and 65 percent of the people voted to keep the car fly. our purpose is to defend the good name of the confederates held because of these monuments that you see everywhere or not can they're not monuments to the can better go there. monuments to the, to the soldiers, to the veterans. you know, if we're going to be offended by everything, every negative part of our history, we have to get rid of everything. ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle at the recent g 20 meeting in bali. the west, it all, it could with the help of corporate media to isolate russia,

all their efforts came to nothing. in fact, the office it happened, russia was a welcome participant, nato's proxy war in ukraine is united much of the global south. it's nato against the world. ah cross stuck in the global majority. i'm joined by my guess alpha desires in geneva . he's. i'll use an author and former you an independent expert on your national order. in belgrade we have stephen guide. she is a research associate at the at belgrade institute for european studies and assemble . we cross the house on now. he is professor at the department of political science and international relations at mel tip university. welcome, gentlemen, cross high girls and a fact that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate alfred . let me go to you 1st here much. when said about the conflict in ukraine, but if you look at the on an international scale, i see a tipping point, a pivot as it were going on here. the recent g 20 meeting and bali is

a very good indication when western media says that g 20 is united on ukraine, which is absolutely propaganda. it is not true whatsoever. and if you go into the thick description and look at countries wanted to talk about, they wanted to talk about food. they want to talk about energy. they want to talk about trade. they didn't want to talk about ukraine. but the, the, the countries that are in the g 7 that are in the g 20, that's all they want to talk about. this is a huge diversion. going on. go ahead alfred. well, but the informational war continues, i'm intensifies in the west. i am really surprised, i live here in geneva, switzerland, and our newspapers. the preventative and the noise should titled really follow the new york times on the one of those and cnn, etc. so the informational war in the west, the indoctrination brainwashing in the west is alive and well not of course as in

function as the severally in latin america. those and function in africa doesn't function in asia course latin america, asia, or the priority we in, we have an internal western corral between the united states, the europeans and the russians. and basically we have no right through a risk the welfare of the entire planet. because of our corral, whether don't it happens to be in rush out or in your crate. i mean, this is an internal matter that should never have led violence. it's an internal matter. there should have been central pursuant to article 2 paragraph 3 of the un charter, which is the only rules based order that we have. the un charter

basically is the world constitution and i am sick and tired of hearing. my secretary general invoke are so called rules based international order. well, for i will alfred, i've done so. i'm sick and tired of that phrase too because it is vacuous. it has no meaning, and it means i have the rules and you're going to do what i tell you to do. that's what it means or saving a limb in belgrade. much of what alford said must seem very familiar to you considering how the weather, demonizes, serbia, it's really the same plane book. it just on steroids this time. go ahead in belgrade. exactly. i mean what we're seeing is a lost group. busy of neo colonial. busy language, the thing is that everybody knows the phrases we all understand what's what they're actually saying. this is only a re framing of the language which is supposed to keep the not only the global

cells, but i would say all of the political, not politically, non western actors in the world are in the state of submission. and in a state of constant extortion or resources people and deuce prevents the changes that are inevitable. and i think that's maybe for to russians. this war is even a civil war. busy on a, on a, on a close, there are on a part of it's of sheesh article territory boss for the rest of the world. i think this is an anti colonial struggle at 40 anglo american coalition. this is also exit national for their interest because they, they just don't want to do these with the changes that are in the us on, in a stumble. turkey is a member of nato. here been turkey is playing a unique role in this situation here. and it's quite commendable, i would say,

because you know, we are in a multi polar world, and turkey gets it and understands it, and acts as if it is a significant power in its region. and it's acting upon its interest here, even though it's other nato allies don't like it. of course, the e u. it was it 10 days ago, you know, the, the used through, you know, telling the turks not to get, don't cozy up to the russians. i mean, what about sovereignty to see why agree with what stephen just said here, you know, the sovereignty self determination here. this is something the west talks about, but never practices go ahead and assemble. well, as you said, 30 is a member of nato, and it's been a reliable member of nato, with the 2nd biggest forces. and its armed forces has had enormous experience and all that. but it has also the political experience at particular, within the mental world and the western world. holiday for instance,

propagandized thing you saw day diamond eyes was leaders and how they try to basically resort to propaganda on all matters these days. in particular, over the last few decades, they use propaganda as ballistic. my size, you know, they, they, they just send a bother to massage in the formal propaganda across the world. but the good thing is, we in turkey hardly believe in this sort of propaganda anymore, because it's been resorted to so many times so frequently that it has lost much of its meaning. yet it is not convinced that it's not convincing a told, you know, as you said, it's a member of nature of the same time. if you ask the public right from day on, on anything that involves the united states, the public would say, oh, it must be the united states basically that to do the wrong. and the

public poll suggested at the beginning of the conflict in ukraine and in inter, into the complex some months that took the public basically blames much of the conflict on the united states and its attitude. so it could have been basically dealt with in a peaceful manner that it was preferred by tonight to states and the rest of the world. as you said, i don't normally call it a globe of south, i call it the united whoa united. all right, hang on, i'm going to top you and the top you on that because it's exactly what i was gonna ask for be in the global south is popular, but i like global majority do like that offer because that's what it is. the global majority mock, there's no question that the, the non western world, it's far more popular than the western world. when we, in the west talk about the international community. we are basically talking on

our next language. we're talking about the united states, canada, europe, australia. we keep the rest of the world out like it doesn't exist. latin america, asia and africa. now, the perception of natal are in latin america, asia and africa. totally different from the perception of natal in europe where we are subjected to a daily mirage of propaganda. and i say that it is important to make clear in the general assembly in the security council that after the dissolution or worse or pack, the nato has no rational investment. and they cannot pretend to be

a defensive alliance is actually an offensive alliance. and i would go one further because of nato's aggression. in europe, flavio not gone as non serious because of the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by nato forces. in all of these countries, nato actually qualifies under articles 9 and 10 of the norm berg stack. you are talking about the long term agreement of 8 august 945. now articles 9 and 10 concern criminal organizations. criminal organizations such as i have helped on in that a few your, many as the as, as etc. now, considering the war, crimes that have been committed by nato forces in total impunity. they certainly

qualify as a criminal organization and i would like to see em bathroom events in that figure. a council actually whole natal. let alfred, let me, let me go down. guess in belgrade said, i mean international law. it's really quite whimsical. how the west uses international law, only mention it when it's to its own purposes and it, and most of the time it's very floppy also. ok. they really aren't very good at invoking it. they always broken against someone else like, you know, war crime trials. i mean, it's always a serve. it's never, never anybody else. it's is weird. ok. ok. but i'll give you the last minute before we go to the break. go ahead. steven bell. great. now i mean 70 percent of all the war criminals that were indicted. some of them, of course, were war criminals in the hey we're, we're serving. i would just like to add them to topics that were just mentioned nato and 30 some, 2 weeks ago,

i was an energy and the 13th boss for assignments and the words i've heard that is basically that the where doesn't want to lose the control over the discourse, for instance, i've, i've, i've heard an expert from the united states to say that nato is the good guys club . and i felt chill coming from your topic from serbia. years of words or mr. robertson, lord, or robertson, who was the general secretary of nato. he was using exactly the same language that so more than i lost his former, a president of serbia use, he talked about international law aggression against that sovereign country. i think what i thought, oh, where were you 15 or 20 years ago with those arguments because we've been saying this for the last 23 years now since 1999. right gentlemen, i have to jump in here. we have to go to a hard break and ask about hard break. we'll continue our discussion on the global majority. stay with our tea. ah

ah, in you need to come to russian state. i never. i stayed on the north side scheme, devastation sunset for a group in the 55 with speaking with we will van in the european union, the kremlin media machine restate on russia today, and split ortiz food next. even our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest, and with

this forward to talking to you all, that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order is a conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence. at the point obviously is too great truck rather than a very job with artificial intelligence. real somebody with a robot less protective phone existence. with

the welcome back to cross sack where all things are considered. i'm peter labelle. command you were discussing the global majority in the me okay, let's go back to our guests and assemble has on, you know, one of the things that they by the administration brought to the world was this democracy versus a talk prosy slogan. and that's all it really is here. when you went in, obviously that goes in with the rules based storage. it's all kind of wrapped up in this kind of discursive nonsense here. but most people don't look at the world that way whatsoever. again, this conflict in ukraine,

which i think is prompted by nato. they wanted to conflict, they wanted to bring russia into a conflict. and then they said, they're not part, we're not part of it. we're not, you're not part of that war, but they very much are part of that war. so, but there's a democracy birth there because versus that talk prosy. it doesn't have any residence outside of b, g 7. go ahead and assemble all that argumentation and that discourse basically doesn't basically. ringback exist and outside the western world, as you said. but more important, i would say this is, this is a, this is an issue. it is not a convincing argument. given that, you see the united states leaders basically going over to saudi arabia, begging for several things, several papers on this and the other. and at the same time,

just as the russian special operation began in ukraine, then you have the united states basically going over to july again for similar papers and all that. and so when it comes to, to basically support day at arguments in general, and they use it as part of their effort to, to, to get their, your political goals. otherwise, you know, there is no such division as democracies and good guys and bad guys. and i'll talk to chris's. so we in turkey, don't bite, talk to, for instance, if you are democracies, then does that mean you have no disagreement among yourself? i mean, we, we know how it is been also you do is between turkey and greece, sometimes turkey and greece are both democracy. they are both natal members,

but they have a lot of disagreement over a number of issues. so that is not a, that is not something on which you can basically baize at well door that it is not serious argument at all. that's such a good point, alfred because read the west ones it wants. is this a suspension of belief? ok that you know that the west talks about geo politics but doesn't practice it. okay. the whole world wants to practice geo politics, your relative strengths, you know, being a member of the international community. and, you know, and what the washington wants is that, you know, there's the, you don't have any g o politics. we have values and you must accept them that that's his rings hollow. go ahead alfred. we in the west, the particular washington and brussels. we're hypocrites. without realizing it, we believe our own propaganda and for sure,

the global majority in the world demands today. and let's get our priority right. we need immediate ceasefire. we need immediate negotiation. we have here locally or powers, and we cannot afford this constant spiral of escalation. so one might make a mistake along the way, as it almost happened last week, when a grain and miss, i'll it all and, and then you have the issues of article 4 and 5 of the nature of treaty. so what we need is mediation, and i will say thanks to president our hon. there has been a possibility of reaching some kind of compromise. and we need mediators. i would like to see switzerland step in and immediate, the grain, russia and nato. not only be russia and ukraine,

i would like to see pope francisco here mediate and plead packs, or the my room, which was the local or the piece or was failure. and the only end of this war can be through negotiation, compromise, rule, quid pro quo. russia will make no sense the my, the code on my don and 2014 the, the west has been in not in a compromising mood. i don't see why they're going to be in it now. ok. everyone was in the, in the, in the west. they want to say ukraine is a victim or ukraine was a volunteer. it was a nato volunteer. and this is what has happened as a result. stephen, let me go to you. i mean, joseph brown talked about the garden and the jungle. i could, to serbia,

i've been to serbia, it's kind of a garden to me. what's going on with that guy? go ahead in belgrade. again, we're, we're going back to this colonial discourse and they're not even realizing that they're using get the same or similar analogy as i've heard from are from robert corporate in his book, radio nations where he speaks about a modern, pretty modern and postmodern states. we're actually, it is a. busy allowed for the political west basically to lie and utilize which really are reminded me of what, what is said about as being the empire of lies. and even when it comes to this, this a whole analogy between dictatorship, al, sorry, theory and the regimes and a democracy is on the other side. well, one of the 1st stand founding states of ne thought was a fascist regime in portugal. busy of journals a salsa at the time. so what kind of language is that they, they b,

r a, they never really followed the rules that they are imposing to the rest of the world . but for themselves, they are so, so one rules applied for their behavior and then there is another set of rules that apply for others. this even even goes with this. i the ology of less affair economics or any single component of the, of the latino he barrel thought. because there is, i would say, an export version. and the one that we use at home and, and i think that the trick a work, of course, it works for over 200 years, but it's not working any more. and i think the majority to the global majority had enough, and they don't want to follow these rules. so now we have a, i would say, a attempt to physically stop the change. and that is why us so much a weapons, a is flowing from the west into ukraine. i believe that ukraine is

a victim, but not in the way that probably majority of people. there's well, my, my, my back to stephen in my point is it volunteered to do this. it's political class co opted by the west. volunteered to do that and the consequences were obvious to anyone that had oh, been eyes. okay, that's what makes this conflict. so tragic because it never should have happened in the 1st place. december 17th of last year. to do ultimatums, we need to talk because it's getting a bad, a wouldn't listen, thought term. wrapping rapidly, running out of time. much aside, what do you think about what i just said in this symbol? while i would say ukraine complex could have been prevented. there's no question about it. and in the end, the sort of compromise wherever it is going to mediate with is going to be, is going to prove that point that it could have been prevented tribe from the beginning. after all, you know, for instance, thinking out

a solution to the ukraine crate crisis, it can go on. on the one hand, you have the sort of whole world interesting laid out those. those include the baltic states and poland, romania and others, including britain and the biden's. how's seems to be quite a d y. that's why we keep hearing the. ready united states military and talking talking in a net least a little bit sensible way. so there seems to be some sort of sort of sobriety coming up within the pentagon. because we heard the pentagon chief saying that ukraine cannot basically push the russians out of ukraine. so the ukraine war aims are not attainable, they are not achievable. and, and it automatically suggestion that comes out of it is that there has to be some sort of compromise. and we see lately the cia and the russian foreign

intelligence service meeting non kara, i mean they didn't talk about basketball the day or any other thing they must, they must have spoken about serious matters. you know, with the turkish intelligence chief, basically mediating between the 2. i would think in the end, this is going to lead to a compromise where you can use, going to turn into some sort of a federation with 2 federated founding states. and then, you know, ukraine's constitution will declare that detail remain a natural country of some sort. well, if this is going to come to that, then why did you basically cause this war and why did you, oh, why did you be? well, my friend, you're, you're here per year for your preaching you, you're preaching to the choir here, stephen. and belgrade, you want to jump in, go ahead. yes, exactly. it seems to me that there is

a division that we're not really that he's not so obvious within the last itself. it seems to me that the people in fans are gone and, and similar structures are way more rational compared to the politicians, both in brussels in the natal structures and the in the hawkish eastern european nathan member states. because they are the ones trying to sat and sell, send the signals. ok, let's talk about it. let's not underestimate russia's power. let's not escalate the conflict. whereas the politicians are those who are constantly putting oil to the fire. and i would like to see how this development goes. i'm very curious about the role of your mask here, because let me just let me jump in here. i never have faith in these politicians are all buffoons. ok, i'll read the last 30 seconds. go to my friend, go ahead,

but i, you know, my book building a just world older and you know my 25 principles of international order. i think that it was mr. biden and mr. blanking were to get a chance and look at those 25 principles. you got a road map for peace in ukraine, but of course they are so caught in their own when that it's very difficult. what you need is the 3rd party. you need an air delgado, you need a francisco who would mediate, well, i freight, you know, i'm, i blank and in by no politically illiterate. that's a problem here. gentlemen, that's all the time we have here. i want to many thanks them i guess, and assemble, geneva, and in belgrade. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c. and next time, remember crosstalk with

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a while. we are, which are ours. we make, you know, i'm not going to tell you, you care about me if you care about the play. i wish somebody could just tell me why or lynching beating poverty, why supremacy is disgusting for the people in mississippi voted on a wire. and 65 percent of the people voted to keep the car why. our purpose is to, to fan a good name and get better help because of these monuments that you see everywhere are not, can, they're not monuments to the can better go their monuments to the, to the soldiers to better. you know, if we're going to be offended by everything, every negative part of our history,

we have to get rid of everything a, a 50 rational service men on their way home from ukrainian captivity after the recent prisoners law will bring you the latest. as soon as they arrive in the capital, hungary, it says there is no agreement with fellow members on a russian energy price gap, which undermined europe's energy security. that some members state threatened to veto restrictions on russian oil imports. and the conflict between the democratic republic of the congo and roberts may soon and east african nations agree to mediate the.