the immediate years off was it become rather a well known and if not famous to speech from a younger ladyman, that's going to wrap up the show for now. here we're not international. thank you for joining us. we'll see you around with hello. welcome to was apart. on the 1st day off next here a brazil is set, you know, great. it's old new president who has been sworn into office twice before with the same promises of eliminating poverty and socializing governance with lewis to

return latin america still to the left is more pronounced than ever. but will it help in taking social justice from the tired reality of ideology into practical living reality? want to discuss it? i'm now joined by alessandra colombia to shay raf, professor of public policy at some cost university school of public policy and management professor in the great you see a great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much for doing. thank you very much. now on the day or if he's in all of your ration, president lula will be $77.00, the oldest person on the record to assume on the brazilian presidency. i wonder if you see any contradiction between his age and he has promised us to rejuvenate both and brazil's economy and society. no, i don't. i was there 1st and i will ration because they were part of the government . i was part of the team and i,

i haven't followed him because now in china and i see the same far the same energy they wish to make a difference. what we need to call attention is that when we start monday, 2003, generally the problem was i will think the same situation where we're now a lot of the crime relate that before the situation was not very good, we been through a lot of economics or more, and i think back to the same point in or bringing i was in the government of review for 30 years and everything that you have done and it didn't work very hard. and now most one big case in the house who go back is a very, very hard to age. and so i think despite his age we using our 5 year change everything. and i think also to be part of the brazil i thought. and he

also seems to be in a very good chain. before we discuss the particulars of brazilian life american politics. let me ask you one question about age, because it's not just in brazil, but in many other countries. the united states, china, turkey, russia to name just a few. we have tried and tested leaders, people who are roughly 70 years of age, who, who, who been in politics for quite some time. and he and then now tasked with navigating countries through very fast change is how do you explain that phenomena? because generally we think about older people as not very adaptable. i need to know it's a 3 question. why? because how do i support that need to renovate the need to bring in people we

need because we have a governance problem in the low. busy look called the 19 the crisis in terms of climate change. so we don't find the answer. so maybe the generation. busy is that the best in ration we've 6 years old? be our last train or we feared the boat. the conditions are so people they eat like joe by then. busy then she present . busy we people that they trust that where we pass, so i leave, there is a psychological element, but out, so i and the mentor who nation all those that need to have more, i'd say more up to date. i'll go to. ready teaching cracks, i think our neither ship we're not changing class so. so let me call me that we

need to deal with because the young, the biggest, the a problem like my home, or like if you, if they are, for farmers, they are not, there would be, they don't, they would be, as you pointed out in one of your articles recently as a brazilian citizen, you feel happy and that western democracy still works at least and used to have in latin america. and that sounds very cheeky. do you mean to imply that in other parts of america a vesting democracy doesn't work? yeah. what do you apply that the goals that we can get? the peoplesoft will be here, but what is the concept of western democracy, right? the majority choose the leaders. the keys are not to think that the majority does not to the leaders because the majority of the former lacks president. trump was not that much. the majority has to be deal or not. so in other places around

the. ringback western i'm here we have for example, if we go to europe and we see the both be prime interest or all the england, some right, there are left with 20 percent of the, of the nation. so these does not go toward the concept that we like to move in west . and so they gave a brazil definite exhibit the colonial. he's an exemplary that he's a max equal the majority of the relation that has both and or the from that my point, that's my going. if you know a couple of years ago, i myself had a chance to interview president lula. and he said that that time, i think it was 2019, probably that he had no doubt about the support for him among the common folks. but he was complaining that the brazilian ruling class can do anything without 1st

consulting with the united states. so essentially many of the decision and his view and that time where our source to the decision maker is in washington. do you think that is still in a problem in brazil? and if so, how do you think you should address it? oh, i think that's her modern discussion in terms of how last in america be modern economic, right. we had for some time of dependence. so not a is not to say dependence, but we have the recommendation. so when you were talking about the right, when are the nominal need in latin america? ready in united states they're, they've green, achieved, but i think is not only united states. we have this in different countries, even in russia, we know a good part of the russian board or doing the strike at home and the united states in other we even in china and they do that. so because they're not

a marketing dreaming place. so i think it's natural walk in america to have that because you are a cool. so president look that we try to americanize policy lunch. so in the case of a fair number, that's what it was. nation, we have what we call direct alignments with. ringback paul, if that comes from washington, not only from the washington, but even late, they're all in our view in the president, all of you with the lack of latin america, we need to negotiate. why need to respect? was america if you're be or is more cuz we need to be in the same level. that's one person who is going to fight for. that's what latin america is, the one who we are not the backyard of united states. you're not the jago who we are neighbor and we need to respect each other. now, as you pointed out, miss littlest victory, the 6 largest economies in latin america, brazil, mexico,

argentina, chile, colombian, peru now governed by the left. his body's not counting other countries like cuba and believe in doris, who have had that trajectory for quite some time now. and the person was born and the soviet union and i think was conditioned to sort of be somewhat shameful. of my country's socialist pass. i want to ask you, specifically, how do you think the, the left of the 21st century will be different from the last of the 20th century. and are there any last them that have to be kept in the, in the front of politicians? mine, i think the good news for the less use that me understand that would change and wrap social movements. they change wrap before when we are talking about last you were talking about economic model. when will need to?

many people talk now about not about the normal model, meaning we're going to be capitalism. but how we go through that. you know, my point here when we are talking last the last in america use that we. ringback want to challenge capitalism is not the point for the lack of latin america. we weren't changed. that's a little different. why? because we know that these states even cow marks. when he was writing, he started writing a book capital if he was not writing about company is most social and so there is a promotion in that process. so the most important part of the last is that the capital is. busy locked in america because is the develop region was what we call wildcat. so money buys everything, money is the most important. so you get the life of the so the last american do

stand that you need to teach and you can work in a system that the birth will be care off. so we need to understand that in order to have more than is ation of the colonies, digitization climate issue. so. ringback all these, i think the last, the not to discuss and that's why we, as you know, cited we have the majority, the latin american people, they know when come on, that is their care care, corporate people, not the whole money. but you also suggested in your writing and then you turn to the left has an international dimension. you suggested that present luna lula can formulate a joint plan for developing countries in this new era? and it's an interesting thing to think about because over the last couple of decades, the developed world excelled in offering various developmental frameworks to the

3rd world. countries, the frameworks that more often than not we're used to serve the benefactor rather than beneficiary. do you think brazil and other countries will be able to resist that temptation to plunder the the weaker side and the do you think they will succeed in being sort of fair and measured in the way they share the ideology or the economy with others? yeah, i'm not sure if we got to succeed because then that will the war sort of thing. but i believe you're going to fight because when you're fighting for these alan, we're fighting, not horizontal company and her. we are fighting for people. we have more than 3100000000 people living in a large group, a situation or

a boy. we never had such a technology in the school. wow. he's here we greece, under the director general and the general united nation a doing do not a nation open in new york. he mentioned that out of the 70 s e g g 's. they will develop goals. we do the lat, she, we're not here. what you and your date, this is big by itself is the data. and we have there probably asians, asian climate change it around. so we do have a problem. we have a minor problem here of taking a short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah

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welcome back. she was, of course, with alexandra columbia, the sheriff, professor of public policy and cos, university school of public policy and management. professor. as you mentioned before the break, are you how many high ranking positions within the brazilian government before taking on teaching? and yet given your very expensive, practical and academic expertise in economics, i wonder if your understanding of how global economy functions, how it succeeds and how it falters, hasn't changed in any way or would the last couple of months because of many countries think that many countries were exposed to things that they believed were impossible before. no, i think i, i need that is i will say 2 decades in politics. there will be review and international missions. we are and we understand the boucher of the economy. we

understand that and understand that we need to understand of human beings. that's the society are federal people so. so that's the most important in before break it, we're finding that we have many problems in the problem has been raises. like climate change like is the damage that the demands, like walbert e, like hunger in those problems, is that very big or not, but we've a single solution. so i don't think i can solve the problem. we need to have collective leadership and that's what i keep missing. we have sensors. everybody is more or the size of capitalism. the. ringback the g need you all the options, but we need to understand that we don't get out of damage. we don't change climate

change or better if we can work together. it's not worth needs to be action. and that's the point. now, you've pointed in one of your articles that because the west to believe in the industrial revolution and because it led the transformation from national history into world history, people around the world till time to see westernization as, as synonymous with modernity. despite the fact that i would actually have produced many of the problems that you actually cited right now, and that brought humanity on, on the cost of this ecological and konami disaster. now, how long do you think the world will subscribe to this notion that despite everything the west still knows what bath for the raft? well, i think it's very quickly. we go to the next 5 years or so. asia, for example, already we parking 45 percent of the mobile did we?

we do china already as the 2nd of the world. there is going to be countries that you never heard that he's wet and haven't heard. like people, nisha, malaysia, can borgia the people they have in our culture. especially not a marathon. we don't know very much what is you know, and i always think that you don't even need that cause we've almost more than 200 mean people and they are called over by 7000. i 7000 and they are now the leader of the 20 for these years. so we need to get the nation malaysia over 200000000 people. so, so that's very border and they have a different perspective. they have different laws. we tell that he's, but we think that is a lot of discussion about the clash of civilizations. you know, where the western civilization is,

the american because the north americans lived like brazil was remember always that that's very bored. the united states in brazil where this go over by the real, being in the, for the end of the parking hand being they discover america by a mistake, not mine, but because they want to go around dirt ish area that they pine the also money pyre. because. ringback goes where they come here, china as we get free. so we are talking with people like, yeah, like china, 3005000 years. after my knowledge that professor, we don't respect the, i think the way the americans or the westerners want to do business now is a little bit differ. and then it was that those historic times. and one could argue that the global economy, as it exists today, or at least as it was envisioned, it's sort of based on this idea that the west will provide the rest of the world

with technology finances while getting in return consumer goods and natural resources. and i think one can argue with reliance on data that western companies or western countries often use that dominant position to secure better prices, cheaper prices for them thought. so, you know, using your analogy with the colonization, it was always a little bit of glass beads for gold exchange. do you think the, well, the western economies can sustain themselves by themselves without this, in built on their exchange or in build this balance? no, they cannot. i'm taking, i'm historically explanation. that's what i hear. but if you, even if you're talking about the largest thinking, the world you nation financial, at least 56 are chinese. you're talking about large corporations,

let's say picking all as a company, what we call unicorn, what is that or would be and we have, let's say $400.00 fibers in the world. we have more than 100 chinese so, so i think the bottom of the column is getting out from the west corner this to the asian. and that is the change. there is a change. how to business. there is a change of culture. there is a lot of change or. ready one of the elements say like the thought, you know, let's take, i think in the logical platform for the youngsters right now to see if you go like in america. ready or everybody, you know, body or very few people know that little chinese and you start char. so these things you changing will change because these ages be going to lead into

knowledge the going to lead production. and they were leaving the service and they platform economy. ringback so that is the change and that's why you that they and you are so concerned with china. that's why you have, you're not a commercial, i see the logical thing sion by the leadership so. so that's a very important point that us now you mentioned that they are very concerned that i think that's a very diplomatic term, perhaps owning to your experience in the international negotiations. but they seem to be pretty aggressive when it comes to dealing with china. and i don't know if you've seen it. the german magazine spiegel recently published a draft copy of germany strategies of china, which explicitly said that they will give the priority to human rights issues. and the way they defined human rights issues, to economic cooperation and in dire interpretations when it comes to human rights, there would be no cultural or religious relativity that you are talking about. they

insist only on diet trig vision of how it's supposed to be. 5 do you think it's a viable framework for cooperation, though i think your radical framework, that's the reality thing. and that's what i thought we have. the chancellor of germany came to visit china. they have this framework from china. they know that they will not succeed or no body. right, because again, they have problems inside your and you were right. we need to figure everybody has . ringback this feeling the glass ceiling, right? so that's a very important for the magical way they have. they. what is the tendency not to say they want to do radical framework or political work?

they were going to be hired. we going to do this, but they changed, for example, last week. did you? well, joe biden, sad that he's not the rival, china, he's that. you see that you're gonna more calibrate because there is no purchase as the company, everybody, you know, you're not going to. ringback from china, you think talking oh, can you, can you diminish here? yeah. because the coupling americans, they will have that many years of promising in working together in the company from china. they go to a couple where because it, as i said, that's my message. there is no, any more i'm doing by myself. can i ask you one more thing about the practical reality? because i know that you how brazil's efforts in the context of bricks, this is such an interesting grouping. it was,

if i remember correctly started as essentially a marketing ploy to sell shares of developing countries. but slowly and surely it developed into a viable organization that now seems to expand. how do you see the purpose of bricks at this point of time? and what do you think this form i can offer that other groupings cannot? is very good the us and he goes, bring the start with the nation to be president lula and president. but that some time ago, right before 2014. so in a lot of people will see that these may not be sustainable because looking because with such a different background, such a different agenda and some different geography. i mean, by far, it's literally in my point to the beginning because there wasn't wrong, there was in a meeting that is via number one viable because we shared the same necessity. we

share that assistant. he breaks off warm work voice, well developing countries who try bower more the world between these, these economic, between develop and developing countries. number one, number 2, we learn who respects our difference in the work together. and then when we didn't jot we've each other. we know we are strong, we can have a voice, a lot of things to be built. so we believe when we create the national develop, the new develop bank is be we have the whole bank of the grid, right. rick bank. and i love people. it was that we mean we, sorry, we've been fired and then we need then because the idea was who, who i for develop because we need to know or do something different. exactly. the

question that us after i read was they are moved by western one. ringback western europe in another state, and they don't who are we need to do that in the news? one of the part, the nice from is you mentioned the brakes became a platform for giving a voice to developing countries. but i'm hearing more and more from various analysts that it's actually became a practical tactile ground for how to do trade and business with that without the western financial pressure. so essentially testing various ways of circumventing the western financial and trade infrastructure. do you agree that it's a finding a new purpose right now? why? because we have different meet your group in train,

you need that. so. ringback is that all but what not the objective and or, and the objective, what will have a better coordination will need to go discussion board as a mechanism. that's why you will have a secret there. yeah, that's why you never will be president. ok. but for the cool sequences is it going on with this. ringback so i hope in the future that's my personal hope that we can have a trade not only bilateral 3, but the side of the ladder was reading the break where we don't need commercializing dollar. where does he use the great currency. busy to do that, that would be a brit cool. you know so, so that my expectancy, well perhaps this is all we have time for. thank you very much for being on our show. thank you very much as it rushes. and thanks for watching, i hope to hear again the same place, same time on a was apart from me

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