integrated in the weather, turning into winter ukraine faces the star prospect of becoming a failed state. no amount of western arms can change that harsh reality. washington kids have demonstrated they have no real interest in negotiations. ukraine state has been seal with long welcome to was a part on the 1st day of next year. a brazil is set to, you know, great. it's old new president who has been sworn into office twice before with the same promises of eliminating poverty and socializing governance with lewis to

return latin america still to the left is more pronounced than ever. but will it help in taking social justice from the tired reality of ideology into practical living reality or to discuss it? i'm now joined by alessandra colombia to share professor of public policy at some cost university school of public policy and management. professor in the great you see a great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much for looking. thank you very much. now on the day or he's in all of your ration, president lula will be 77. the oldest person on the record to assume on the brazilian presidency. i wonder if you see any contradiction between his age and he has promised us to rejuvenate both and brazil's economy and society. no, i don't. i was there 1st and i will ration because they were part of the government . i was part of the team and i, i have been follow him because now in china and i see the same far the same energy

thing. i wish to make a difference. what we need to call attention is that when we start monday, in 2003 generally the problem was i will think the same situation where we're now a lot of the crime related for 430 p to ration was not very good. you been through a lot of mixer and i think he's back with the same point or being i was in the government, but we're here for 30 years in seeing everything that you have done and it didn't work very hard. now most one big case in the house go back is a very nice, a very hard to age. and so despite his age we using our say you 5 years will change everything. and i think also to be part of the history of

brazil, i thought, and he also seems to be in a very good chain. before we discuss the particulars of brazilian life american politics. let me ask you one question about age because it's not just in brazil, but in many other countries. the united states, china, turkey, russia, to name just a few. we have tried and tested leaders, people who are roughly 70 years of age, who, who, who been in politics for quite some time. and he and then now tasks with navigating countries through very fast change is how do you explain that phenomena? because generally we think about older people as not very adaptable. i need to know it's a 3 question. why? because now i support that need to renovate the need to bring in people

we need because we have a governance problem in the world that. busy look, cause i mean the cries isn't terms of climate change, so we don't find the answer. so maybe the generation. busy that is all that the back to ration we 6 years old be are not as train or, or fear the whole thing, the condition that are so people they eat like job by then. busy then she present. busy we people that they trust that wearing the past. so i believe there is a psychological element, but out, so i as a mentor, who nation, all those god that need to have more. i'm a more up to date. i'll go to teaching cracks. i think our leadership, we're not changing so, so let's see that caught me that we need to deal with because the young,

the biggest, the a problem like my home or like if you feed there for farmer, they are not, there would be they don't, they would be, as you pointed out in one of your articles, recently as a brazilian citizen, you feel happy and that western democracies still works at least and used to have in latin american. that sounds very cheeky. do you mean to imply that in other parts of america a vesting democracy doesn't work? yeah. what do you apply that the goals that we can get the peoplesoft will be here, but what does. ringback western democracy, right? the majority to the leaders don't think that the majority need does not to the leaders because the majority, the former lacks president. trump was not that much. the majority has to be deal or not. so in other places around the. ringback western i'm here we have for

example, if we go to europe and we see the both to be private or all the land. some right, there are elected with quincy percent of the both of the nation. so these does not go toward the concept that we like the news in west, and so they gave a brazil definite exhibit that isn't cologne yet. he's an exemplary that he's a max equal the majority of the relation that has both and that's my point. that's my going to, you know, a couple of years ago i myself had a chance to interview president lula, and he said that that time, i think it was 2019 probably that he had no doubt about the support for him among the common folks but he was complaining that the brazilian ruling class can do anything without 1st consulting with the united

states. so essentially many of the decisions and his view and that time where our source to the decision makers in washington, do you think that is still in a problem in brazil? and if so, how do you think you should address it? oh, i think that's her mother's discussion in terms of how last in america be modern economic, right. we had for some time of dependence. so not a is not to say dependent but we have the recommendation. so when you were talking about the right, when are the nominal, the leak in latin america, in united states, they're, they've green i t, but i think it's not only united states. we have this in different countries, even in russia. we know a good part of the russian board or doing the strike of home and the united states in other we even in china. so because they're not

a marketing dreaming place. so i think his natural walk in america to have that because you are a cool. so president who was worried that we try to americanize policy to lunch. so in the case of a fair number, that's what it was. nation, we have what we call direct alignments. with. ringback paul, if that comes from washington, not only from the washington, but even late, they're all in our view in the president. all of you with the lack of latin america, we need to negotiate dive, why need to respect? was america if you're be or is more cuz we need to be in the same level. that's one person who is going to fight for. that's what latin america. once we are not the backyard of united states, you're not the jago who we are neighbor and we need to respect each other. now, as you pointed out, miss littlest victory, the 6 largest economies in latin america, brazil, mexico, argentina, chile,

colombian, peru now governed by the left, its bodies, not counting other countries like cuba, and believe in doris, who have had that trajectory for quite some time now and the person was born and the soviet union, and i think was conditioned to sort of be somewhat shameful. of my country's social is past. i want to ask you, specifically, how do you think the, the left of the 21st century will be different from the last of the 20th century. and are there any last them that have to be kept in the, in the front of politicians line? i think the good news for the less use that me understand that will be changing rapidly. social movements, they change wraps before when we are talking about last you are talking about. ready cannot make more than a political model. many people talk about not norma model,

meaning we're going to be capitalism. but how we prove that? we've gone through that, you know, my point here when we are talking, lasting latin america use that we. ringback want to challenge capitalism is not the point for the lack of latin america. we weren't change capital, that's a little different. why? because we know that these states even cow marks, when he was writing, he thought writing a book capitalist, he was not writing about company is more social, so there is a promotion in that process. so the most important part of the last is that the capital is me latin america because is the develop region was what we call wild cat. so money buys every money is the most important. so you get the life of the so the last,

the last american do stand that you need to teach and you can work in the system that the birth will be care off. so we need to understand that in order to have more that is ation of the colony digitization climate issue. ringback all these, i think the last, the not to discuss and that's why we will fight. did we have the majority, the latin american people they know we come on, that is their care. care corporate people, not the whole money, but you also suggested in your writing than this. then you turn to the left has an international dimension. you suggested the president luna? lula can formulate a joint plan for developing countries in this new era. and it's an interesting thing to think about. because over the last couple of decades, the developed world excelled in offering various developmental frameworks to the 3rd world. countries the frameworks that more often than not were used to serve the

benefactor rather than beneficiary. do you think brazil and other countries will be able to resist that temptation to plunder the weaker side and the do you think they will succeed in being sort of fair and measure in the way they share the ideology or the economy with others? yeah, i'm not sure if we're going to succeed because then that was the war sort of speak but, but even going to fight because when you're fighting for these them and we are find the not corporate, that'll cause me as i heard we're fighting for people. we have more than $3.00, being the people leaving the hell in a large proportion of these, the even more areas in the yard doing to ation hunger. in her important

point, we never have such a big knology and the cord. wow. any here we increase hunger, the director general, the general united nations who is doing the nations open in new york. he mentioned that out of the 7 gene s e g, g 's. so they will develop go, we did the that she more you're not me or where she in your notes. ok, this is, this is the data and we have their corporate deviation. we thought is asian climate change for me to develop? so we don't have a problem. we have a minor problem here off taking a short break, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. me

i me watching was in control if i give you the ball and the shadow shorter one phenomenon from this day last week when i scan, when i a good bye. when you get on with the idea, a

welcome back to work support with alessandro colombia to share a professor of public policy in cross university school of public policy and management professor. as you mentioned before the break, are you how many high ranking positions within the brazilian government before taking on teaching and yet given your very expensive practical and academic expertise in economics. i wonder if your understanding of how global economy functions, how it succeeds and how it falters, hasn't changed in any way or would the last couple of months because of many countries. i think that many countries were exposed to things that they believed were impossible before. no, i think i, i need that is, i will say 2 decades in politics. there will be review in international missions we

are and we understand the boucher of the economy. we understand that and understand that we need to understand the human be and that's why society are not federal people so, so that's the most important in before break it, we're finding that we have many problems in the problem has been raising like climate change, like it's damaged then, like robert e like hunger is don't problems, is that very big or not, but we've a single solution. so i don't think i can solve the problem. we need to have collected leadership, and that's what i keep missing. we have sensors. everybody is more or this is capitalism. the. ringback need you all the options, but we need to understand that we don't get out of damage. we don't change climate

change or better if we can work together. it's not worth needs to be action. and that's the point. now, you've pointed in one of your articles because the west to believe in the industrial revolution and because it led the transformation from national history into world history. people around the world still tend to see westernization as, as synonymous with modernity. despite the fact that i would actually have produced many of the problems that you actually cited right now, and that brought humanity on, on the cost of this ecological and konami disaster. now, how long do you think the world will subscribe to this notion that despite everything the west still knows what bath for the raf? thank you very quickly. we're going to see the next 5 years or so. asia, for example, already we parking 45 percent of the mobile did we?

we do china already as a 2nd of the world. there is going to be countries that you never heard that he's wet and haven't heard. like people need malaysia borgia, the people they have in our culture, especially not a maritime. we don't know very much. what is, you know, and i always hear that you were even nisha is our country. i was more than 200 mean people and they are called over by 7000. i 7000. and they are now the leader of the 24th year. so we need to get nation malaysia over 200000000 people. so. so that's very border and they have a different perspective. ready they have different law offices. we tell that he's that we think, and that is a lot of discussion about the clash of civilizations. you know,

where the western civilization, the american because the north american lives like brazil was. remember always that that's very bored. the united states in brazil where this go over by the real thing in the, for the end of the parking has their own being. they discover america by a mistake, not mine, but because they want to go around dirt ish area. they pine the also money buyer because. ringback goes with the china, the media to train. so we're talking with people like, yeah, like china, 3005000 years after my knowledge that perhaps if you don't respect the, i think the way the americans or the westerners want to do business now is a little bit differ. and then it was that those historic times and one could argue that the global economy, as it exists today, or at least as it was envisioned,

is sort of based on this idea that the west will provide the rest of the world with technology finances while getting in return consumer goods and natural resources. and i think one can argue with reliance on data that western companies or western countries often use that dominant position to secure better prices, cheaper prices for them also, you know, using your analogy with the colonization. it was always a little bit of glass beads for gold exchange. do you think the, well, the western economies can sustain themselves by themselves without this, in built on their exchange or in build does balance. lo, it cannot. i'm thinking i'm historically explanation. that's what here. but if you, even if you're talking about the largest bank in the world, you nation financial at least $56.00 are chinese. you're talking about large

corporations, let's say. ringback knowledge copeland is what we call unicorn, is that the. ringback orbit would be and we have, let's say, $400.00 fibers in the world. we have more than $100.00 chinese. so, so i said the bottom of the column is getting out from the west. the corner of this asian. and that is the change. there is a change of how to do business. there is a change of culture, there is a lot of change. so for example, one of the elements they like to thought, you know, let's take the logical platform for the youngsters, right? if you go the amount of, say, if you go in america, he's got fever, everybody, you know, body or very few people know that little chinese and you start in charge. so these things is changing and we will change because these ages can be going to lead

knowledge going to lead production and they were leaving the thermal platform economy. so they are changing and that's why united states and you are so concerned with china, that's why you have not the commercial. i see the logical sanction by the leadership so. so that's a very important point that us now you mentioned that they are very concerned that i think that's a very diplomatic term, perhaps owning to your experience in the international negotiations. but they seem to be pretty aggressive when it comes to dealing with china. and i don't know if you've seen it, the german magazine speaker recently published a drop copy of germany's strategy, the china, which explicitly said that they will give the priority to human rights issues. and the way they defined human rights issues, to economic cooperation and in their interpretations when it comes to human rights,

that could be no cultural or religious relativity that you are talking about. they insist only on that trick vision of how it's supposed to be. do you think it's a viable framework for cooperation? no, i think your radical framework. that's the reality thing. and that's what i thought we have the chancellor of germany came to visit china. they have this framework go from china. they know that they will not succeed or nobody's going to see right . because again, they have problems inside german. you were right, we need to figure everybody has. ringback this feeling the glass ceiling, right? so, so that's very important for privacy. my way they have they, what is the tendency not to say they want to do radical framework or political

work? say we're going to be going to do this, but they change, for example, last week. did you well, joe biden, sad that he's not the rival, china, he's that you see that you're gonna more calibrate because there is no purchase as the company. everybody, you know, you're not going to pick up from china talk they, oh, can you, can you diminish here? let me go back up because there is a coupling americans. ringback have they are christmas, they will not, they even, that is not, that will be how we part. so that's a very important many years of promising in working together in the company from china. they go to where, because is it, as i said, the board, my message, there is no way any more. i'm by myself. can i ask you one more thing about the

practical reality? because i know that you how brazil's efforts in the context of bricks, this is such an interesting grouping. it was, if i remember correctly, started as a really a marketing ploy to sell shares of developing countries. but slowly and surely in develop into a viable organization that now seems to expand and how do you see the purpose of bricks at this point of time? and what do you think this formats can offer that other groupings can off? it's very who that who as you go the start with the nation, the president lula and president. busy the death some time ago, right before 2014. so in a lot of people will see that these will not be favorable. because looking because we have such a different background such as different about gender and different geography. i

mean, by far, it's literally in my point, seems the beginning because there wasn't wrong, there was in the meeting that is vital number one viable because we shared the same necessity. we share that assistant. he breaks off warm 1st voice. well, developing countries who try bower more will be doing this. this will not make the thing developed and developing countries. number one, number 2, we learn who respects our difference in the work together. and then when we keep the job we've each other. we know we're, it's all we can have a voice, then i want to be billed. so we believe when we create the national develop, the new develop bank is be we had called the bank on the grid. right. rick bank. and i want people, it was that we need, we sorry,

we didn't look why and then we need to expand because there was a who i for develop because we need to know or do something different exactly the question that us sions, after i read the will they are moved by western one western europe in another state, and they don't. who are we need to do that in the brick news? one of the part, the nice from is you mentioned the greeks became a platform for giving a voice to developing countries. but i'm hearing more and more from various analysts that it's actually became a practical tasking ground for how to do trade and business with that without the western financial pressure. so essentially testing various ways of circumventing the western financial and trade infrastructure. do you agree that

it's a finding a new purpose right now? why? because we have different media group in trade. we need that. so is that all stick with what, what not the objective and, or, and the objective, what will have a better coordination will need to go discussion board as a mechanism. that's why you will have a sticker there. yeah, that's why whoever will be president. ok. but of course, the cool thing is, is it going on with this? so i hope in the future, that's my personal hope that we can have a trade not only bilateral trade, but the latter was reading the breaks where we don't need commercializing dollar where you currencies. busy to do that, that would be a brit cool. you know, so that my expectancy, well perhaps this is all we have time for. thank you very much for being on our

show you very much and thank you for watching the whole history again. same place, same time on was apart from me me ah, with its infrastructure being degraded and the weather turning into winter ukraine faces the stark prospect of becoming a failed state. no amount of western arms can change that harsh reality. why she didn't care have demonstrated they have no real interest in negotiations. ukraine

state has been seal with headlines this, our euro pharmacy, a more natural gas results and go sunny and 20 said the deal with china can yes, and almost a 1050. the democratic republic of congo, quote, an insurgent uprising in the countries with the new the robot number florida as p r . a claim of having some of the clears cold look trying to go up is.