i don't give easy investigations were too often handled differently because the decease was indigenous. so many of the worst criminals got away the bishop's got away. the ones we've done most of the damage never got charged. ah, ah hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . nato is hybrid war against russia just became more dangerous and frightening. a missile fired from ukraine by ukrainians landing, and poland clearly demonstrates what can go wrong due to her mistake or miscalculation. of course, the collective west instantly move towards invoking article 5 of the nato treaty,

which means starting world war 3. i cross sucking dangerous times. i'm joined by my guess, anthony kevin in australia. he's a former australian career diplomat, an ambassador to poland and cambodia in brussels. we have gilbert doctorow. he's an independent political analyst and author of memoirs of an ex pat manager in moscow during the 1990s. and in belgrade we have james, generous. he's a former u. s. diplomat and former advisor to u. s. senate republican leadership or a gentleman, cross psych rules. in fact, that means he can jump any time you want and i always appreciated gilbert. let me go to you 1st and brussels. what a week it is already been. we have this fiasco with a missile being fired that they landed in poland. of course, every we got one goes on edge, but you know, i've been talking about this ever since the started the conflict and actually

before and i've always and many other people have predicted exactly a situation like this, the could get out of control. unfortunately, gilbert, there seemed to be people that wanted to go to the next step. this is where we are in very dangerous times. thankfully, a number of people have set taken a step back away from the brink. your thoughts on this situation? gilbert. what happened this week looks very much like a false flag operation in which russia would be hold out inside the world, in this particular case, in front of nato. as they would enter into talks about invoking article for abrupt stephen, article 5, it looked very much like a false flag operations, one like false flag operations that had been in the recent past. and i would go back here to the next 17 of what to the false flag and syria over alleged chemical attacks by the bunch, not the regime. the issue here

was stopped in its tracks by the united states. that tells us a couple of things when the president biden, a few hours after news of this missile strike. and poland told reporters that he had reason to believe that russia was not behind it. that changed the game. this is the 1st time in any such potential force flag operation with the states has been one to pull the plug in at all and to say that it has the reconnaissance information, right? that cruise for that, troops to their satisfaction that the missile was not fired from russia. similar recognizance information surely was available for the mh 17 but was not put him to play. but back then, the issue was one of the, a simply propaganda war. information war just created russia and to bring in new

sanctions. if this particular for swag proceeded, implications were far more dentist stating it would since russia and denied to join states. nato are in a proxy war, it will escalate it into a real war, which has just logical conclusion, a nuclear exchange. ok, every, we saw the united states step back, which it hasn't done in the past. they had the united states use the information that it was available to state because the russians were not responsible cuts or dramatic change. and so critical, hopeful change. well, let me go to anthony in australia. hopefully, maybe this could be a trend because we have had 10 months of this horrific propaganda. one sided narrative and, and what happened this week if you go up to the brain care and this is the nightmare that you know, going back to dr. strange of if you will, i agree with gilbert that you know that it was good that the us took a step back. but if we look at everything over the last few months,

encouraging the zelinski regime to do, do these or get involved in these kinds of affairs. i mean there has to be some lessons learned from that. your thoughts, gilbert? i'm sorry, anthony. in australia. i agree with skill, but that was a very dangerous moment. i don't necessarily agree with him that it was delivered, false flag crimes. i think lensky has a bit of a habit of being highly irresponsible. irrational mess. i think he opportunistically tried in his usual way to take advantage of what was a military mistake on the part of the criterion. and he a craft miss launches who sent it off in the direction of poland, which was obviously not what they intended to do. and the last few opportunistically thought, well, you know, let's, let's try and make

a out of this. and he failed. and i think it's really important that as gilbert says that the united states and this means that from the spell has been broken. and i will says little boy, scribe will too often think something changed in the way in which the west now thinks about lindsey. yeah, well well we'll see with this lame dot congress if they're going to give 37600000000 more dollars. we'll see if that happens or james, i mean, can you explain something to me? you have zalinski and his gang wanting to do everything in their power to have a good nature when to a hot war with russia. it's a proxy war with russia now, but get into a hot war. ukraine doesn't come out very well and in a hot war, does it? can you explain to me why they're so keen on it go ahead in belgrade work? well, let's be clear that the is the lensky regime and that's what i would want to call. it doesn't really care about the gradient, people about ukraine. they're the voice of hysterical russel phobia that,

that really only defines their costs of the crane in opposition to russia. and by any means necessary, they will, if they can drive the western powers into this war, i don't think it's time to the champagne corks. yes, that the west has begun. the road wake up about what kind of danger awaits them if they allow zalinski and his crowd to drag us in. but it is encouraging. i saw a piece in the financial times recently that some of there's some constant consternation among nato governments that they believe the ukrainians are lying to them. they're not playing straight with them. and whether it was deliberate or inadvertent that dismissal ended in poland. i think some of them are belatedly starting to see the danger that they're in and on top of everything else. i don't think this is the kind of shenanigans we see from a country that believes in is winning this war with, despite all the propaganda that ukrainians are winning the russian pullback from prayer song and so forth. it's pretty clear that the gradients are, i think,

reaching the end of the road. yeah. all gilbert, i mean it's something that i've said many times in this program in this context of this conflict. they, the party that escalates means that's the party that's losing ok. and the party that is losing will use as much propaganda and, and change the narrative as much as possible in its favor. thoughts, gilbert? well, in the, in the west, in mainstream media. the notion that ukraine is losing is out of play. the story you were here on the b, b, c, that every one of the news, their news hours or on your own news is that ukraine is winning and the spirit is strong. and on the contrary, the russian army, which has a morale problem. now the best that can be said is that the media are telling us that a winter is coming, and as the war will wind down. and this is a good time for negotiations, why exactly russia would want to enter into negotiations at this point when. so

then sky adamantly opposed. here's another question, but the likelihood is quite different from what the expectations of readers of western media would find. the likelihood is the russians will go on the counter offensive in the middle of winter, which is the logic of their 220000 soldiers were finishing their, their training for this effort. these are reservists who aren't inducted for indefinite period to sit in trenches. there. war will continue and the russians will smash ukraine. and i think general milly understands that that is why they were voices in washington now, calling for negotiations. not because it's, it's a good point particularly, but because they know the lot worse is to come for ukraine after the new year. yeah . well, anthony, i don't want to sound like put too much of a hard line or but if they're in negotiations and as far as i can see,

it's ukraine. the negotiations were ukraine to surrender, to avoid what gilbert just said, go ahead, anthony. pretty much the question is the longer the fanatics in p f, keep the sing going more territory and like the cry and risks losing permanently. and i want to mention this continuing attack on the cranium power grid because it's, it's absolutely crucial bullish. i mean, at the moment it's minus 7 in level the wolf has lost 80 percent of it had our peers has lost something like 67 or 70 years and this can't go on much longer. and the point is the ration right. continuing, not stopping. and the ukrainians have no effective way of stopping these very, which actually targeted missiles which caused almost no casualty, by the way, hitting their targets and simply destroying anthony if i could just if i could just

jump in here before we get to the break here. so this $37000000000.00 the by the ministration wants to say, is that going to change the electricity grid and ukraine anytime soon? no, no, i mean you can, you can import all the weapons you want, but if you haven't got electric power, he can't do very much with them. i think ukraine is going to collapse really quite quickly. the war effort is going to collect really quite quickly. lensky crew left floundering around desperately. what? what i did in valley was desperate failed. everything is failing. i think it's going to unravel for you right and come together for russia, rather weekly. okay, let me get a james here. 40 seconds before the break here, but ukraine is winning. what's wrong with all of us all this program, james? go ahead. 40 seconds before we go to the break. but to tell you here in the balkans, i hear a lot of concern from my serbian friends that russia not fall into the trap that

they fell into in the 1990 s, where every time they had a military advantage they'd stop as they are. now let's move on toward a degree minutes, have a cease fire. let's negotiate in good faith and then found out that those, those, that, that was not a good faith from the other side. and i, you know, the russians need to think seriously about this, that when they do have the advantage, will they press the advantage where they stop and talk to their western partners of no intention of keeping any promises? yeah, well i think they have learned that lesson here. and i think if you look at the rhetoric that is coming out of russia is that they, they pretty much know the score and who they're dealing with here. and that's exactly what we're going to talk about when we come back from our break. gentlemen, i'm jumping in here, we're getting out of which our break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on dangerous time stamp with archie, with

the election for almost completely removed from day to day launch the american people and so on. the american people, i believe, if provided good information left to their own devices, we're trying to on far more recent foreign conclusions than are coming to about world events. right? ah, now you will get it stippling bucket. nancy, nancy, in urban group. kim's in a book that probably initial she, they did fuel showcase in under nathaniel, that sounds good. it's a why is it abs will ah,

ah, redeem on that noon? that would be what am in my chair at the water doesn't want that extra mom, but i know it's a minute or so welcome back to cross ok. we're all things considered. i'm peter labelle, to remind you we're discussing dangerous times with . okay, let's go back to gilbert's in brussels. a staying with this incident happened this week. here. it seems to me the, the, the zelinski regime and it's backwards. they wanted to achieve 2 things. number one,

i'm not necessarily world war 3, but to keep the coalition of the so called willing together because it's beginning to fray huh. in winter setting in, in western europe to not just in ukraine and also to keep the spirit on, keep the money flowing because everyone know, we don't know what the next congress is going to do. i have very little faith in republicans, but you know, they do have they, they will have charge of the purse. will they start thinking about how much money they're going to spend to you to ukraine instead of a denying it to american families, we will see. so it basically keep the coalition of the willing together and keep the money flowing that, that, that did serve its purpose here. go ahead gilbert. well, you're really accounts for nothing. europe, as a follower, had best. you saw what happened in the initial reaction to the missile strike and poems. the baltic states immediately seized on this as sound and they sounded like

loud speakers for kids. they were calling for invocation of, of article 5. they were naming russia direct these responsible. but give me hang on gilbert, you but i want to unpack what you just said here. so we have the baltic states calling for the. so if there is a hot war between nato and the boss thinks paid to the 1st the go, i mean, i, again, i don't understand the rationality of these people that are so anxious to have a hot military conflict with russia. can you explain it? well, again, the same issue was brought up by my fellow talent analysts that mister zelinski does not, is not concerned about the ukrainian people, is only concerned about this ideological war on russia and new identity for ukraine . the same is true of the baltic states and several other states in what were formerly warsaw pact, countries. the leadership in these countries was installed. but then i had staged

in almost as stage managed to weigh as ministers against his predecessors. in february, 2014 were installed in data. they are american agents. not some of them have american citizenship. well yes it is. so for them to line, they all were prepared for the roles they now enjoy. they are serving the united states. they are given. busy honors and importance in european affairs that far outweighs their economic, or cultural or any other dimension. you want to measure importance to europe. so they are they are jackals. it's interesting that they were snubbed and stood and sucked out at once when mister bite and said what he did about this not being a firing by a missile by, by brush it and go back to your question. what will happen in europe? europe will follow what united states tells europe to do,

and any differences and cleavages that we see in your, between france and germany and germany in the baltics are all into whatever. these are insignificant, they will not lead to a change in the situation in the east west confrontation, the change the situation will be in washington depending on, as you say, the political calculus, domestic politics, calculus in the united states. when the price of this becomes to be considering the other demands on the, on the federal budget and when the rational rationality and the truth coming out of ts is, is questioned further in a way to even the financial times. questioning today, as jim said, we go back to australia, anthony, i mean the again, you know, one of the things i keep stressing ever since is complex started than if people want to talk about negotiations and diplomacy. well, no, we had

a whole lot of that before february 24th. ok. russia sent out it's the security demands to nato into the united states. very clearly stated what they want. there's not going to be any negotiations and diplomacy if those issues are not met. okay, because i think all of us in agreement here, the zalinski crowd doesn't care much about ukraine. russia is gone and protected its own co, no russian speakers. and then you know, the united states. well, that's just a, you know, a casino for them and a whole lot of corruption. i would say, you know, but russia is this going to say, look, we told you what we want and that those things haven't really changed or can the west washington and london come to grips with the fact that all russia has security interest as well. go ahead and australia will. busy there's a total difference in town coming out of moscow since the 24th of february and

really the difference in time started about a month ago. and now we've got a very, very hard headed roster indeed. looking, looking at the west, very coldly, keeping in touch with the west, there's dialogue going on at the level of ben's and the level of through shift to his opposite number in washington. so those 2 dialogues are going on. c, i a and national security level dialogues and, but they're 2 different quality all together. i think roger is now basically laying an to washington saying you've lost, it's going to get worse and worse for long. you go on supporting the lunatic and just cut your losses and get out as quickly as you can. and it's just a question of how quickly that message gets through washington. that's why i don't know how quickly the flow in, but i have a feeling. it's going to end russia more quickly, the, when the pessimists think,

james, i tend, i tend to agree with anthony. your thoughts, james? yes, just a footnote on what you asked peter regarding congress to the republicans, whether by fair means or foul did not as well in these elections. he had a thought they might, but even if they had, it really would have changed march, even though you might get a few more trumpet populace who by can consider the wisdom of wars like this, the republican leadership. and i remember i worked that in, in that context for 17 years republican leadership is thoroughly controlled by a neoconservative outlook on the world. if anything, they're more critical of the democrats for not being supportive enough of ukraine and not being hostile enough to adopt to russia. they may grouse a little bit about, oh, this account for the spending where's all the money going and so forth. and even that just window dressing, so i don't expect my change in that order. the only way this is going to change from washington is and maybe the financial times indic where was a little bit of an indication of that, that even some of the,

the people have been proponents of us war for a very long time. at some point, get to the edge of a really severe conflict that would be a not capable of containment, and they stand up with the edge, look down the best and say, oh boy, we better pull back from that. they haven't reached that point yet. i hope they will, if, as we expect there is, as you say, i think i that i think very strong russian offensive coming up with this winter. well, gilbert, how does, after all of the investment in the investment, in every sense of the term, how does the west them gracefully lose this one? ok, can they, or will they continue to up the ante? will they continue to escalate? because the way it's framed in the west is this is x is that we have to fight him over there before the if we fight over here. ok, which is completely idiotic. ok. but that's how it's framed. ok. how do you walk away from that gilbert? walk away? they will, i wouldn't worry about it. now the world didn't end with united states. and that's

kinda what we see. no. on on television is constant repetition, the same mantra, the ukraine is doing well when we all know it isn't doing well. and they will find a way to cover up the loss. the same roads and discussion with journalists, which the end of the pentagon said russia, ukraine, can possibly muster the force to send the russians out of its territory. he also opened that discussion with the remark that the russians can possibly take over all the ukraine or willingness war. so they will find a way to, to explain what happens as being after all the russians didn't, when it walk away. you guys, i think, i think guilford's absolutely. right. you know, well, they get the somehow, no matter what the outcome is, if there's a change in care of whatever it still russia lost is conflict. that's how they're

going to do it. because essentially, that's all their message is, is a narrative and propaganda, anthony. yeah. if i could come in there, i think russia will, will help america find a soft landing going america does decide that it's going to cut the losses and stuff supporting the landscape in any serious way. the russia has a lot of options. i mean, they may not be cation and the militarization of ukraine. there are many, many ways to skin that cat many, many ways. and it doesn't have to involve roger occupying the house or a tribute, right? it might involve some form of raising change. it might simply involve the weakening of p s, for example, depriving it of because from strip it was completely new to the crimes potentially the security threat director and is a blush that has been stripped permanently and was left with her. you know, an agrarian, northwestern rough country. so i mean,

russia will help america find a soft landing. i think that was the james. i'm look, i'm really glad that anthony said that because the it would be in rushes, national interest to do that actually. ok. i know every, the western media likes to keep everything is binary. you're not agreeing, james, go ahead. i do not agree at all. okay. and, and i think that sort of thinking is very dangerous to the russians. that is wanting to walk away from afghanistan is wanting for the, for net to west nato, especially the united states, which is nato. to walk away from this because that means that the whole purpose of data russians out, americans in germans down, will be shown up to be a paper tiger. the emperor with no clothes at that point, the in global american empire that we've seen since the end of the 1st cold war is over. this is an existential struggle for washington, not for the american people, not for the united states as a normal state, but for this,

this global empire that we've made, they basically major fortunes on in bed, all their forces on for decades. they cannot easily give this up. maybe this provocation was not the right one. maybe some people are starting to get some cold t here, but i would not count them out yet. and this is where i didn't get back to what my serbian friends are saying here. the russians for their sake, from their point of view, if they want to be seduced about letting their enemies off easy, not humiliating them. i think that's a very dangerous thinking for them. from their point of view, in my opinion, if i were in their shoes, they had to press for a military victory via be aware of the dangers of the other side will pull up its dirty tricks like they did in syria, or in bosnia and other places we're not out of the woods here yet by any means. that's right. and the, the me victory would be in my mind, the end of nato. that would be a 1st good step. generate. great, that's all time we have. i want to thank my guessing in australia, bell, great, and in brussels, i want to take our viewers for watching us here to see you next time. remember

prospect rules ah ah, in to the team's holdings luncheon coffee shop with, i'll go to knowing look, well for a job or am i would hope that i was still getting letters that i can see and found gas prices stuff. i started going on gas with north, from phoenician retrieval. i'm lucas, i was already taken from the put a ticket. want to see you this keep kind of identity even so it was a show, belief with she will not cooperate

with it is good, prescriptive reason. oscar, she'll know shepherd got a picture for sure. do you remember new vin? sure. hold. do you see a whole lot just assume you're just dropping in. ah, ah oh,

i did my down 2014, neo nazis roy's to the extermination of ukraine's russian speaking population. ideas of confrontation between 2 ideologies and as a consequence, the start of brushes, special military operation for this chain of events inevitably shape the difference. equally important front in dumbasses,

struggle for independence. one of which poets and musicians stand shoulder to shoulder with another thought that the one with them but more of a truck to the plot. thank you. i did a motion is required to be watching. well once you get mama, mama, mama, home with.