and 900000000 cook using traditional fossil fuels. these people are resilient and every day is a fight for their lives and live lewis, let alone climate change. do you care about leveraging? no just images. how worried are you about climate change? i think it's, it's a matter that very scary. i think personally, we've experienced very highs and very lowes. so it's something that is concerning, but i don't think anything in our lifetime. south africa is the most industrialized country on the continent. but the country itself has been going through electricity blackouts, meaning people are forced to change their phones and work study and light homes with candlelight. do you care with a electricity is generated from coal or from renewable energy sources? notice i don't know, i don't care. and i'm not worried at all, i'm just worried that if you any, it's just you know, like taking this or i could see we could look at the la times,

but we need to teams like on the real, like all this is to see is developing nations are rightfully agreed that western nations have developed very economy on carbon emissions, and they still continue to do so. the united states for 5 percent of the world's population still uses 25 percent of the world's resources. you out source production to china and then you said china is the carbon polluter. china's producing your buckets, china's producing nuts and bolts, china's producing your fornes, tried to produce it in your own countries and see your carbon emissions rise. you love lecturing us because you have a colonial mentality. 2.7000000000 people can't eat now and you're telling people reduce your consumption. how does this sound to a child who hasn't eaten in days? meanwhile, they hear for people on the ground. it also seems the very same wisdom. it is a delay developing countries,

the opportunity to do what they did for sanctions. and that is developed cannibal effects for our fee in china. arthur, joining us for this house program from moscow, of course, as arte international. as always so good. have your company will be back at the top of the hour with more of your saturday. well, with a wrong one, i'll just don't hold any world yet to shape out. disdain becomes the attitude and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground.

ah, the stories of ukrainian bio labs have been promoted by some and denounced as conspiracy theories by others. so what's the truth? today we're going to ask not only whether there are ukrainian bio labs, but are they funded by the united states government? i'm john kerry. aku and this is the whistleblowers. 2 2 2 2 2 amid the ongoing crisis in ukraine, the biden administration has passed of $48000000000.00 aid package for the war torn country, including billions of dollars and weapons that have already been sent to ukraine. according to a variety of reports, the president's son hunter has also arranged millions of dollars in financing for meta by yoda, a pentagon contractor that runs bio labs all across ukraine. there are claims the u

. s. government had secret bio chemical labs and ukraine since 2005 and conservative media outlets as well as pod casters have been accused of spreading russian propaganda and misinformation. by talking about this, and not only does ukraine have secret bio labs, toria, new ones said, whatever they're doing in those labs is so dangerous and so scary that she is, quote, quite concerned that the so called research material inside those bio labs might fall into the hands of russian forces is a matter of public record that there is work taking place in those areas. men, amity tubs are just like by a bio security biosafety bio surveillance ta sound. a bit like by a research labs might be part of it. then you add to the detail that there is concern. this is a conspiracy theory. here are the undeniable facts. there are 25 to 30 u. s. funded bio labs in ukraine. despite the emerging evidence of these by

a labs ukrainian president volota mirror zalinski, the white house and the state department, and the pentagon, have all unequivocally denied that these labs exist. after the all out denials, the pentagon then released the fact sheet about the government's efforts to less than the threat of weapons of mass destruction in ukraine, russia, and other former soviet countries. just to be clear, the official line from the pentagon is that biological research labs do exist, but that these labs are being used for strengthening public health measures. the pentagon has gone on to say, quote, the united states has also worked collaboratively to improve ukraine's biological safety, security, and disease surveillance for both human and animal health, providing support to $46.00 peaceful, ukrainian laboratories, health facilities and disease diagnostic sites. over the past 2 decades, unquote. so how did all of this come to light?

it was only months ago during a congressional hearing when under secretary of state, victoria nolan responded to sen, marco rubio, asking if ukraine had biological weapons. ukraine has biological research facilities which in fact we are now quite concerned russian troops, russian forces may be seeking to gain control of so we are working with the ukrainians. to explain this away, the state department says nolan was referring to ukrainian diagnostic and bio defense laboratories. during her testimony, and these are different from biological weapons facilities, and instead these bio defense labs, counter biological threats throughout the country. so it seems that the government is walking a very fine line here in these statements. on one hand, they said yes, there are labs, but on the other hand, no, they're not being funded by the united states. well,

when i was working at the cia working against iraq, one of the things i learned early on in my career was that if you wanted to create a bio lab, all you needed was a kitchen sink a refrigerator and a stove top. it's literally that easy, and it's that dangerous to understand just how dangerous these labs are. let's bring in the investigative journalist who is behind the very 1st report on these ukrainian bio labs, patrick laurence, a correspondence abroad for many, many years. chiefly for the international herald tribune. he's also a columnist and s a s author and lecturer, and he's currently writing for consortium news. patrick, it's good to see you, john. nice to see you again. your most recent book is called time no longer americans after the american century, you've done extensive research on all of these bio labs and we still know exactly what kind of research was taking place there and where the congressional oversight was. when a sitting us senator had to ask the most basic question about whether or not this

lab exists in the 1st place. what's your take on this? you know, where did someone under oh, does it? does, has very interesting effects on people we saw this when poor russia gates fiasco collapse in may 2020. so newly was under rows. she didn't have any choice. i don't think but to acknowledge these things. but look, we have to start here at this point, john knows better than i, a very, very extraordinary proportion of american government. american policy and american conduct abroad is not visible to us. so we have to work with what we know. and i come out here 30 odd labs in ukraine. the chinese kindly pointed out $330.00 or something

worldwide. what are these doing there? even if they are dedicated to the purposes, the government asserts, why are 30 laboratories in of, of, of a very dangerous nature is showing point out in a country as extraordinarily unstable and corrupt as ukraine. we have to start with that question, right? my, my very simple answer. we have little time is, these are part of these are part of the military strategy, a geo political strategy, and it's all about being in close proximity to russia. the distinction the government is trying to draw. i don't think we can put very much

space in that it seems to me that the government has done a good job so far in squelching what the truth is here. as soon as victoria nolan said there were bio labs in ukraine, the government put out the word that this was fake news and nothing more than a conspiracy. but that wasn't accurate, was it? yeah, i mean, an info. but right under way after that that testimony, anyone who recalls it will, will, will remember. it was quite shocking. again, she was under roast. if it wasn't, i doubt we would have got as much as we got out of the tory new. yeah, i mean, so far as i understand, john, correct me if i wrong the russians don't have any bio labs or they don't have any biological weapons program. they renown installed some years ago. right. when the post soviet union or in the later days of the soviet union. so they have to

account for what these are doing. and they give us the flimsy, the flimsy descriptions that we've already discussed. i don't buy them. right. another point i want to urge people to think about 330 of these around the world. why? what are they doing? my answer to that is it's a question of deployment of the what, what comes out of these labs is needless to say is very dangerous. and easily mishandled to catastrophic effects. i think these labs around the world and i still astonish 330 of them. i think the labs around the world are strategically placed as part of a us government strategy.

wherein biological weapons are a part of where they are a part of it and they are an unacknowledged part of it. that's where i come out. it's very depression, u. s. government officials who try to downplay these revelations, tell us that this is really no big deal. because there are bio labs all over the world. should that make us feel any better? not me, john. no, any bio lab presumably would be the home of a whole number of pathogens in the course of your own research. what did you find when it comes to safety and security? can we trust governments, or can we trust the american government to keep the public safe? when these labs are literally all over the place, sometimes in dangerous areas are volatile areas like war zones. no, i mean no, in fairness i have not been in ukraine. i haven't done any research on the ground

by way of safety and security. but i will say this putting of bio lab in ukraine seems to me the equivalent of building a nuclear reactor in japan is just the wrong place for this kind of activity. again, we really must ask, what are they doing in of all places? ukraine? even if we took the government's explanation for this, why are they in ukraine? why are they in austria or germany, patrick? can i also ask you what you think the solution is for all this? i know that we are calling for more transparency to find out the truth. how do you think we go about doing that? i mean, hundreds of these bio labs are all over the world. and obviously the government is regulating these or 3rd party contractors or regulating these bio labs. what do we

do? well, i think we're doing our bit right here. we need to talk to talk about this. we need to bring your viewers and into, into the picture as very best we can. but i've already suggested my idea of a solution. this has to be brought up in the security council and other such for so that governments with the power to act on the truth of this, it can move forward. i've, i've been very pleased 1st of all the chinese jumped in right away and said well it's not just 30. this is post newland. it's not just 30 and ukraine is 3. i think that number 336 around the world. and pleased once again is there persisting on this the russians to i think that's really, that's the forward edge of this. in my view, patrick lawrence,

investigative journalist and author, thank you so much for joining us today. aside from the question of whether the labs exist, which they most certainly appear to, there's also the question of the legality and fx behind bio labs. when we come back, we'll speak with a noted human rights attorney and law professor about the legality of these bio labs, especially the ones that are in war zones and without appropriate oversight. stay to. 2 2 ah, ah ah, ah, a spoke

with edison both, both the models you need to do with a, a form of a a with a personal number here that we're talking

with what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation. let it be an arms race, movies on there in dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time. time to sit down and talk. 2 2 2 ah, welcome back to the whistle blowers, i'm john curio. today we're looking at ukrainian bio labs and how much the united states knew about them or even participated in their research. but there are other questions that we have to explore as well,

including questions about the ethics of having bio research labs in an active warrant zone. let's bring in francis boil. francis is a professor of international law at the university of illinois. professor boil thanks for joining us. you have a long personal history as a human rights attorney and professor of international law. help us understand the ethics of these bio labs, who's responsible for them, for example, who pays for them and who's responsible for their oversight? or john, let me say this for the purpose of this discussion. ah, i was the person who called for and drafted the united states domestic implementing legislation for the biological weapons convention of 1972 the biological weapons, any terrorist merit of 1989. that was passed unanimously by both

houses of the united states congress and signed into law by president george bush, senior with the approval of the united states department of justice. now that call was 1985 to legislation, 1989. what precipitated my call here was the fact that the reagan administration and its neoconservatives had begun to abuse dna genetic engineering for the research development testing and stockpiling. a biological warfare weapons in violation the biological weapons convention. and i figured that if i made the domestic implementing legislation, it would make this a crime under united states law. and i put in there the penalty of life imprisonment. the department of justice repeatedly tried to get me to include the

death penalty but. but since i'm going to pull the death penalty, i refused. and i regret to say that this is what we're seeing over there in, in ukraine. ah, the, the u. s. biological warfare weapons programs that have been going on consistently since the reagan administration in violation of biological weapons convention. and i regret to report despite my best efforts in bio in violation of my biological weapons, anti terrorist act of 1989 that provides for life imprisonment. remember john, the pile warfare labs were set up and funded under the auspices of the pentagon, the department of war, the pentagon is not a humanitarian agency. and from every thing i have read being

produced in the public record. yes, john, it does seem to me, ah, that the pentagon here, the d t r a, was involved in the research development testing stockpiling of biological warfare weapons at these labs and ukraine. not all bio labs are the same. in fact, these labs range from level one to level for labs, correct? that is correct. and we have the most dangerous is b s, l 4 followed by b s l 3. i think they put a, b s, l 3 there in odessa. and you have to understand that the only purpose of a b s, l 3 and a b s l for is to research, develop a test and stockpile biological weapons. there is no judgement,

scientific, or medical reason for lamps of that nature. and again, remember, these labs in ukraine were set up by the department of war. they were not set up by somebody humanitarian organization. the pentagon kills people. and the pentagon has been involved openly and publicly in research development cast of illegal biological warfare weapons, since at least the reagan administration. you could read this in my book of bio warfare and terrorism, where i have a line by line criticisms of the pentagons original biological defense research program, pointing out line by line that it was offensive and clearly illegal. not yet criminal at that time because my, my statute has not,

not kicked in were told that these bio labs are essentially designed so that research can be safely conducted there. the people working in the labs can work with some of the most dangerous pathogens on the planet. there are bio research labs in 23 different countries with the largest concentration in europe. but there are also labs across north america, asia, australia, and africa. with so many labs spread out across the world and something especially dangerous places. do you think that we can trust the governments to keep the public safe? of course not take all week our own for dietrich leaks, which is a b s l for indeed. today in the fredericksburg meter, you will see the ground contamination there for dietrich 4 because they're involved in biological warfare, weapons research, they clearly as illegal and criminal case all weeks, every one of them. and this is well know what happened is that the reagan

administration got involved with re involved in the office of development, biological warfare, weapons. and it's set off a biological all, we're all friends of biological warfare arch, race around the world. and so we have older advanced military powers of developing biological warfare weapons china, russia, the nicole with 90 leaked out of there will be s l 4 and the university of north carolina b. s l 3 helped develop coal with 90. i have a new book on that called resisting medical charity that has all the documentation in there. so 1st there's nothing safe about these b s, l threes and be a cell force. indeed, if you are interested,

there is an award winning documentary by coal and meddler called anthrax wars on the dangers of b. s l 3 z b or sell fours. i was a consultant to them on that. i was in there and i said, this is a humanitarian catastrophe. waiting to have that was 2009 and, and it did happen to be her cell for but, but despite the propaganda line, they are setting out they're doing research. now you are examined several of the websites and programs at these b s l reason b s l force. they are all involved in every type of hideous nazi biological warfare work you can possibly imagine taking every type of exotic disease they care and seeing if they can weapon. i'm sure that's what's really going on here. it

is not legitimate scientific research. it is not legitimate medical research, it is warfare research that, that is clue, illegal, and criminal, undermine biological weapons. any terrorists make the least for us citizens involved in this work. if we can't trust the pentagon to conduct proper and appropriate oversight, if we can't trust congressional oversight committees to conduct oversight, who can we trust then? is there any international body that can watch a program like this and make sure that terrible things don't happen? well, i said the only appropriate thing now with this point is to shut down every b s l 3 b s l or in the world. no, i mean the re, a bolton under bush junior, sabotaged a verification protocol for the biological weapons convention.

it's dead as a doornail and not going anywhere. ah, the international atomic energy agency has been co opted up by the united states government. that's clear. the chemical weapons convention organization has also been co opted by the united states government. so are we, we really can't trust those organizations to supervise anything. so i've argued going back to anthrax war that then 2009, we must shut down every, be ourselves, re and be yourself or in the war. as for trusting the pentagon, excuse me, a job really, but he, that's the joke or the day right. ah, what can i say about that? well, important analysis from professor francis boil. thank you so much, professor boyle. and that's our report for today. i'm john curiosity and i'll see you again next week on the whistleblowers. ah.

2 2 2 2 2 ah, move out so thing wrong when i just don't want you to see how this thing becomes the advocate, an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah legally i'm so glad they ship that get what is the best time with them? this is a little bit of

a complicated with what i say school car with net port backwards but some same. yeah. it's not that much gimme a port to me cut order the steps a which it it said to jeff, so i knew the minimum is gone, can be comma a and b come last somebody mp community that the comma a lovely knob is all supposed to start out the keys affected door only out of that too. i didn't need it with us. that's clear. but but then what's the routing just leaving it right. nobody for you to post is looking at them during the summer because i see that it was with chris. will it was, it was the case was up there,

then your big us over for you will go that they should receive a notice to pick up and that were still a little bit below vanessa. getting up with something with the headlines allowed to use the national one about cruise joins russian troops on the front line in the ukrainian conflict. soldiers tell us there are many foreign lawson aries among cubes for the family of palestinian american journalists fatally shot while covering west bank protest in may demand justice at the un actually accusing israel deliberately targeting the reporter. so we speak to the brother of the late in the black even when she was gonna want to keep her we were trying to hold.