connection between his age and he has promised us to rejuvenate both and brazil's economy and society. you know, i don't, i was there 1st in the ration because they were part of the government. i was part of the team and i, i haven't followed him because now in china and i see the same far the same energy they wish to make a difference. what we need to call attention is that when we start monday, 2003, generally the problem was i will think this institution where we're now a lot of the crime related to, for the situation, was not very good. we've been through a lot of economics or oils and i think he's back to the same point for bringing i was in the government of review for 30 years and seeing everything that you have done and it didn't work very hard. now was one big case in the house to go

back is a very, very hard to age. and so i think despite his age using, i would say, you know, prior to change everything. and i think also to be part of the brazil i thought, and he also seems to be in a very good chain. before we discuss the particulars of brazilian life or american politics. let me ask you one more question about age because it's not just in brazil, but in many other countries. the united states, china, turkey, russia, to name just a few. we have tried and tested leaders, people who are roughly 70 years of age, who, who, who had been in politics for quite some time. and he and then now tasks with navigating countries through very fast change is how do you explain that phenomena? because generally we think about older people as not very adaptable. i

need to know it's a 3 question why? because now. ringback i support that need to renovate the need to bring in people be. ringback we need because we have a governance problem in the lo look called the my team, the cries, isn't there climate change so we don't find them there. so maybe the generation that is on the back. ringback ration we 6 year olds, be our last train or, or we feared the whole thing, the condition that jar. so people be like joe by then president, she, president lula. we people that they trust that didn't where we pass. so i read that he's a psychological element, but our i and a mentor who nation all those that need to have more.

i'm a more. ringback i'll go to teaching cracks. i think our neither ship we're not changing. so. so let me call me that we need to deal with because the, the biggest, the a problem like my home or like if you there, for farmer, they are not, there were the, they told they would be, as you pointed out in one of your articles, recently as a brazilian citizen, you feel happy and that western democracy still works at least and used to have in latin america. that sounds very cheeky. do you mean to imply that in other parts of america a vesting democracy doesn't work? yeah. what do you play that the goals that we can get? the peoplesoft will be here, but what is the concept of western democracy? right?

the majority you choose, the leaders, the keys are not to say that the majority need does not to the leaders because the majority of the former last president, trump was not that much the majority to the dealer in nor pm. so in other places around the western i'm here we have for example, if we go to europe and we see the both be prime interest or all the england, some right, there are elected with 20 percent of the hope of the nation. so these does not go toward the concept that we like to move in west and gave a brazil death an exhibit. the colonial is an exemplary that he's a max equal the majority. ringback of the relation that has both and that's my point. that's my point. you know, a couple of years ago i myself had a chance to interview president lula, and he said at that time,

i think it was 2900 probably that he had no doubt about the support for him among the common folks. but he was complaining that the brazilian ruling class can do anything without 1st consulting with the united states. so essentially, many of the decision and his view and that time where our source to the decision maker is in washington. do you think that is still in a problem in brazil, and if so, how do you think you should address it? so i think that's her mother discussion in terms of how locking america being modern economic right. we had for some time, depending on the amount of space is not to say dependence, but we have either recommendation. so when you were talking about the right wing or the nominal denique in latin america, they came from united states they're, they've green, achieved. but i think it's not only not i think we have this in different countries,

even in russia, we know a good part of the russian board or doing the strike home and the united states in other we even in china. so because there's not a marketing dreaming place, so i mean the matcher often america to have that because you are a cool. so president who was worried that we try to americanize policy lunch. so in the case of a fair number, that's what the nation we have, what we call direct alignments with paul if that comes from washington, not only from the washington, but even later on in our view, the president, all of you with the lack of latin america we need to negotiate, why need to respect the maybe if you're be or is more cuz we need to be in the same level. and that's what the person who is going to fight for. that's what latin

america is, the one who we are not the backyard of united states. you're not the jago who we are neighbor and we need to respect each other. now, as you pointed out, miss louis victory, the 6 largest economies in latin america, brazil, mexico, argentina, chile, colombian, peru now governed by the left, his body's not counting other countries like cuba, and believe in doris, who have had that trajectory for quite some time now and the person who was born and the thought of union, and i think was conditioned to sort of be somewhat shameful of my country's socialist pass. i want to ask you, specifically, how do you think the left of the 21st century will be different from the last of the 20th century and are there any last them that have to be kept in the, in the front of politicians line? i think the good news for the less use that me understand that won't change and

wrap. ringback social movements, they change wrap before when we are talking about last you were talking about it, you know, make more than when will need more. many people talk now about not about the normal model, meaning we're going to be capitalism. but how we go through the prevention of my point here when we are talking last the last in america use that we. ringback want to challenge capitalism is not the point for the lack of latin america. we weren't change gap. that's a little different. why? because we know that these states even cow marks. when he was writing, he started writing about capitalism. he was not writing about kobinie as well. so there is a promotion in that process. so the most important part of the last is that the

capital is me like in america, because is the developing region. what, what we call wildcat. so money by money is the most important so you get the life of the so. ringback the last lap in american there stand that we need to teach and you can work in a system that's the 1st to be care off. so we need to send there in order to have more than is ation of the colony digitization climate issue. so all these, i think the last, the not to discuss and that's why we, as you cited, we have the majority, the latin american people, they know when come on, that is their care for the people, not the whole money. but you also suggested in your writing and then you turn to the left has an international dimension. you suggested that present luna lula can formulate a joint plan for developing countries in this new era?

and it's an interesting thing to think about because over the last couple of decades, the developed world excelled in offering various developmental frameworks to the 3rd world. countries, the frameworks that more often than not we're used to serve the benefactor rather than beneficiary. do you think brazil and other countries will be able to resist that temptation to plunder the the weaker side and the do you think they will succeed in being fair and measure in the way they share the ideology or the economy with others? yeah, i'm not sure if we're going to succeed because then that the world, the war. ringback but, but even going to fight, because when you're fighting for these elements, we are fighting, not for me as,

as we are fighting for people. we have more than 3 point one being the people leaving the hell is a large proportion of these, the even more aware years in the are doing, you seem to see to ation. in her important point, we never had such a. ringback knology and the cord. wow. any you we korean hunger, the director general, the general united nation who is doing do nation open in new york. he made sure that out of the 7 gene. as the g g 's, sustainable develop go, we did that. she was not here where she and you know, again this is, this is the data we have there, robert, the asian, who is

a climate change for me to develop. so we do have a problem. we have a minor problem here off taking a short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned for me. i know it's not anybody. wow. give easy while for the oh yeah. oh yeah, it's a fun slide yet. if south. yeah. thrash them a so there was actually

a new dock. awesome. but you know, watch them the pool. mutable. upright people is emily up a little video from julia's kim's room. she thought that it was the ella, a vehicle. that's my vote or to an invalid. again, your fortune pretty up my be a lot about it with ah hm. mm welcome back to was a 4th with alessandra columbia, the sheriff, professor of public policy as in cross university school of public policy and

management. professor i, as you mentioned that before then. reg, are you how many high ranking positions within the brazilian government before taking on teaching and yet given your very expensive practical and academic expertise in economics, i wonder if your understanding of how global economy functions, how it succeeds and how it falters hasn't changed in any way or would the last couple of months because for many countries i think that many countries were exposed to things that they believed were impossible before. no, i think vertical i need, that is, i will say 2 decades in politics. derek will review and international missions. we're understand the boucher of the we're going to be we understand the of the bush and understand that we need to understand who should of human be and that's the

society are several people so. so that's the most important in, before the break and we're finding that we have many problems in the problem has been raising like climate change, like it's damaged. then like harvard e like hunger in those problems and that's why they are not. we have a single solution, so we can say i can solve that problem. no, we need to have collected leadership. and that's what i keep missing. we have sensors. everybody is more or the size of capitalism, the visual, the option. but we need to understand that we don't get out of damage. we've changed climate change or better if we work together. it's not worth needs to be action. and that's. ready now,

you pointed in one of your articles that because the west to believe in the industrial revolution and because it led the transformation from national history into world history, people around the world till time to see westernization as, as synonymous with modernity. despite the fact that i would actually have produced many of the problems that you actually cited right now, and that brought humanity on, on the cost of this ecological and konami disaster. now, how long do you think the world will subscribe to this notion that despite everything the west still knows what's best for their wrath? why thank you very quickly. we're going to see the next 5 years or so. asia, for example. ringback already we 4045 percent of the didn't we we, china already as a 2nd to the. ringback world, there is going to be countries that you never heard that you use the weapon,

haven't heard like nisha, malaysia borgia yet. now people they go have in our culture, especially not married. and we don't know very much. what do you know? and i always like that you, brazil, even nice, cause we've almost more than 200000000 people. and they are called over by 7007000. and they are now the leader of the 24th year. so we need to get the nation malaysia over 200000000 people. so, so that's very border and they have a different perspective. they have different laws. we tell that he's what we think, and that is a lot of discussion about the clash of civilizations. you know, we think where is the western civilization used americans because the north americans lived like brazil was remember always,

that's very bored. the united states in brazil where this go over by the real, being in the, for the end of the parking has their own being. they discover america by and not by mistake, but because they want to go around dirt ish area. they pine the also money pyre because they will go where the china, the media to the 3. so we are talking with people like, yeah, like china, 3005000 years. actually, knowledge this professor don't respect the, i think the way the americans or the westerners want to do business now is a little bit differ and then it was a and those historic times. and one could argue that the global economy, as it exists today, or at least as it was envisioned, is sort of based on this idea that the west will provide the rest of the world with technology. finance is while getting in return consumer goods and natural

resources. and i think one can argue with. c reliance on data that western companies or western countries often use that dominant position to secure better prices, cheaper prices for themselves. so you know, using your analogy or with the colonization, it was always a little bit of a glass beads for gold exchange. do you think the west, the western economist can sustain themselves by themselves without this, in build on their exchange or in build does balance. lo, i'm thinking i did that historically explanation because that's what here. but if you, even if you're talking about them largest, thank you. won't you nation financial system, at least $5.00 to $6.00? our chinese you're talking about large corporations, let's say picking ology companies. what we call unicorn is that the order would be

and we have, let's say $4500.00 was the won't. we have more than 100 chinese so, so i said the bottom of the column, these gang out from the west of the corner, this to the asian. and that is the change. there is a change. how to business there is that change your culture. there's a lot of change. so for example, one of the elements say like the thought, you know, let's say i think i'm a logical platform for the big knock. if you go to see if you go america team or everybody, you know, body or very few people know that little chinese and you start in charge. so these things changing and we will change because these ages because we be going to leave knowledge going to lead you production and they were leaving the service for me. ringback or change it and that's why united states in europe are so concerned with

china. that's why you have not the commercial. i see the logical sanction by the leadership so. so that's not very important for us. now, you mentioned that they are very concerned that i think that's a very diplomatic term, perhaps owning to your experience in the international negotiations. but they seem to be pretty aggressive when it comes to dealing with china. and i don't know if you've seen it. the german magazine spiegel recently published a drop copy of germany strategies of china, which explicitly states that they will give the priority to human rights issues. and the way they defined human rights issues, to economic cooperation and in their interpretations when it comes to human rights, there could be no cultural or religious relativity that you are talking about. they insist only on diet trig vision of how it's supposed to be. 5 do you think it's

a viable framework for cooperation, though i think you're a radical framework that's in reality doesn't thing and that's what i thought we have. the chancellor of germany came to visit china. they have this framework from china. they know that they will not succeed or no body. right, because again, they have problems inside german. i hope you were right. we need to point fingers. everybody has. ringback this feeling the glass ceiling, right? so, so that's very important for the mighty way they have they. what is the tendency not to say they want to do radical framework or political work? say we're going to be hired. we're going to be going to do that. but they changed, for example, last week we did well, joe biden, sad that he's not

a rival. china, he's that you see that you're going to more calibrate there because there is no purchase as the company, everybody, you know, united states going to. ringback from china, you talked to debbie. oh can you can you diminish here? yeah. because currently americans they will have they are christmas. they will not . they even that is not the. ringback be the how we part. so that's a very important many years promising in working together in the company from china. they got a couple where because it, as i heard my message, there is no any more i'm doing by myself. can i ask you one more thing about the practical reality? because i know that you how brazil's efforts in the context of bricks, this is such an interesting grouping. it was, if i remember correctly, started as

a really a marketing ploy to sell. 7 shares of developing countries, but slowly and surely it developed into a viable organization that now seems to expand ok. how do you see the purpose of bricks at this point of time? and what do you think this formats can offer that other groupings can off is very good the us and you go to bring the start with the nation to be president lula and president. but that some time ago, right before to. busy 1014, so in a lot of people will see that these move not be sustainable because looking with such a different background, such a different agenda and funny, different geography. i mean there are literally in my point to the beginning because there wasn't wrong. there was a meeting that is via number one viable because we shared the same necessity. we

share that with the brick wall warm 1st voice. well, developing countries who try bower more de, would be doing these, these economic between developed and developing countries. number one, number 2, we learn who respects our difference in the work together. and then when we keep the shot and we've each other, we know we are a girl. we can have a voice, a lot of things to be built. so we believe when we created the national develop, the new develop bank is be we have a baby called the grid. right. rick bank. and i love people. it was that we mean we sark, s corps cuz we've been fired and then we need then because the idea was a boy for developing countries, we need to know or do something different. exactly. the question that us sions,

after i read was they are mo, by the western one. ringback western europe in another state, and they don't who are we need to do that in the news? one of the nice from is you mentioned the brakes became a platform for giving a voice to developing countries. but i'm hearing more and more from various analysts that it's actually became a practical tasking round for how to do trade and business with that without the western financial trash. so essentially testing various ways of convincing their with the western financial and trade infrastructure. do you agree that it's, it's the finding a new purpose right now. why? because we have different media group in trade. we need that. so is that

what not the objective. and of course, and the objective, what will have a better coordination will need to go discussion board as a mechanism. that's why you will have a secret there. yeah, that's why you never will see president ok. but of course the cool thing is, is it also. ringback i hope in the future, that's my personal hope that we can have a trade not only bilateral for it, but the side of the ladder was reading the break, where we need to commercializing dollar where we can use the great currencies. busy to do that, that we bring to, you know, so that might expect as well. perhaps we have time for thank you very much for being on our show. very, very much as it rushes. but i'm thank you for watching the whole tissue or again, the same place, same time on the walls apart from the

me me ah, a isha african who, what is the best time on the i do about them. this is a little bit of a lady with what i see school because my port backwards, but something, something that might give me a port, then it got a national krinski part of it, which it, it said the chest. i mean, you can even down can be

a comma loser and become lost. somebody empty a community that the car left really not all like it's supposed to start out. the keys affected door only out of that. so i did need it with us. that's clear. but, but then what's the routing the spoof moving right? nobody with looking at them during the summer because i've met with cornell that correctly. well, it was, it was the case, but also the new big us over for you will that they should i see it in august of chicago that we're still a, a a

with our top headlines on our tea cementing friendly ties, a cube as president right now meeting with vladimir putin on a visit sub we has already addressed the parliament life analysis coming up in just a moment. of europe prioritize its political issue is ahead of its energy needs. china takes a rather more pragmatic approach and strikes and historic 27 year deal with cut gas deliver australia claims of having some of the cleanest coal on the planet appear to go up and smoke offer whistle blowers claims the fuels. green credentials have actually been baked with .