finances up there for morning. moisture ah new domain names you give me the ah the hello and welcome to cross talk where all things considered. i'm peter live out. the conflict in ukraine is turned into a test of wills and endurance. and as such, escalation as part of the couch with this is what makes this complex so dangerous when nato escalates. russia reacts accordingly. and we know now american boots are on the ground. what could go wrong with

the cross talking the escalation dial. i'm joined by my guess, ray mcgovern in raleigh. he's a former c. i a analyst in new york. we have daniel is our, he is a journalist and author of 3 books on the us constitution. and in paris we cross the show, brick wall. he is a political commentator or a gentleman, cross our girls and a fact that means he can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate re let me go to you 1st in raleigh. we have an admission from the pentagon that indeed american boots are on the, on the ground in the form of inspectors. what 910 months, and to start looking at all of the vast arms that are being sent there to start looking around like are they actually going where they're supposed to go? because we have authorities in penguin and denmark thing otherwise, which of course, we fully expected. but more important story is about the diplomatic front. so called diplomat like it is obviously being leaked by the intelligence community

that they're kind of putting a little pressure on lensky to be a little bit more flexible on diplomacy, but not to end the war actually to keep the war going on. because the problem is, is that america, european allies are beginning to say, we really didn't exactly sign up to this. ok? there's a lot going on here. i know the mid terms are sucking the oxygen out of the room here. but you know, this is very, very important here because when the midterms are over, this complex are still going to be going on re thoughts. well, the mid terms of course are today. i see the admission that there are inspectors trying to make sure that those weapons that we're sending to ukraine not falling into the wrong hands. i see that as a political ploy. it's a big issue here. united states, what's happening all a billions of dollars tax dollars that we're spending on weapons to ukraine. so we

have a kind of political thing here. i don't think it makes much difference whether we acknowledge publicly that there are troops on the ground or whether we leave it to people who, who have been saying that all along. now the real real question here is, is sullivan and the other is trying to persuade ukraine that, you know, it's time to deal. no one kind of watches, poaching all the way through. i. that was my job back every day. okay. i watch the whole 3 and a half hours that die. why do i mention that? because there is an offer him that pooty himself suggests. i don't want to misquote him, so i'm just going to read 2 sentences ready at the esa. i guess it can be an apple of discordant, or it can be a symbol of finding some kind of solution to everything that is happening now. it's

not a question of russia. we have said many times already negotiate. but i recently mentioned this publicly in the, in the kremlin. and, but the leaders of the key over here decided not to continue in negotiations. it is true that the final or begins to that belongs to those who implement the policy in washington. it is very easy for them to solve this problem, to send appropriate signals to hear that they should change their position and seek a peaceful solution. now, how much of an op ramp can do? you need the size that the russians have stopped replied, yes. would they be willing to say, all right, well, make it into a city like 3, yes after the war, or maybe they would. why don't you try it? why does it the mainstream pressed? even mention this little hint that poochie would be ready to deal if the esa was

one of the apples of trust rather than apples of discord in daniel, i'm glad that ray is brought this up here because it's, it's almost to the point of absurd where you constantly read in the media. what is the kremlin up to what is put in thinking? actually, it's very easy to find out what he's thinking. he says a lot of things. it's recorded on the kremlin website. in english, you go to task dot com. all of these features here rains. absolutely right it, these, these are not things hard to find out. but daniel, what is going on with nothing about ukraine without ukraine? ok, i mean, it seems to me, the administration is really boxed itself in because it does what it needs an off ramp, but it's already committed itself to the zalinski regime. and of course the gang around zalinski want this to last as long as possible. so the griff last as long as possible. afghan i said it was, you know, a year ago and now it's ukraine. go ahead daniel. well, i mean, 1st of all,

wars have a tendency to escalate. i mean, that is a war is a, is a tear in the fabric of legality. and once that care occurs, the tendency for the tear to get bigger and bigger. so. so yeah, i mean, so the administration is making various noises about an off ramp, but the administration wants to keep the war going because it thinks it has potent box, then it thinks it has the military upper hand. it wants to preface advantage to the, to the maximum. it thinks it could make russia squeal in the sense and so therefore was to keep on going. and russia sort of seasons feels the same way. it feels that solidarity in the west has started to crack due to the economic breakdown that it can, it can wait long enough until the, until nato is really, you know, revenue by serious conflicts. and then it will be able to press its advantage. so

the war will keep going, it will keep intensifying, it'll keep escalating, and the great danger is that it turns into another 1914. and that is a significant risk. you know, y'all and parents. i mean, i said in my introduction, this is a, a test of wills and endurance. and now i've taken on board with daniel house to say, i know that he's presenting a certain interpretation of how the conflict is proceeding. i completely categorically, disagree with it. i rush, it does have the upper hand here. i don't see how ukraine is winning. but you know, who is, who can tell you who is really losing and it's europe that is losing here. the solidarity in europe is beginning to, to crack their cracks all over the place right now. and that's why i think the administration intentionally league, you know, that they're looking for some kind of venue and

a way forward for negotiation not to end the conflict, but to make sure the european stay in line thoughts. go ahead. oh yes you, you started basing what could go hung, but everything has gone along since the beginning. they were going to close the russian economy. they have not succeeded. now the african, the means are collapsing, did not want to admit that this is a consequence of this. in part, the consequence of the sanctions. i mean the germany screen, her companies are leaving for the united states. and you know, she has been begging to beijing and he said that her bedroom and high speed belinda gaines in his own counseling for doing that. i mean, i don't know what they're supposed to do. it means a catastrophe in europe. and of course, it's tool that if you will, but the problem isn't indeed, i am surprised myself by the will of the clean wants to fight and to die both both of their county that a, they're not going to get back very late. they're very unlikely to get back and b, though they're not wanted at all way, would they do that?

that they found surprising. now on the ocean side, i am fairly optimistic, but you must realize that they have not been able to liberate, to make sure that done this is not bound. i am in dire bombs and then asked every day. and the only about the last night been able to take all of the, the less airports with their own conclusions 2015. so you know, the progress of the russians is so, and so, so i wouldn't be too optimistic. and if there was a serious piece over her, i would consider it if i was put in, but i'm not put in, but of course there is no coming. there is no for coming. see this piece of her because it in ski still wants to get back. you can in the the boundaries of 1991, which means including creamier and after ok. now for expelling 800000 occupied hush and occupy yourself creamy. i have the like a big claim as will be, you know, they, they say to be like the, they did the and, you know, the, she did,

and after the war which i found, you know, was maybe understandable at that time and still, and the justice and the, well, i meant michelle, this a deadline was never part of germany. ok. so crimea was part of russia before the united states even became a country to them. okay. it's even worse. but i mean, even, even that they found, you know, had in judgment that was after the war and as it did, they didn't know that, but they're saying you're down, you, i don't know how sions are high in came after 24. didn't know what exactly, but anyway they want ethnic cleansing. so it's very a symmetric or the hushes only. why they think that's legitimate to protect the hutchins were because of accident of history actually because of good when his decision. good educational sewage in ranking for you. okay. let me, let me go, go again. we're gonna right here in raleigh. i mean, do you think that anyone in the administration actually is beginning to have 2nd thoughts about this? because the goal is to weaken russian has nothing to do with ukraine re well it

does have to do is what the nail con, so running things in washington watch. now, will they wake up? i think today will be the proof in the pudding. and republicans already hinted they're going to be a little boy, says all about this and look very carefully at whether more arms are slated for ukraine craters already. ship houston arms just a matter of can they use them as also a matter of whether the u. s. will stop where it is now, or what the nail collins are able to persuade the defense department to give a longer range, still a longer range missiles to ukraine that cannot be ruled out foolish as it is. as for the military situation, you know, i don't know, i don't know what's going to happen, but i do know that 300000 reserves are a quarter of them already in, in ukraine, from russia. i know from being

a military, well be an army intelligence oper. sure that the 1st thing you look at is the estimate of the situation and how enemy they are. what kinds of weapon read they have. what's the weather going to be like? what's the terrain like, whoa, the other thing is locks ok. not bagels and locks, but lines of communication. and re i get a hold that thought we're going to go to a short break and asked about short break. we'll continue our discussion on the escalation dial. stay with the news. the news.

oh, more school will show you the most all who are so full is you do with russia is the aggression know who answered much about or i need a key. what were the teachings to you should slow border course you, we have any quality for russians. can all we gotta do is just feed them over the head and just tell them the right way to live near is going to do with this, your modem, which is around the wasn't like we did it on these clear the way up like you with the boy, you jim weeks you a little, i'm with a doing business with us on the list with a lot of nice gloves with national has been used to be a for the new sure room genius with friends with

our season at the washer. who works with the washer live with with well, can i could cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle, to remind you we're discussing the escalation dial with cisco back to daniel and new york. the cynic in me is that makes me think that because i've asked this question a number of times in this program who's got the clocks and who's got the time. and almost every single guests have had on this program and said the same thing to me. russia has both the clocks and the time, and as winter approaches here. now i think every is fully expecting that they'll be

another ukrainian offensive, and they'll be a russian offensive as well. so that we could get some kind of movement on the battlefield. we have to remind our viewers that there was a partial mobilization of 300000 troops from the russian side. so that goes into the mix here. but as the economic numbers come out of europe, daniel, it really is kind of a test of endurance here. russia is coming out of her, it was very short, but a very sharp recession rush is coming out a bit. growth is being expected next year. but you can't say that about the west, particularly in europe, where it looks like it's going to go into a deep and rather long recession. so it's a game of endurance daniel. hello, all wars are games of endurance. i mean, i mean the u. s. civil war was a game of endurance that was supposed to been over by christmas and 861 and lasted 3, you know, 2 and a half more years, 3 and a half more years. so i'm, so, i mean,

so all wars are involved this, and in this case this war is dragging on, you know, just longer and longer. you know, i think it's an empty argument as to whether, you know, who has the upper hand, who i show the ukraine. i think that the both are, are arming themselves more and more heavily for digging him for a, a longer and more intense fight. but that's what so dangerous. i mean that is what's pushing the escalation. i agree, the economy of the west is dreadful shape. and especially for a country like germany, it's facing a huge crunch, but so is italy. so it's the u. k. so as france and so as america, so you know, so, so we'll see who for support 1st. but the, but the, you know, all it takes is one element of missile to land either in russia itself or, and, you know, or in poland or romania for this thing to spread like wildfire. and i think that is that chance is growing. well daniel,

i mean the polls want greater american presence in poland. ok. i mean they want to escalate, they want to as well. and then, you know, finland found itself in the very odd situation or are they going to take the new killer option or not? and then the president opinion kind of moved as well. everyone's feathers? no, no. we didn't say that. i agree with you that held in paris. i mean again, you forget to look at the taste, a test of endurance. well, over the course of a few days, the, the, the russians took out about half of ukraine's electricity grid. there's nothing to stop them to do the rest of the 50 percent over 2 or 3 days. ok. and i think that that's, that was obviously as a being said now for those that, you know, say this is in humane. yes, war is inhumane, but electricity has dual purpose. it is a conflict here. that's why i look at this, you know, is it a rather even a battlefield here?

i don't see it at all. i see the escalation and the in the pain dial can be turned up very, very high against the ukrainians. and that's what i'm i, that's why i think jakes, elephant is beginning to realize they've box themselves into a corner. the russians are not in a corner at all. okay. who they get to talk to. they did. there is and then he doesn't want to talk bite and doesn't want to talk. so the russians are going to continue with their objectives. go ahead and paris there is about, you mean in you mean a, i remember that in 1991, i was working american university. and as a physicist and my colleagues were very happy to see the whole infrastructure of iraq being this title. and at a table consequence for the civilian population. and then later there was the embargo, hundreds of thousands of that set up. i mean, i know, i mean, as you battled ukrainians, but they don't feel bad for the americans who are, you know, complaining about that. and of course, those people on up conservative, honest,

liberal democrats at set up in the what they wanted to see that indeed that's a way for her to win. because of course, if they were to january and then take off the whole of elect leaking fast like during a cane, what are they going to do it as though he no worked on him. they have to say. and i think that's the reason the way in the the americans are saying, well, at least pretend that you want to making a decision, which is of course, and those that are, but that may be what they try to do. and obviously my cars are way not like gothic . garalia said that we need to have negotiations again, obviously shows by going to be beijing is trying to, you know, half her own more links with her showing directly to china. didn't succeed a well. but of you think you hobbies, collab, i mean the pont, in your hobbies collapsing, western europe, cause of these fanatics in the baltic state and in poland may been the national and, and i'll causing a candle that they don't know. but the even eastern europe is not the my genius. i

mean, survey care, hungary, southern ne bulgaria are not a little fanatically and a russian. so i think that pont is going to collapse 1st. the sort of need to, i have my child, shall you bring up a really good point i, i know you're going to hang on. hang on here again. just brings up a very good point. you re, if there is a collapse of support in your that were you that the hot heads in washington in london would escalate to keep that coalition of the willing to go back. could i'm scared about because obviously there's, this conflict is very disliked in europe because of the economic pain, but it's the, it's the americans, they wanted this to happen. they have to find a balance here. that's what i'm afraid of. i'm agreeing with daniel on this point, go ahead re i agree as well. i mean, europe is a shambles. the real question is, will the germans finally after the 77 years now and up to say no, no, no, no,

no they, well they well that they're programmed. now they can't, they can't. i'm sorry, go ahead. well, when their industry falls apart, when they start freezing during this winter, and when they are told because it is factual, that not stream 2 and one have been sabotaged by the united states who else. and then i think there's a chance that they will not. i those they did in 1933 when a good guys, one of the majority could stand up there on to date. i think, and i've been saying this for a long time, but this time i might be true. they may be up to that when they start racing down. that's really big. what i was talking about before in the military situation is you look at a map, ok, and you say that there's russia, the only way russia could lowe's, is if nuclear weapons were employed, russia does it need to do that, which is said so. so the question is,

why is the u. s. regime this nucleus as specter and accusing protein falsely of threatening to use tactical nuclear weapons? he has not done so. i worry about why the us is saying that he has done so. yeah, we cause daniel beside that is talking about nuclear weapons, is the side that is losing. that's what makes this all so very scary. daniel. it is very scary. i quite agree. i mean the i rach actually is re as re brought up. i mean, the big issue is nordstrom, i mean, you know, who destroyed north stream, it's been 6 weeks. and then you know, at that time they have no idea. the data that goes into the file of, i guess will never know. ok. i mean, did you notice that have you noticed these kind of these it is, is, i guess will really never know, keep going that way. but everyone,

everyone does know. yeah. and germany and in germany, you know, the germans, you know, as sooner or later they, you know, they will, they will admit the truth. and, and once they do, it's a whole new ball game. and once they realize that no how, how dramatically and decisively us and european interests are diverging that and that comes to that then comes the moment of truth. then they've got to realize what the hell, what the hell have we gotten ourselves into? where do we go from here? yeah, but yeah, but i mean, i'm north stream is the ticking time bomb. it's been ignored for 6 weeks, but i can't be ignored that much longer. because it's diff, increasingly obvious would respond well, party is. and daniel, given everybody doesn't want to say the obvious, ok, it's amazing. why would russia rebuild it? why would they rebuild it?

just for it to be blown up again? they won't let it go ahead. yeah, libertarians go ahead, go ahead and pairs. we don't of serbia. exactly. that is is everybody knows who breathed up and nobody dares to said so obviously that's not the russian because if the russian did it would dare to said. so he did the wait another yes or gold. but i mean, he said that the pregnant suggested that, of course, he knows also, everybody knows. and the german, no, and the russian and the german know that the russian knowing the and, and the jo. good that far into mediation? well, of the 1945 in him. i can't believe that. i mean that these political teens will do anything for the americans, but the german population, i'm not sure. on the german dean, there's 3. all the industry was going through with the shows the vision to, to negotiate concord because they need the, you know, they need the contracts with some of you as well. china, i suppose there's no,

you know it's, it's an in and look at it. look something a cha, ching, you see my car, you've been very warm with mother or the prison live in 0 is been gazing grey. there was the president of in israel, i did not like i did not quite now is very friendly with my car. well, village in a way, you know, message. i'll let me go to re before with end the program here. i mean, we're one minute re, i mean, i will, when are europeans are going to understand that the united states is not their friend in this? it's matter of fact, the u. s. is it's damaging the year. europe's interest far more than russia. ray one minute. well, the europeans, unlike many in our administration, are not completely dumb. they'll wake up when they enter st. implodes. why did charlotte's go to beijing last week? ok. so they're gonna recognize what's going on here, just as a matter of matter how, how long this persists. and that's why i think sullivan, not the brightest star in the sky,

is scurrying around and try to figure out how to handle this thing during the summer or winter it. but you know, the end, the program, i've never seen such lo, octane leadership in the western world in my life time. and this is what we get for neil liberal ideology where all of them are replaceable with each other. they're all exactly the same. and we, and we can find that out with the midterms gentlemen. all right, that's all the time we have many, thanks them i guess in new york. raleigh and in tears. and thanks. so our viewers are watching us here. darky. see you next time. remember cross mantles ah ah, [000:00:00;00]

ah move when i was shooting wrong, i just don't know. you well. yes to shape out a because the adjective and engagement equals the trail went so many find themselves worlds apart. we choose to look so common ground.

i will never be a victory for russia with solutions you will you still wait unless you really need that, unless you look at a meal. ukraine war is a proxy war. this is a war between russia and the united states. naz, oman, on made. it comes to not should get done in carbon dioxide. america forces are and you're not in your engage in conflict with russian for use. american forces are here and defend nato allies. what happens if nato escalates even more than the special military operation become a war when you put those have so that will be rules that dealership and that'll the doesn't is much. i see it, i see your to us thinking possibly go to be a live. so you sleep, he sure ye can you stuff to with almost them. let's see when you live at home and you're still foolish there in your sewage,

never speak of the girl who's ah, russia is the aggression? no. if injured much about we have any quality for russians, we have actual racism, bigotry, against russians. it's now dangerous to be russian than europe. so i work with as possible. if a nation suddenly be dislike, well was the hotel it always there and only now come to the for the last haul, we'll show you the most for so for the is router will be a new one, hasn't been seen before in their perspective,

a given the from the allows you to promote, inform, some junior studies before door. i knew that i knew you started. ok. you know people not yes. who's dial? it was a king's up door. could go with his i hear because that's a theme is usually when he got a question with consumer digital music was due to mr. you should slow border over here. all we gotta do is feed him over the head and just tell him the right way to live near is going to do it as a whole do it before i let you know more just to be i can play a shy many, the kids i tried to understand why my own credit news use