for a while, the part when looking at the more in your brain and its world wide implications, it's hard to tell when it all began. did it start in february of 2022 when russia launched its military operation was 7 years prior, when it failed to put an end to bloodshed in history. can be traced to the collapse of the soviet union, or perhaps the beginning of the 16th century and their 3rd rise of western power. and perhaps even more importantly than the question of the origin is peaceful and fair co existence even possible between the west and the rest. well, to discuss it, i'm now joined by a gun of academic supervisor at the school for world economics and international relations at the higher school of economics in moscow. mr. kenneth, it's always a pleasure talking to you. thank you very much for your time. i'm happy to be with

you now, you've been warning about the danger and the likelihood of a war between russia and the west over your brain for many, many years. when do you think the structural foundations for this conflict? for late 25 years ago? i thought of expansion of nato a towards each grade and russia, the plane was weak, and b, trusting. and so in a way we acquiesced. and the people like myself and i did this many times over the phone, but cetera, said that sooner or later there will be war. and it will be about great because there are many of the cultural historic elements, but the main reason was so push the security, what the stations oh,

has been become becoming intolerable for us. now, can i ask you specifically about the language? because the just the other day we had a few cranes at security council, alexey denila, a person with russia sounding family, me suggested getting rid of the russian language completely. and while he did that, in a very derogatory term, he compared fashion speakers to frogs. what i want to ask is not the moral assessment, but rather than the sort of analytical assessment of what sort of consequences this math, psychological experiment of trying to raise the mother tongue from a substantial part of the population could predict. well, most pamela, probably, there will be no, you crate in the end, or very few ukraine in then you to the pulses of their present a credit of government? no. as to ah, attempts to raise russia from russia or parson,

who should oh, it was very clear from the beginning that the korean kiva elite elite was afraid of russian ladies as a more competitive. and this was the were and heard from english as a more competitive. and so they were making their policies are building their feet on the anti russian platform. there was only one of the reasons of this conflict and the weakness of, of that elite. but it was arisen, but focusing on the language as this says, sort of a battle ground or even back in 2014. i think many of the van said it was a capital is there, this language bill was one of the capitalist for russia's actions. and i'm a big fan of ludwig business, dine. it says famous selling mystic scholar. and there are many, many a studies that confirmed his famous statement that the limits of my language are

the limits of my world. that language indeed defines how you see the world in this sense. doesn't it make an a military and strategic meaning to try to erase somebody else's language law in a, in a way that is happening at the local elite or some of the leads are changing the course of the countries are also so using of the language question the same as a push to the left rear estonia, and that has been a bit oh, the 20 that had been her happening. go throw the history. math for sir language is one of their defining features of the nation. if mother finding her. so when you will want to build in here, nation, you have to build that around, learn language is the language belongs to maturity. i always share my lives elsewhere. it becomes

a problem. i wonder if you see any and linkages between this efforts to suppress the russian culture and that the, the fear of the russian influence, if you take that one can influence other nations through their language through their culture. then indeed, the russian culture becomes a very potent, our weapon. no, of course, i mean a strong culture is a potent weapon, but i would blew up a nice culture for it is a one of the strongest of instruments of influence for there is no question about that. so the, so i fully understand, i mean those people though i do not share the policies who want to get rid of to reach a culture. now, in one of your articles, he suggested that due to the composition at camellia ethnic composition of ukraine's population, it state what can only be shaped and midwife through

a very deliberate ante, russian stance. now i understand how it could be one of the political technologies, but why do you think it's the only way available for, you know, because not only because of the language, because you create has a very weak historic nation to they don't want to denigrate the crate over, hadn't been great for her 9th century so age and they have the, it has been a land which has been run over by different tribes countries. so the roots of ukrainian feet are relatively weeks. and so the have to, to, they have to dig these rules out, we should, but any, our choice app has its costs and consequences. people who try to think about the ukranian political future. surely they could have understood

that there in our country, like russia would not be able to take that indefinitely. or do you think they didn't do that? yeah, he was in that, that didn't think a in that way and that away at the beginning, russia was too weak. russia was frank to integrate into the west. so it was not a problem for much political consciousness of people like myself and very, very few outside of my and our country even verity in my country weren't, are understood that but to we were ministry. i remember that in their ninety's, and i was heading, organizing them all russian, ukrainian meetings and commissions because nobody was interested was it because the russians too, were taking a crane for granted that it was, they were taking

a credit for granted. and also one original company at no cost more than g d, p o v 3, and they were, we were who may down mistakes. we often accused her. and you are yourself often accused the west of an arrogance and ignorance. do you think russia is se guilty? of the same thing. absolutely. no, we were ignorant that we did wanted to know what was happening area where we didn't care and oh, we pay, we paid the price. it does not marry original either ukrainian, the behavior of ukrainian rates, which are ost ship simply the nation and natural from my point of view. there they are a 1st, they were building white a territory and now they, they planned to pledge that into woochie is absolutely the oldest, inevitable now,

but we will, we're also guilty snap sooner or later this military operation in the ukraine will . and, and i don't think at this point at least there is any intention in the kremlin team to great western ukraine into russia's proper. and will that territory have any other options for sort of sustaining itself politically other than extreme was the phobia. and if not, how do you think this the play? i did just use it to heard say a, it looks at the juncture. i mean, options are open and i think that there could be several, the crates. what do you mean by several, your cranes over the city. this is a widely debate debated the puts of of freight belongs to hungary owes to hungary bus to poland, romanian want this to. but again, the question is, what,

what will come out of this state as it is because if the state collapses to which a place is a possibility, then i mean that territory will be totally taken by a smart do i understand you correctly than in strategic terms? russia would be more or less ok with parts of ukraine going let's say to poland, which is just as it was the phobic as some of the ukrainian leads. but do you think like that kind of a point to view the father or border with from russia, the better if i may press that for one more question, do you think, what do you think is the best case scenario for ukraine at this point of time, because, you know, we all have relatives there and we all have emotional connections to that country.

if you could have your wish, what do you think is the best case scenario at this point of time? could be too late and sign it with the teacher friendship or with russia, open borders, etc. so, but that's a bus and nothing short of that will preserve the ukrainian sovereignty in the us if i were god. okay, what the realistic scenario there is a scenario. several, several territories and a very long war, which is probably the ok. and then you have dangers and of escalating horizontal and vertical a all the more that although we're talking about a craig mostly and oh yeah. we are like the proverbial a on good blue eyes. am i looking for keys under the lamp where he could have lost it?

ah, the crane is a plot. i'll treat warren crated a part of a huge, massive or a distribution of over world power of, of multilayered traces everywhere. i mean, we have as a single fantasy, a crisis with crisis energy crisis, crisis, middle class ways of migration. i mean, i could go on a different and it is clear that we are living through a period of desperate, desperate, and deep change. what will come out in 20 or 30 years? i don't know what we should think in these terms. of course, hopefully that will be something after 20 or 30 years and that is they, we're avoid a catastrophic them when you go, well, hope you don't have such a long horizon in certain ways. you're an optimist before and you get what happens

. let's take a very short break, but we will come to this fascinating discussion in a short while. thank you. ah hi. ah .

a if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out and about a couple. don't put your human symbols on display a guy, so you guys don't talk to strangers. i avoid noisy gatherings and rallies a marsh. we've eaten your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty because you'll russia a

specific story shortly finding a actual the far as they said, gate kind of got us academic supervisor at the school or for the comics and international relations at the higher school of economics in moscow, mrc, are going to, before they break, you are suggested that this conflict is much further than russia. ukraine. it's a, it's a full blown confrontation between russia and the west. and i've seen you right before that because it's such a global conflict, much as actions should also be targeted at the west so that it loses the appetite for picking on russia further. what exactly do you have in mind?

what actions could moscow take tier a limit? the appetite of western elite refers a room for size. it's not between it's weighted and russian in the west and the anomaly, the west and the rest and everything is changing. the west is shrinking. i mean, the rest, which i would prefer to go to cold, not, not, not a lot more west, but global majority of movies are growing in its power. but we have everything is changing. and one of the elements of this picture is that they're desperate. the attack now of the west or counter attack to stop and the duration of the, of their positions. they decided to concentrate on russia in their real aim is of course, saving their 500 years of their domination and

a mid intermediate amy's that on demand china now about to have to my chain a the, they have to 1st to take out russia. it's impossible, most probably, so that aim would not be reached. but that is a global. oh, but not a global war in terms of military. what a global war in terms of political, economic, psychological, moral of alice. but he also said that despite its global implications, this war could be thought of as russia's 4th great war, starting with the war against napoleon, the civil war of the beginning of the 20th century, the 2nd world war. and that this crime crisis. if we look at the death to law of the, of this previous conflicts they, it, it could be counted in tens of thousands enough and millions. do you think in this particular case we can do it? i hope that would not reach her. the levels of course,

of their great patriotic war or of their 2nd, but you have to call or chose by the way wrongly cold here. russian, jewel monroe, even him through his to work. but her payroll. i been a, we had the work gauge, napoleon, which was the 1st, but were to cool though i live a lot of people died, but the country didn't. i'm for interview at one on one of the valve. i guests and we are recording this interview at their sidelines have devolved that form. and she said, an interesting thing. she said like the world is used to russia, paying a disproportionate price for global peace. and there is a recognition among many of my eastern guests that russia is doing something for itself, but it's also providing common benefit, but i'm not, many of those countries are ready to stand up for those benefits directly. do you think russia is getting enough support from,

from the countries that are benefiting on the taishan? well we're no, we're not getting enough supporter, but we're and we're not counting on that support for successful force and support of china and 2 or 3 other nations and also on support of the world, the commune to now it is much freer because of her shirt so if you, the 1st and the after a short period of soviet union collapse or russia undermined then foundation of there were some hagaman a which is a military superiority, which is the complex somewhere 500 years ago. and which was, which was the foundation for the western power. so i, you know, it was freed doable already. and we're free in the world. but the people either do not understand that or in the understand the it's

a public would for them. why should the pay but there is a paradox there because on the $1.00 for nasha is there at e said that russia fried the one from the western military had germany. but on the other hand, on the other hand, some of the western leads there. i mean, they lost the, the remnants of fear because even though russia has a lot of, might, there's very a lot of difficulties in just putting in and to this constant part applauding from the, from the west. how do you think fear or the effectiveness of the nuclear deter and could be brought back into world politics? her that is her. one of the hardest question. i one could ask her to the himself or to herself. i, we actually know, but people, i myself counted that a foot war of such proportions would start somewhere. our lesson

counterpart should not stop because we are far beyond their career caribbean career crisis. i mean, there are what is happening has been a thinkable in the nuclear age. ah, liter is directly supporting arming a country which is fighting on the borders of their 1st or 2nd. nuclear should propose that that isn't thinkable that people lost. ah, i was safe here. you're right away. i. coldest of my colleagues called the strategic perez's ah, how to do with it. i don't look at that phrase strategic paris. it is an air by that i assume you mean that on the west and the world, perhaps a more generally have come to take peace for granted. and i think some of that

relates to russia's own population because in order to in a be successful in this foundation, you not only need successful military strategies, strategic thinking in modern weapons. but you need to see war as perhaps the worse, but legitimate means of defending your country's national interests. looking at how many people have left russia since the beginning of this operation. and how many presented on moral grounds. do you think the kremlin has enough support domestically to the stand it? no, as far as i know, the support is overwhelming in the last majority of the russian populations full of the work. i mean, but the probably, sir, is there a way to answer your question in a bit different way? i would say that this particular period of neutral reparation had several and

aims. the one is clear defendant in a bus, the 2nd is clear, stopped matter expansion. the 3rd is that dennis in the sci fi, ukraine, which is vague, but then there of it the but over one of the themes of the war was, of course, to mobilize russians and to clean russian society from protestant element our mind from per person or elements and pro western or culture and also can procure thinking. and when that is happening, whether it is a good or bad, we know it will come out of this process. but are we really all for one period in our lives, a strange period in our lives,

in light of command thought that peace is eternal, peace is normally is very rare specimen or friends earth. oh really? so is a nuclear winter, emily who avoid that? but the waters of the wars will come back and that is unfortunately very ugly in her mouth if human culture for one and for of geo politics generally come on me, whatever for one short period we because of a, this holy fear of nuclear weapons. we did not fight bi gore's little. i mean the 1st week, but millions of vietnamese were killed. macmillan, they were iraqis was killed. we killed several 100000 people and invaded afghanistan. so the waters button. but now we return in this

kind of international media. we are entering, though, have to be ready. every country will have to be ready to defend itself, much more than in the previous bolden. several decades. we talked about fear of being brought back into politics and to some extent, the koreans are also trying to weaponized. here as the, as a means to simulate their western partners to a more active support of their cause. i'm sure you've heard russia, that defense ministry, a raising concerns about the ukrainians, the potentially developing a dirty nuclear bomb. if that indeed happens, how do you think it will change the dynamics of this conflict? this metal deprecation in a nuclear dotted bond, but it's not a very full weapon. that it is more of a psychological terrace swiftly. it will not change the dynamics of the water,

but it could provide dresser with an instrument to be even more decisive to think it feel changed here, thinking among the western leads, because as a, as he said, there's still a separate stigma associated with the problem with the western elite says that strategically, i see none of the but there are some people of my generation i'm old and are there of course are brilliant people in the west, but as in terms of strategic thinking, i don't see any. can you repeat that which you better way of speaking about, but not least, i have heard you say that for us. it's an exit central issue, initial survival of the state. while for many in the west, for the western decision makers, it's a, it's a matter of their own political survival or the survival of that cause. but it's hard to understand what's more important for them at this point of time if, whether it's a for them. i mean the from them i think that issue whether the it

is put on the table or where somewhere there is or the survival of the system by through we should they have been falling off a little g and p for 500 years. and they understand that he's finishing and that's why i'm in there so well. because the west with all the all jo, gorgeous achievements have been living off the exploitation who had caught you by direct and cold. it is local news and globalism, etc. center of the rest of the world and that is finished. that's why i'm in, even without understanding that they're western the leads are us so oh, negative on this issue of acceptable or dignified means of conducting

a confrontation among enemies. do you think at this point, there is anything that that is off limits when it comes to russia? i hope i hope that we're not going to use nuclear weapons massively. massively the keyboard here. and this is a strategic part also there is one strange notion strategic um, because well, on this rather ambiguous node we have to live at there. but i appreciate your wisdom as always. thank you very much. it was a pleasure and thank you for watching hope to see you again on the well the part ah with

mm ah ah ah ah watch and it was a shag now shorter one and i'm not trying to stay last i knew what back with that just a national z m

a a look at this to pull up the shop. we broke the window and fragmented my husband thing to heart and killed him on the bananas, killed in the lake, ukrainian shelling of russia looked down with the story. they say the week washer. we joined the brain egg would be a lot the ukraine promise. it won't use the humanitarian corridor for military purposes. comes in the wake of a drone of thought on russian black briefly. and we've been that i read every part of it. god forsaken place and denigrate afghanistan is.