says one, the prime minister survosity 2nd, the data minister of ins and our law. and the 3rd major, jonah i, yes i mr. press on my see these 3 names off, the suspects are not written in the police i yacht. so they say that our fair try and impartially investigation is not possible through these police. i find these protest across the country will continue until the police registered a general legal case to investigate this matter. i mean the lock on our tv, but i would have been deep august but well, that rose up, this is our next peter lavelle is on call. so i'll be back in the top of the hour. more than a headline. so i have you join us today. ah, ah,

ah, the with the hello and welcome to cross top where all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. the complex in ukraine is turned into a test of wills and endurance. and as such escalation as part of the calculus, this is what makes this complex so dangerous when nato escalates. russia reacts accordingly. and we know now american boots are on the ground. what could go wrong with the

cross talking the escalation dial. i'm joined by my guess, ray mcgovern in raleigh. he's a former c. i a analyst in new york. we have daniel is our, he is a journalist and author of 3 books on the us constitution. and in paris we cross the shall bridge. well, he is a political commentator or telling cross or girls and effect. that means it can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate re let me go to you 1st in raleigh. we have an admission from the pentagon that indeed american boots are on the, on the ground in the form of inspectors. what 910 months in to start looking at all of the vast arms that are being sent there to start looking around. like are they actually going where they're supposed to go? because we have authorities in penguin and denmark thing otherwise, which of course, we fully expected. but more important story is about the diplomatic front. so called diplomatic, it is obviously being leak by the intelligence community that they are kind of

putting a little pressure on the landscape to be a little bit more flexible on diplomacy, but not to end the war. actually to keep the war going on. because the problem is, is that american european allies, beginning to say, we really didn't exactly sign up to this. ok, there's a lot going on here. i know the midterms are sucking the oxygen out of the room here. but you know, this is very, very important here. because when the midterm is there over this complex, still going to be going on re thoughts? well, the mid terms, of course, are today. i see the admission that there are inspectors trying to make sure that those weapons that we're sending to ukraine are not falling into the wrong hands. i see that as a political ploy. it's a big issue here. united states, what's happening to all a billions of dollars tax dollars that we're spending on weapons to ukraine. so we

have a kind of political thing here. i don't think it makes much difference whether we acknowledge publicly that there are troops troops on the ground or whether that we leave it to people who, who have been saying that all along. now the real real question here is is sullivan and the other is trying to persuade ukraine that, you know, it's time to deal. no one kind of watches, poaching all low way through. that was my job back every day. ok. i watched the whole 3 and a half hours said die. why do i mention it? because there's an offer him that pooty himself suggests. i don't want to misquote him, so i'm just going to read 2 sentences ready at the esa. i guess it can be an apple of discordant, or it can be a symbol of finding some kind of solution to everything that is happening now. it's

not a question of russia. we've said many times already negotiate, but i recently mentioned this publicly in the, in the kremlin. and, but the leaders of the key review decided not to continue negotiations. it is true that the final or because it belongs to those who implement the policy in washington, it is very easy for them to solve this problem, to send the appropriate signals to hear that they should change their position and seek a peaceful solution. now, how much of an off ramp can do you need the size that the russians have stopped replied, yes. would they be willing to say, all right, well, make it into a city like 3, yes after the war or maybe they would. why don't you try it? why does the mainstream pressed even mention this little hint that poochie would be ready to deal? if the esa was one of the apples of trust rather than apples of discord in daniel?

i'm glad that ray has brought this up here because it's, it's almost to the point of absurd where you constantly read in the media. what is the kremlin up to what is put in thinking? actually, it's very easy to find out what he's thinking. he says a lot of things, it's recorded the kremlin website in english. you go to task dot com. all of these features here rains. absolutely right it, these, these are not things hard to find out. but daniel, what is going on with nothing about ukraine without ukraine? ok, i mean, it seems to me, the administration is really boxed itself in because it does what it needs an off ramp, but it's already committed itself to the zalinski regime. and of course the gang around zalinski want this to last as long as possible. so the griff last as long as possible. afghan i said it was, you know, a year ago and now it's ukraine. go ahead, daniel. well, i mean, 1st of all, wars have a tendency to escalate. i mean, that is a war is a, is

a tear in the fabric of legality. and once that care occurs, the tendency for the tear to get bigger and bigger. so, so yeah, i mean, so the administration is making various noises about an off ramp, but the administration wants to keep the war going because it thinks it has potent box, then it thinks it has the military upper hand. it wants to preface advantage to the, to the maximum. it thinks it can make. russia squealed in the sense and so therefore was to keep on going. and russia sort of seasons feels the same way. it feels that solidarity in the west has started to crack due to the economic breakdown that it can, it can wait long enough until the, until nato is really, you know, revenue by serious conflicts. and then it will be able to press its advantage. so

the more will keep going, it will keep intensifying, it'll keep escalating, and the great danger is that it turns into another 1914. and that is a significant risk. you know, y'all and parents. i mean, i said in my introduction, this is a, a test of wills and endurance. and now i've taken on board with daniel has to say, i know that he's presenting a certain interpretation of how the conflict is proceeding. i completely categorically, disagree with it. i rush, it does have the upper hand here. i don't see how ukraine is winning. but you know, who is, who can tell you who is really losing and it's europe that is losing here. the solidarity in europe is beginning to, to crack their cracks all over the place right now. and that's why i think the administration intentionally league, you know, that they're looking for some kind of venue and a way forward for negotiation not to end the conflict,

but to make sure the european stay in line thoughts. go ahead. oh yes, you started basing. what could go home, but everything has gone along since the beginning. they were going to close the russian economy, they have not succeeded. now the african m e r collapsing did not want to admit that this is a consequence at this in power. the consequence of the sanctions, i mean the germany screen, her companies are leaving for the united states and, you know, she has been begging to beijing and he said doctor, they do him and heis people in the gains in his own counseling for doing that. i mean, i don't know what they're supposed to do. i mean, it's a catastrophe in europe. and of course it's tool that if you will, but the problem is and indeed, i am surprised myself by the will of the cleaners to fight and to die. both both of their county that a, they're not going to get back very late, they're very unlikely to get back. and b, though they're not wanted at all way, would they do that? that they found surprising. now on the ocean side,

i am fairly optimistic, but you must realize that they have not been able to liberty to make sure that dentist is not bound. i am in the dow bumps on dun asked every day, and they have only about the last night. been able to take all of the, the less airports with their own conclusions 2015. so you know, the progress of the russians is so, and so, so i wouldn't be too optimistic. and if there was a serious peace over her, i would consider it if i was put in, but i'm not put in with with these no committee is not for coming. see this piece of her because it in ski still wants to get back. you can in the boundaries of 1991, which means including creamier and after ok now for expelling 800000 occupied hush and occupy years in creamy. they could be climbing as it will be, you know, they, they say to be like the, they did the, and, you know, the, she did,

and after the war, which i found, you know, was maybe understandable at that time. it's still an injustice and the well, i mean, i mean it may sound the sedated land was never part of germany. ok, or crimea was part of russia before the united states even became a country to them. okay. it's even worse. but i mean, even even that they found, you know, heather, in judgment, that was after the war and as it did, they didn't know that, but they're saying you're down you, i don't know how sions are high in came after 24. didn't know what exactly, but anyway they want ethnic cleansing. so it's very a symmetric or the hushes only was i think that's legitimate to protect the oceans . were because of accident of history actually because of good when his decision would educational sewage in ranking for you. okay. let me, let me go, go again. we're going to right here in raleigh. i mean, do you think that anyone in the administration actually is beginning to have 2nd thoughts about this? because the goal is to weaken russian has nothing to do with ukraine re well it

does have to do is what the neo cons who are running things in washington watch. now, will they wake up? i think today will be the proof in the pudding. and republicans already hinted they're going to be a little boy, says all about this and look very carefully at whether more arms are slated for ukraine craters already. ship houston arms just a matter of can they use them as also a matter of whether the u. s. will stop where it is now, or what the nail collins are able to persuade the defense department to give a longer range, still a longer range missiles to ukraine or that cannot be ruled out foolish as it is. as for the military situation, you know, i don't know, i don't know what's going to happen. but i do know that 300000 reserves are a quarter of them already in, in ukraine, from russia. i know from being

a military well be, are army intelligence, op sure, that the 1st thing you look at is the estimate of the situation and how enemy they are. what kinds of weapon read they have. what's the weather going to be like? what's the terrain like, whoa, the other thing is locks ok. not bagels and locks, but lines of communication. and right, right. i need you to hold that thought. we're going to go to a short break and asked about short break. we'll continue our discussion on the escalation dial stay with me in the release of russian state narrative. i've been in san

this house on a group in the 55 when. okay, so 9 is good bargain. speaking when else calls with will ban in the european union, the kremlin move. yep. machine. restate on to russia for date and split marquee sport that given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube with ah,

ah, welcome to cross stock. we're all things are considered. i'm carol a bell to remind you we're discussing the escalation dial with it. go back to daniel and new york. the cynic in me a is a, makes me think that i, cuz i've asked this question a number of times in this program who's got the clocks and who's got the time. and almost every single guests have had in this program has said the same thing to me. russia has both the clocks and the time. and as winter approaches here. now i think

everyone fully expecting that they'll be another ukrainian offensive, and they'll be a russian offensive as well. so that we could get some kind of movement on the battlefield. we have to remind our viewers that there was a partial mobilization of 300000 troops from the russian side. so that goes into the mix here. but as the economic numbers come out of europe, daniel, it really is kind of a test of endurance here. russia is coming out of her, it was very short, but a very sharp recession rush is coming out a bit. growth is being expected next year. but you can't say that about the west, particularly in europe, where it looks like it's going to go into a deep and rather long recession. so it's a game of endurance daniel. hello, all wars are games of endurance. i mean, i mean the u. s. civil war was a game of endurance that was supposed to been over by christmas and 861 and lasted 3, you know, 2 and a half more years, 3 and a half more years. so i'm, so, i mean,

so all wars are involved this, and in this case this war is dragging on, you know, just longer and longer. you know, it's, i think it's an empty argument as to whether, you know, who has the upper hand, who i show the ukraine. i think that the both are, are arming themselves more and more heavily for digging him for a, a longer and more intense fight. but that's what so dangerous. i mean that is what's pushing the escalation. i agree, the economy of the west is dreadful shape. and especially for a country like germany, it's facing a huge crunch, but so is italy. so it's the u. k. so as france and so as america, so you know, so, so we'll see who for support 1st. but the, but the, you know, all it takes is one element of missile to land either in russia itself or, and, you know, or in poland or romania for this thing to spread like wildfire. and i think

that is that chance is growing. well daniel, i mean the polls want greater american presence in poland. ok. i mean they want to escalate, they want to as well. and then, you know, finland found itself in the very odd situation or are they going to take the new killer option or not? and then the president piddling kind of moved as well. everyone's feathers? no, no. we didn't say that. i agree with you that held in paris. i mean again, you forget to look at the taste, a test of endurance. well, over the course of a few days, the, the, the russians took out about half of ukraine's electricity grid. there's nothing to stop them to do the rest of the 50 percent over 2 or 3 days. ok. and i think that that's, that was obviously, as a such being said, now for those that, you know, say this is in humane. yes, war is inhumane, but electricity has dual purpose. this is a conflict here. that's why i look at this, you know, is it a rather even bomb bomb? a battlefield here?

i don't see it at all. i see the escalation in the, in the pane dial can be turned up very, very high against the ukrainians. and that's what i'm i, that's why i think like jake's element is beginning to realize they've boxed themselves into a corner. the russians are not in the corner at all. okay. i mean, who they get to talk to. they did, there is and then he doesn't want to talk are biting, doesn't want to talk. so the russians are going to continue with their objectives. go ahead in paris is about, you mean in, in humane a. i remember that in 1991, i was working american university or as a physicist and my colleagues were a happy to see the hold infrastructure if you're not being these total and at a table consequence for the civilian population. and then later there was the embargo, hundreds of thousands of that's at her. i mean, i know, i mean, as she battled ukrainians, but they don't feel better for the americans who are, you know, complaining about that. and of course, those people are not conservative as liberal democrats,

et cetera in the what they wanted to see is that in e, that's a way for russia to win. because of course, if they were to generally and then take off the whole of electric infrastructure in kane, what are they going to do it even though he know what i mean, they have to say. and i think that's the reason the way in the the americans are saying, well, at least pretend that you want to make negotiation, which is of course, and those start up. but that may be what they try to do. and obviously, my cars are not leg dorothy good, only. i say that we need to have negotiations again, obviously shows by going to wish busying his pain to you know, her more links with her shane dairy, little jane and didn't succeed a well. but obviously you have this picked up, i mean there's punch in your hobbies collapsing, western europe because you have these fanatics in the baltic state and in poland. maybe nothing of causing a candle that they don't know,

but even eastern europe is not. i'm a genius. i mean, survey care, hungary certainly bulgaria. a question. so i think that's fund is going to collapse 1st. the us need to have basis, shall you bring up a really good point? i am going to hang on. hang on here. it just brings up a very good point. you re, if there is a collapse of support in europe. does that worry you that these heart heads in washington in london would escalate to keep that coalition of the willing to go? that's what i'm scared about. because obviously there's this conflict, it's very, i disliked in europe because of the economic pain, but it's the, it's the americans, it wanted this to happen. they have to find a balance here. that's what i'm afraid of. i'm agreeing with daniel on this point. go ahead re i agree as well. i mean, europe is a shambles. the real question is, will the germans finally after the 77 years now and up to say no, no, no, no,

no they, well they, well, they're programmed now they can't, they can't. i'm sorry, go ahead. well, what, when their industry falls apart when they start freezing during this winter, and when they are told because it is factual, that not stream 2 and one have been sabotaged by the united states who else. and then i think there's a chance that they will not act as they did in 1933 when a good guys, one of the majority could stand up there on to date. i think. and i've been saying this for a long time, but this time i might be true. they may be up to that when they start racing down. that's really big. what i was talking about before in the military situation is you look at a map, ok, and you say as dancers, russia, the only way russia could lowe's, is if nuclear weapons were employed, russia doesn't need to do that, which is said so. so the question is,

why is the u. s. regime this nucleus as specter and accusing protein falsely of threatening to use tactical nuclear weapons is not done. so i worry about why the us is saying that he has done so. yeah, we cause daniel beside that is talking about nuclear weapons, is the side that is losing. that's what makes this all so very scary. daniel. it is very scary. i quite agree. i mean, i read his rate as re brought up. i mean, the big issue is nordstrom, i mean, they know who destroyed north street. it's been 6 weeks and the, you know, as that to tell me they have no idea it daniel, that goes into the file of, i guess we'll never know. ok. i mean, do you notice that have you noticed these kind of these it is, is, i guess will really never know, keep going that way. but i think everyone,

everyone does know, yeah. and germany and in germany, you know, the germans, you know, as, sooner or later they, you know, they will, they will admit the true. and, and once they do, it's a whole new ball game. i mean, once they realize that no how, how dramatically and decisively us and european interests are diverging that and that comes to that then comes a moment of truth. then they've got to realize what the hell, what the, how have we gotten ourselves into? where do we go from here? yeah, but yeah, but i mean, i'm north stream is the, is the ticking time bomb. it's been ignored for 6 weeks, but i can't be ignored that much longer. because it's diff, increasingly obvious who's responsible party is. and daniel, given everybody doesn't want to say the obvious. ok, it's amazing. why would russia rebuild it? why would they rebuild it?

just for it to be blown up again? they won't let it go ahead. yeah, libertarian, go ahead. go ahead and paris was, you don't of serbia. exactly. that is is everybody knows who breathed up and nobody, there's 2 said so obviously there's not the russian because if the russian did it would dare to said. so it either wait another yes or bullet, but i mean, he said that the pick up suggested that, of course he knows also everybody knows. and the german no, and the russian and the german law that the russian knowing the and, and the jo good that far into mediation. well, at the 1945 in him, i can't believe that. i mean that these political teens will do anything for the americans, but the german population, i'm not sure. on the german, the industry, all the industry was going through with the shows to resume to, to negotiate concord because they need the, you know, they need a contract with the, some of you as well. china, i suppose there's no,

you know it's, it's an in and look at the look something a cha, ching, you see my car has been very warm with mother or the prison live in 0 is been gazing grey. there was the president of in israel, i did not legally id mccoy. now he's very friendly with my car. well, religion. i went, you know, message i'll let me go to re before with end the program here. i mean, we're one minute re, i mean our, oh, when are europeans are going to understand that the united states is not their friend in this? it's matter of fact, the u. s. is it's damaging the year. europe's interest far more than russia. ray one minute. well, the europeans, unlike many in our administration, are not completely dumb. they'll wake up when they enter st. implodes. why did torrance go to beijing last week? ok, so they're gonna recognize what's going on here. just as a matter of matter how, how long this persists. so that's why i think sullivan,

not the brightest star in the sky, is scurrying around and try to figure out how to handle this thing during the summer, or winter it, you know, to end the program. i've never seen such low octane leadership in the western world in my life time, and this is what we get for neil liberal ideology where all of them are replaceable with each other. they're all exactly the same and we, and we can find that out with the midterms. gentlemen. all right, that's all the time we have many. thanks them i guess in new york. raleigh and in tears. and thanks, a lot of people are watching us here. darky. see you next time. remember crossland rules ah ah ah ah, ah.

oh boy, show you the most all. who are so full, do you, do russia is the aggression know his answer. much matter. i need a key rust wouldn't do. jim is junior, should slow boy, the ratio we have any quality for russians can. all we gotta do is just feed them over the head and just tell them the right way to live near is going to do with a on these live the lit up like you, with all the listed movie news. you. that'll still going to lot of nice glove news with any issues of national has been used to be

a for new sure. who genius. they don't give up. i don't give to finish with our human at the washer to work. so i would have to watch with ah ah

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