changing the course of the countries are also oh, using of the language question, the same as a push to the left rear estonia, and that has been a bit oh, the 20 that had been her happening go through the history. math for sir language is

one of their defining features of the nation. if mother finding her. so when you want to build in your nation, you have to build that around learn language. if the language belongs to maturity, i always share my lives elsewhere. it becomes a problem. i wonder if you see any and linkages between this efforts to our suppressed the russian culture and that the, the fear of the russian influence if we take that one can influence other nations through their language through their culture. then indeed, the russian culture becomes a very potent, our weapon. no, of course, i mean a strong culture is a potent weapon, but i would blew up a nice culture for it is a one of the strongest of instruments of influence for there is no question about that. so the, so i fully understand,

i mean those people though i do not share the policies who want to get rid of richard culture. now, in one of the articles, he suggested that due to the composition at camellia ethnic composition of ukraine's population, it state what can only be shaped and midwife through a very deliberate ante, russian stance. now i understand how it could be one of the political technologies, but why do you think it's the only way available for explain why? because not only because of the language, because your trade has a very weak historic nation to they don't want to denigrate the crater. there hasn't been great for her 9th century. so age and they have their, they, it has been a land which has been run over by different tribes countries. so the roots of ukrainian feet are 2 weeks. and so the have to, to,

they have to dig these rules out to ship. but any our choice app has its costs and consequences. people who try to think about the ukranian political future. surely they could have understood that there in our . 3 country like russia would not be able to take that indefinitely, or they think they didn't do that. he was in that in think a in that way and that away at the beginning, russia was too weak. arusha was frank to integrate into the west. so it was not a problem for much political consciousness. the people like myself and very, very few outside of my kind of country, even verity in my country weren't understood that,

but we were ministry. i remember that in their ninety's, and i was heading, organizing them all russian, ukrainian meetings and commissions because nobody was interested was it because the russians too, were taking a crane for granted that it was, they were taking a credit for granted. and also one original company at no cost more than g d, p. o v. great, they were, we were to me down mistakes. we often accused her. and you are yourself often accused the west of an arrogance and ignorance. do you think russia is se guiltier of the same thing? absolutely. no, we were ignorant with it, wanting to know what was happening, area where we didn't care. and though we pay, we paid the price. it does not marry original either ukrainian,

the behavior of ukrainian elites which are ost, which up simply the nation and natural from my point of view, there are 1st they were building white a territory and now they, they planned to pledge that into woochie is absolutely the oldest, inevitable now, but we will, we're also guilty. now, sooner later, this military operation in the ukraine will. and, and i don't think at this point at least there is any intention in the kremlin team to great western ukraine into russia's proper. and will that territory have any other options for sort of sustaining itself politically other than extreme was the phobia. and if not, how do you think the strategy i play? i did degeneracy to say a, it looks at the juncture. i mean, all options are open and i think that there could be several,

the crates. what do you mean by several, your cranes over the city. this is a widely debate debated the puts of of freight belongs to hungary owes to hungary bus to poland, romanian want the apiece to. but again, the question is, what, what will come out of this state as it is because it for the state collapses, which as opposed to the possibility, then i mean, the territory will be totally taken by a smart do i understand you correctly than in strategic terms? russia would be more or less ok with parts of your brain going, let's say to poland, which is just as it was, the phobic a some of the ukrainian leads. but the thing like that kind of a point to view the father a border with,

from russia, the better if i may press that for one more question, do you think? what do you think is the best case scenario for ukraine at this point of time? because, you know, we all have relatives there and we all have emotional connections to that country. if you could have your wish, what do you think is the best case scenario at this point of time? could be too late and sign it with the teacher friendship. oh, with russia open borders, et cetera. so, but that's a bus and nothing short of that will preserve the ukrainian sovereignty in the us. if i were god. what the realistic scenario? there is a scenario. several, several territories and a very long war, which is probably the ok and then you know, dangers and of escalating, horizontal and vertical. they all the more that although we're talking about

a craig mostly and oh yeah. we are like the proverbial a on that who flew as am i looking for keys under the lamps, not where he could have lost it. a crane is a plot fail, warren traded a part of a huge, massive or distribution of world power. or of course of multiple layers to trace is everywhere. i mean, we have other simone fantasy. a crisis with food crisis energy crisis. right? of middle class, some ways of migration. i mean, i could go on a different and it is clear that we are living through a period of desperate, desperate, and deep change. what will come out in 20 or 30 years?

i don't know, but we should think in these terms, of course, hopefully that will be something up to 20 or 30 years, and that is they, we're avoid a catastrophic them when you grow. well, when you don't have such a long horizon in certain ways, you're an optimist before and you get what happens. let's take a very short break, but we will come to this fascinating discussion. in a short while state you ah ah, i got to do is identify the threads that we have a tree that even foundation let it be an arms race is offensive, very dramatic development. i am going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will

be successful. very katy killed time. time to sit down and talk ah, a medial noise sponge with what you're seeing. agility project. jewelry with motions toward nerd. that other was the money done with?

i did a woman. ah mm . mm. welcome back to wells far as with said gay kind of got us academic supervisor at the school or for the canal mix and international relations at the higher school of economics in moscow. mrc are gonna, before they break you, i suggested that the conflict is much further than russia, ukraine. it's a full blown confrontation between russia and the west. and i've seen you right before that because it's such a global conflict. russia's actions should also be targeted at the west, so that it loses the appetite for picking on russia further. what exactly do you

have in mind? what actions could moscow take tier limit they appetites of western relates. first i re emphasize it's not the to in, it's a weighted than brush in the west anomaly, the western direct. and then everything is changing the west or is shrinking. i mean, the rest, which i would prefer to go to cold, not a not, not a lot more west, but the global majority of movies are growing in its power. but we have everything that is changing. and one of the elements of this picture is the desperate, the attack now of the west or counter attack to stop and the duration of the, of their positions. they decided to concentrate on russia

in their real amy's, of course, saving their 500 years of their domination. and a mid intermediate aim is undermined china now. but to have de my chain a that they have to 1st to take out russia. it's impossible, most probably, so that aim would not be reached, but that is at global. oh, it but not a global war in terms of military. what a global war in terms of political, economic, psychological, moral values, everything. but he also said that despite its global implications, this war could be thought of as russia's 4th great war. starting with that war against napoleon, the civil war of the beginning of the 20th century and the 2nd world war and this current crisis. if we look at the death to law of the of this previous conflicts day, it could be counted in tens of thousands enough and millions. do you think in this

particular case we can do it? i hope that, oh, not reach the levels of push of their great patriotic war or of their 2nd that you have to quote, chose, by the way wrongly cold here, russian jew, men or even through us to war. but after all, i been a war against napoleon, which was the 1st, but were to cool. though i live, a lot of people died, but the country didn't have an interview at one on one of the vault guests. and we are recording this interview. are they sidelines of develop that form? and she said, an interesting thing. she said like the world is used to russia, paying a disproportionate prize for global peace. and there is a recognition among many of my eastern guests that russia is doing something for itself. but it's also providing common benefit, but i'm not, many of those countries are ready to stand up for those benefits directly. do you

think rush is getting enough support from the, from the countries that are benefiting on taishan? well we're no, we're not getting enough supporter, but we're and we're not counting on the support of successful force and support of china and 2 or 3 other nations and also on support of the world community. now, it is much freer because of her shirt. so huge 1st and then after a short period of soviet union collapse or russia undermined the foundation of the western hagaman, which was military's superiority, which it accomplish somewhere 500 years ago. and which was, which was the foundation of the western power. so i, in a way we treat the will already, and we are free in the world, but the people either do not understand that or in the understand the

it's a public good for them. why should they pay? oh, but there is an a paradox there because on the one hand i you know, nasha is there at e said that russia fried the one from the western military had germany. but on the other hand, on the other hand, some of the western leads there. i mean, they lost the air, the remnants of fear, because even though russia has a lot of might and there's very a lot of difficulties in just putting in and to this constant prod, prodding from the, from the west. how do you think fear or the effectiveness of the nuclear deter and could be brought back into world politics? her that her one of the hardest question i one could ask her to do with himself or to herself. we actually know,

but people like myself counted that a foot war of such proportions would start somewhere. our lesson counterpart shoot in stop because we are far beyond their career or had been career crisis. i mean, there are what is happening has been a thinkable in the nuclear age or later is directly supporting arming a country which is fighting on the borders of their 1st or 2nd. nuclear should propose that that isn't thinkable. the people last, ah, how safe here you're right away, i called and so my colleagues called the strategic perez's ah, how to do with it. i don't look at that phrase strategic carries. it isn't hair. by that i assume you mean dad than the west and the world, perhaps

a more generally have come to take peace for granted. and i think some of that, that relates to russia's own population because in order to, in a be successful in this partition, you not only need successful military strategies, strategic thinking in modern weapons. but you need to see war as perhaps the worse, but legitimate means of defending your country's national interest. looking at how many people have left russia since the beginning of this operation, and how many resent it on moral grounds, do you think the kremlin has enough support domestically to withstand it? no. as far as i know, the support is overwhelming. in the last majority of the russian populations for the war. but the problem is, or is there a way to answer your question in a bit different way. i would say that this particular period,

military operation had several and aims. the one is clear, defendant and on bus. the 2nd is clear, stopped maita expansion. the 3rd is her dad dentist in the sci fi ukraine, which is vague, but then there of it the but one of the names of the war was, of course, to mobilize russians and to clean russian society from protestant element our mind from per preston or elements and pro western a culture and also competitor thinking. and when that is happening, whether it is a good or bad, we know it will come out of this process by thur, we are really all for one period in our lives. very strange period in the election

in light of command thought that peace is eternal, peace is normally is very rare specimen or friends. but who really so is a nuclear winter, italy who avoid that, but the waters of the wars will come back and that is unfortunately very ugly in her mouth if human culture for one and for of geo politics generally from all mix whatever for one short period we because of a, this holy fear of nuclear weapons. we did not fight bi gore's little. i mean, of course we, but millions of years ms were killed. mcmillan iraqis was killed, we killed several 100000 people. but when invaded afghanistan,

so the war. but in that, but now we return in this kind of international media we are entering. now we have to be ready. every country will have to be ready to defend itself, much more than in the previous so bold several decays. we talked about fear of being brought back into politics and to some extent, the koreans are also trying to weaponized here as the, as a means to assimilate their western partners, to a more active support of their cause. i'm sure you've heard of russia's defense ministry, a raising concerns about the ukrainians, the potentially developing ab dirty nuclear bomb. if that indeed happens, how do you think it will change the dynamics of this conflict? this metal deprecation in a nuclear dotted bond, but it's not a very lethal weapon that it is more of a psychological terrace swiftly. it will not change the dynamics of it,

but it could provide russia with an instrument to be even more to say to thing a feel changed here. thinking among the western leads because as a, as he said, there's still a statistic my associated with the problem with the western deletes. is that strategically? i see none of people. there are some people of my generation. i'm old and they're of quarter berlin. people in the west, but as in terms of strategic thinking, i don't see any in europe, which are better way of thinking about what's in a lease. i've heard you say that for us, it's an existential issue, initial survival of the state. while for many in the west, for the western decision makers, it's a matter of their own political survival or the survival of that cause. but it's hard to understand what's more important for them at this point of time if whether

it's a for them. i mean the from them. i think that issue whether it is put on the table or where somewhere there is or the survival of the system by through we should they have been falling off a little g and p for 500 years and they understand that he's finishing and that's why i'm in there so well. because the, the west with the old, old jewel gorgeous achievements, have been living off the exploitation who had called to buy direct and cold. it is local news and globalism, etc, etc. of the rest of the world. and that is finished. that's why i'm in, even without understanding that they're western the leads are us. so

i negative on this issue of acceptable or dignified means of, of conducting a confrontation among enemies. do you think at this point, there is anything that that is uh, limit when it comes to russia. i hope i hope that we're not going to use nuclear weapons massively. massively the keyboard here. and this is a strategic partner. there is one strange notion strategic and well on this rather ambiguous node we have to live there, but i appreciate your wisdom as always. thank you very much. it was a pleasure and thank you for watching hope to see you again on the well, the part, ah,

with me a classic who, what is the best time to go about them? this is on the political believe it was a lady who did it. never actually school car wasn't report backwards or something, something they might ask him report to need a. a said yes, the chest. i mean, i mean you can even down can be coma, loosened up and become lost. somebody empty a community that they've got

a laugh and you know, it's all like it's supposed to start up like you sort of affected door only out of them. julia needed one with us. that's a disclaimer. but that was the building just spoken to me, right? nobody with is looking at them during the summer because i've met with shortcut is almost a week and i left correctly was it was the case, but also then you billed us over for you will that they should i see it appears to north of chicago that we're still a when are you one of them and i think it's an appointment with

a while. we are, which are ours. we make, you know, i'm not know, let you to really care about me. if you care about the play. i wish somebody could just tell me why they're all lynching beating poverty. why supremacy is disgusting. amber. the people in mississippi voted on a flyer and 65 percent of the people voted to keep the car and why. our purpose is to fan a good name and get better help because of these monuments. the tc everywhere are not, can they're not mileage to the kids that are there monuments to the soldiers that

are you know, if we're going to be offended by everything, every negative part of our history, we have to get rid of everything a these are the consequences of yet another hillary strike by ukraine against residential areas. this house was reduced to rubble. the visits one of the residential areas targeted in the latest attacks by ukrainian forces before people are reported injured during saturday, shelling of than yes. and in the stories the shape, the news this week, russia rejoins the grain export dale, as ukraine promised this, he won't use the humanitarian car door for military purpose on moscow says it's ready to deliver grain for free for low income countries. even if this deal doesn't last.