ah, a world apart. when looking at the war in your brain and its worldwide implications, it's hard to tell when it all began. did it start in february of 2022 when russia launched its military operation was 7 years prior, when it failed to put an end to bloodshed in this new frame can be traced to the collapse of the soviet union, or perhaps the beginning of the 16th century assertive rise of western power, and perhaps even more importantly than the question of the origin is peaceful and fair co existence even possible between the west and the rest. to discuss it, i'm now joined by a gun of academic supervisor at the school for world economics and international relations at a higher school of economics in moscow, mr. cora gunn. if it's always a pleasure talking to you,

thank you very much for your time. i'm happy to be with you now. you've been wanting about the danger and the likelihood of, of a war between russia and the west over ukraine for many, many years. when do you think the structural foundations for this conflict? for late 25 years ago? i thought of expansion of nato a towards each grade. and russia at that time was weak. and b, trusting. and so in a way we acquiesced. and that 5 people like myself and i did this many times over the phone, but cetera, said that sooner or later there will be war. and it will be about to crate because there are many of the cultural historic elements, but their main reasonable. so push the oh security with

the station. oh, has been become becoming intolerable for us now. can i ask you specifically about the language? because in just the other day we had a few cranes at security council. alexi denila for percent with russia sounding family, suggested getting rid of their russian language completely. and while he did that in a very derogatory term, he compared thrasher speakers to frogs. what i want to ask is not the moral assessment, but rather than the sort of analytical assessment of what sort of consequences this math, psychological experiment of trying to raise the mother tongue from a substantial part of the population could produce. well, most, most probably, there will be no, you crate in there and or very few ukraine in then you to the pulses of their present cranium, government, you know, as to attempt to raise russia from

russia for. but who should, oh, it was very clear from the beginning that the korean kiva elite elite was afraid of russian id as a more competitive. and this was the were and heard from english as a more competitive. and so they were making their policies are building their feet on the anti russian platform. there was only one of the reasons of this conflict and the weakness of, of that elite. but it was a reason. but focusing on the language as this certified battle ground, or even back in 2014. i think many of the van said it was a capital is this language? bill was one of the capitalist for rushes, actions. i'm a big fan of ludovic vision stein. it says famous selling mystic scholar, and there are many, many,

a studies that confirmed his famous statement that the limits of my language and the limits of my world. that language indeed defines how you see the world in this sense, doesn't it make it a military and strategic meaning to try to erase somebody else's language or in a, in a way that is happening, the local elite or some of the leads or change of the course of the countries are also oh, using the language question the same as a push to the left rear estonia in that that has been a bit. oh, the 20 that had been her happening. go throw the history. math for sir language is one of their defining features of the nation. if mother finding her. so when you will want to build in your nation, you have to build that around. learn language is the language belongs to maturity, i always share my lives elsewhere, but it becomes

a problem. i wonder if you see any and linkages between this efforts to suppress the russian culture and that the, the fear of the russian influence. if, if we take that one can influence other nations through their language through their culture, then indeed the russian culture becomes a very potent, our weapon. now of course, i mean a strong culture is a fulton to weapon, but i would blow up a nice culture or it is a one of the strongest of instruments of influence for there is no question about that. so the, so i fully understand, i mean those people though i do not share the policies who want to get rid of richard culture. now, in one of the articles you suggested that due to the composition at camellia ethnic

composition of ukraine's population, it state what can only be shaped and midwife through a very deliberate and here russian stance. now i understand how it could be one of the political technologies, but why do you think it's the only way available for, you know, because not, not only because of the language, because you creed has a very weak historic nation to they don't want to denigrate the crater, there hasn't been great for centuries or their weights, or they have their there, it has been a land which has been run over by different tribes countries. so the roots of ukrainian feet of a relatively weak. and so they have to, to have to dig these rules out to be sure, but any our choice app has its costs and consequences. people who

try to think about the ukranian political future. surely they could have understood that there in our country like russia would not be able to take that indefinitely. or do you think they didn't do that? if you did that, i didn't think i in that way and that way. at the beginning, rushes to week. i russia was frank to integrate into the west. so it was not a problem for much political consciousness. the people like myself and very, very few outside of my fellow country, even very in my country, weren't, are understood that but to we were minuscule. i remember that in their ninety's and i was heading, organizing them all russian. you bring in meetings and commissions because nobody was interested. it wasn't because the russians too,

were taking your crane for granted that it was, they were taking credit for granted. and also one original company at no cost more than g d p. o v. great, they were, we were who made our mistakes. we often accused, and you are yourself often accused the west of an arrogance and ignorance. do you think russia is saying guilty of the same thing? absolutely. we were ignorant to that within wanting us to know what was happening area where we didn't care. and although we pay will be the price, it does not marry original either ukrainian behavior of ukrainian reefs, which are ost, which are simply the nation and natural from my point of view, there are 1st they were building white a territory, and now they,

they planted pledged into woochie is absolutely almost inevitable now, but we will, we're also with sh, now sooner later, this military operation in the ukraine will. and, and i don't think at this point at least there is any intention in the kremlin team to great western ukraine into russia's proper. and will that territory have any other options for sort of sustaining itself politically other than extreme was the phobia. and if not, how do you think this threat directly? i did degeneracy to her to see it looks at the juncture. i mean, all options are open and i think that there could be several, the crates. what do you mean by several, your cranes with the city, the she's a widely debate debated the puts of of you for the long hungry it owes to hungary bus to poland,

romanian. want that piece to. but again, the question is, what, what will come out of this state as it is because it for the state collapses, which as opposed to the possibility, then i mean, the territory will be totally taken by a smart do i understand you correctly that sang in strategic terms, russia would be more or less, okay, with parts of your brain going, let's say to poland, which is just as it was before because some of the ukrainian leads. but the thing like that kind of a point to view the father of the border with, from the heart of russia, the better if i may press that for one more question, do you think, what do you think is the best case scenario for ukraine at this point of time because you know, we all have relatives there and we all have emotional connections to that country.

if you would have to your wish, what do you think is the best case scenario at this point of time? could be too late and sign it with a teacher friendship or with russia, open borders, etc, said. but that's impossible. and nothing short of that will preserve the ukrainian sovereignty as being the yes, if i were god and what the realistic scenario there is the scenario several, several territories and a very long war which is probably the ok. and then you know, dangers and of escalating, horizontal and vertical. they all the more that although we're talking about a crave mostly and oh yeah. we are like the proverbial a on that who flew as am i looking for keys under the lamp?

not where he could have lost it. a crane is a plot fail creek warren trade, a part of a huge, massive or distribution of world power off of multi layered traces everywhere. i mean, we have as a small fantasy for crisis with food crisis, energy crisis. grace is a middle class, some ways of migration. i mean, i could go on a different and it is clear that we are living through a period of desperate, desperate, and deep change. what will come out in 20 or 30 years? i don't know, but we should think in these terms, of course, hopefully that will be something up to 20 or 30 years, and that is they, we're avoid a catastrophic them when you grow. well, who, you know, don't have such a long horizon in certain ways. you're an optimist before and you get what happens

. let's take a very short break, but we will come to this fascinating discussion in a short while. thank you. ah, a look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except we're such orders that conflict with the 1st law of the nation. we should be very careful about personal intelligence. and the point obviously, is a truck rather than a, with artificial intelligence. real somebody ah,

a robot. most protective phone existence with ah, watching it was of i in a total if i give it a shot and i showed her one and i'm not trying to stay like a one on union, a finance national z. m a b, legible on it. when you sit down with mm

welcome back to will the forest with gay, a demick supervisor at the school or for the canal mix and international relations at the higher school of economics in moscow? mrc are gonna, before they break, you all suggested that the conflict is much further than russia, ukraine. it's a full blown confrontation between russia and the west. and i've seen you right before that because it's such a global conflict. russia's actions should also be targeted at the west, so that it loses the appetite for picking on russia further. what exactly do you have in mind? what actions could moscow take to limit the appetites of western relates, refers a real fight between them. why did that brush them the weapon? the red? no, not only of the lesson. i mean everything is changing. the west is shrinking. i mean, the rest, which i would prefer to go to cold, not a, not,

not a mo, west, but a global majority of movies are growing in its power. but we have everything that is changing. and one of the elements of this picture is that they're desperate. the attack now of the west or counter attack to stop the to ration of the, of their positions. they decided to concentrate on russia in their real aim is of course saving their 500 years of their domination. and a mid intermediate aim is under my, in china. now about 2 of the, my chain a, the, they have to 1st to take out russia. it's impossible, most probably, so that aim would not be reached, but that is at global. oh, it but not a global war in terms of military. what a global war in terms of political,

economic, psychological, moral values, everything. but he also said that despite its global implications, this war could be thought of as russia's 4th great war. starting with that war against napoleon, the civil war of the beginning of the 20th century and the 2nd world war as described crisis. if we look at the death to law of the, of this previous conflicts they, it could be counted in tens of thousands enough and millions. do you think in this particular case we can do it? i hope that olu not reach her. the levels of push of their great better to were or of their 2nd that you have to quote choice by the way, wrongly cold here, russian, german, or even imperial has to work. but it's cheryl, i been a, the work is that pulled out, which was the 1st but were to cool. so i will it, a lot of people died,

but the country didn't have an interview at one on one of the vault guests. and we are recording this interview at their sidelines of develop that form . and she said, an interesting thing, she said like the world is used to russia, paying a disproportionate prize for global peace. and there is a recognition among many of my eastern guests that russia is doing something for itself, but it's also providing common benefit, but i'm not, many of those countries are ready to stand up for those benefits directly. do you think rush is getting enough support from the, from the countries that are benefiting on taishan? well, we're no, we're not getting enough supporter, but we're and we're not counting other support except of course and support of china and 2 or 3 other nations. and also on support of the world,

the commune to now it is much freer because of her shirt. so huge 1st. and then after a short period of soviet union collapse, or russia undermined the then foundation of there were some hagaman a which was a military superiority which it to accomplish somewhere 500 years ago. and which was, which was the foundation of the western thought. so i, in a way we treat the will already, and we are free in the world, but now people leave the do not understand that or in the understood the it's a public would for them. why should the pay for, but there is a paradox there because on the $1.00 hand i you know, marsha is there at e said that russia fried the one from the western military had germany. but on the other hand, on the other hand, some of the western leads there. i mean,

they lost the air, the remnants of fear. because even though russia has a lot of, might, there's very a lot of difficulties in just putting in and to this constant part a parting from the, from the west. how do you think fear or the effectiveness of the nuclear deter it could be brought back into world politics or that is a one of the hardest question. i wanted us to himself, what of herself? we actually know, but people like myself counted that a foot war of such proportions will start somewhere. our lesson counterpart shoot in stop because we are far beyond their career caribbean career crisis. i mean, there are what is happening has been a thinkable in the nuclear age or later is directly supporting

arming a country which is fighting on the borders of their 1st or 2nd. nuclear should propose that that isn't thinkable. the people last, ah, how safe here you're right away. i called to and so michael is called the strategic perez's. ah, how to do with it. i do not know that phrase strategic carries. it is an air by that i assume you mean that on the west and the world, perhaps a more generally have come to take peace for granted. and i think some of that relates to russia's own population because in order to in a be successful in concentration, you not only need successful military strategies strategic thinking in modern weapons. but you need to see war as perhaps the worse, but legitimate means of defending your country's national interest. looking at how

many people have left russia since the beginning of this operation, and how many resent it on moral grounds, do you think the kremlin has enough support domestically to the stand it? no. as far as i know, the support is overwhelming in the last majority of the ocean population is full of the work. but the problem is, or is there a way to answer your question in a bit different way. i would say that this particular period, new to reparation, had several and aims. the one is clear defendant and a bus. the 2nd is clear, stopped nato expansion. the 3rd is that dennis in the sci fi, ukraine, which is vague, but then there of it about one of the themes of the war was, of course,

to mobilize russians and to clean russian society from protestant element our mind from per person or elements and pro with a culture and also come procure, thinking now these are when that is happening, whether it is a good or bad, we know it will come out of this process. but are we really all for one period in our lives, very strange period in the life, meaning vitals demand thought that peace is eternal, peace is normally is very rare specimen or fence earth. but we really saw is a nuclear winter employee who are worried that but the waters of the wars will come back and that is unfortunately very ugly in her mouth. if human

culture for one and for of geo politics generally from all mix whatever for one short period we because of a this holy fear of nuclear weapons. we did not fight b. gore's little. i mean we but millions of vietnamese were killed. mcmillan, iraqis was killed the, we killed several 100000 people when invaded afghanistan, so there will but in the but now we return, it is kind of international media we are entering. now we have to be ready. every country will have to be ready to defend itself. much more than in the previous bolden. several decays. we talked about fear of being brought back into politics.

and to some extent, the koreans are also trying to weaponized here as a, as a means to simulate their western partners, to a more active support of their cause. i'm sure you've heard russia, say defense ministry or raising concerns about the ukrainians, the potentially developing a dirty nuclear bomb. if that indeed happens, how do you think it will change the dynamics of this conflict? see metal deprecation in a nuclear dotted bond, but it's not a very lethal weapon that it is more of a psychological terrace. swiftly. it will not change the dynamics of water, but it could provide dresser in an instrument to be even more decisive. to think it will change dia thinking among the western alleys, because as a, as he said, there are still a separate stigma associated with the problem with the western elite says that strategically, i see none of the but there are some people of my generation. i'm old

and they're of quarter berlin, people in the west, but as in terms of strategic thinking, i don't see any in europe, which are better way of picking about, but not least, i've heard you say that for us. it's like the central issue, initial survival of the state, while for many in the west for the western decision makers it's, it's matter of their own political survival or the survival of that cause. but it's hard to understand what's more important for them at this point of time if, whether it's a for them. i mean from them i think they're issue whether it is put on the table or where somewhere there is, or the survival of the system by through we should they have been falling off a little g and p for 500 years. and they understand that he's

finishing and that's why i'm in there so well. because the west with all was all joe gorgeous achievements have been living off the exploitation who had caught you by direct and cold. it is local news, some globally like cetera. center of the rest of the world and that is finishing this way. i'm in even without understanding that there are western elite are ah, ah, so ah negative on that issue of acceptable or dignified means of far conducting a confrontation among enemies. do you think at this point, there is anything that that is of limit when it comes to russia? i hope i hope that we're not going to use nuclear weapons, especially massively the keyboard up here.

and this is a strategic but also there is one strange notion strategic come beacon, well on this rather ambiguous node we have to live there, but i appreciate your wisdom as always. thank you very much. it was a pleasure and thank you for watching hope to see you again on the well, the part with . mm ah. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even

foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical of time to sit down and talk with a question of them when you thought at home. i mean you a tricky but he was like a do you live? must be a killer one, the initial be one of club, not a dealer post on zillow, while a diaz can use body when you for watching. but you also to be done. those are the

most of the countries that are going to go on the billing system to allude to what i see these teeny buses. the little gear motivation says these 2 numbers 9 me or oh i, i now have an email folder called okay. mm. your call back to your organization and what is your response? i'm proud to be a big big main stand up.