the cross talking to global majority, i'm joined by my guess, oper, desires in geneva. he's our youth and author and former un independent expert on international order. in belgrade we have stephen gaiety is a research associate at the at bell grades institute for european studies and a new stumble. we cross the house on now he is professor at the department of political science and international relations at melton university. welcome general in cross to girls and a fact that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. let me go to you 1st here much been said about the conflict in ukraine. but if you look at the, on an international scale, i see a tipping point a pivot as it were going on here. the recent g 20 meeting and bali is a very good indication when western media said the d 20 is united on ukraine, which is absolutely propaganda. it is not true whatsoever. and if you go into the thick description and look at countries wanted to talk about, they wanted to talk about food. they want to talk about energy. they want to talk about trade. they didn't want to talk about ukraine. but the, the,

the countries that are in the g 7 that are in the g 20, that's all they want to talk about. this is a huge diversion. going on, go ahead. alfred. well, what courageous war continue trying to intensifies in the west? i am really surprised, i live here in geneva, switzerland, and our newspapers. the prevent, there's an ad and the noise should title really follow the new york times from the washington post and cnn, etc. so the informational war in the west, the indoctrination brainwashing in the west is alive and well. now of course growth and function, this is fairly in latin america. the function in africa doesn't function in asia course, love america, asia or the priority we in. we have an internal western corral between the united states,

the europeans and the russians. and basically we have no right through a risk the welfare of the entire planet because of our corral, whether don't it happens to be in rush out or in your crate. i mean, this is an internal matter that should never had led to violence. it's an internal matter, there should have been central pursuant to article 2 paragraph 3 of the un charter, which is the only rules based order that we have. the un charter basically is the world constitution. and i am sick and tired of hearing my secretary general invoke are so called rules based international order. well, for i will, alfred, i've done so. i'm sick and tired of that phrase too because it is vacuous. it has no meaning, and it means i have the rules and you're going to do what i tell you to do. that's

what it means or saving a limb in belgrade. much of what alford said must seem very familiar to you considering how the weather, demonizes, serbia, it's really the same plane book. it just on steroids this time. go ahead in belgrade. exactly. i mean what we're seeing is a last group. busy of neo colonial language, the thing is that everybody knows the phrases we all understand what's what they're actually saying that this is only a re framing of the language a which is supposed to keep the not only the global cells, but i would say all of the political, not politically, non western actors in the world are in the state of submission and in the state of constant extortion or resources. people and juice prevents the changes that are inevitable. and i think that's maybe for the russians

. this war is even a civil war. busy on a, on a, on a close there are on a part of its, of its historical territory. but for the rest of the world, i think this is an anti colonial struggle at 40 anglo american coalition. this is also exit national for their interest. because the, they just don't want to do these with the changes that are in i was a fun in istanbul. turkey is a member of nato. here been turkey is playing a unique role in this situation here. and it's quite commendable, i would say, because you know, it, we are in a multi polar world, and turkey gets it and understands it, and acts as if it is a significant power in its region. and it's acting upon its interest here, even though it's other nato allies don't like it. of course, the e u. it was it 10 days ago, you know, the, the used through, you know, telling the turks not to get, don't cozy up to the russians. i mean,

what about sovereignty to see why agree with what stephen just said here, you know, the sovereignty self determination here. this is something the west talks about, but never practices go ahead and assemble. well, as you said, 30 is a member of nato, and it's been a reliable member of nato, with the 2nd biggest forces. and its armed forces has had enormous experience and all that, but also the political experience at particular within the data world and the western world. holiday, for instance, propagandized thing you saw day diamond eyes was leaders and how they try to basically resort to propaganda on all matters these days. in particular, over the last few decades, they use propaganda as politic my size, you know they, they, they just found ballistic massage. in the formal propaganda across the world. but

the good thing is we in turkey hardly believe in this sort of propaganda anymore because it's been resorted to so many times so frequently that it has lost much of its meaning. yet it is not convinced that it's not convincing at all. do you know, as you said, it's a member of nature of the same time. if you ask the public right from day on, on anything that involves the united states, the public would say, oh, it must be the united states basically that to do the wrong. and the public pose suggested at the beginning of the conflict in ukraine and in inter, into the conflict some months that took the public basically blamed much of the conflict on the united states and its attitude. so it could have been basically dealt with in a peaceful manner that it was preferred by do united states and the rest of

the world, as you said, i don't normally call it take a lot of south, i call it the united whoa united. all right, and i'm going to top top you on that because it's exactly what i was going to ask for be in the global south is popular, but i like global majority. do you like that offer because that's what it is. a global majority mark. there's no question that the, the non western world, it's far more popular than the western world. when we, in the west talk about the international community. we are basically talking on the language we're talking about the united states, canada, europe, australia. we keep the rest of the world. i would like it doesn't exist. latin america, asia and africa. now, the perception of natal are in latin america,

asia and africa totally different from the perception of the nato in europe. where we are subjected to a daily mirage of propaganda. and i think that it is important to make it clear in the general assembly in the security council that after the the solution often wars pack, the nato has no restroom best. they cannot pretend to be a defensive alliance is actually, and i'll think of alliance, and i would go one further because of nato's aggression in europe, flavio and i've gone as non serious because the war crimes and crimes against

humanity committed by nato forces in all of these countries, nato actually qualifies under articles 9 and 10 of the nuremberg stack. you are talking about the london agreement of 8 august 945. now articles 9 and 10 concern criminal organizations. criminal organizations, such as i have helped on in that your money as the, as, as et cetera. now considering the war, crimes that have been committed by nato forces in total impunity, they certainly qualify as a criminal organization and i would like to see em bathroom and then they figure a council actually hold natal. let alfred, let me, let me go down. guess in belgrade said, i mean international law, it's really quite whimsical. how the west uses. international law only mentioned it

when it's to its own purposes and it, and most of the time it's very sloppy also. ok. they really aren't very good at invoking it. they always broken against someone else like war crime trials. i mean it's always a serve. it's never, never anybody out. it is weird. ok. ok. but i'll give you the last minute before we go to the break. go ahead. steven bell. great. now, i mean 70 percent of all the work criminals that were indicted some course were war criminals in the hey we're, we're serving. i would just like to add them to the topic that we just mentioned, nato and 30 some, 2 weeks ago, i was the energy and the 13th boss for assignments and the words i've heard that is basically that. whereas doesn't want to lose the control over to discourse. for instance, i've, i've, i've heard an expert from the united states to say that nato is the good guys club . and zachary, i found i'm coming from from serbia. but here's the words or mr.

robertson, lord or robertson, who was the general secretary of nato. he was using exactly the same language. that's why we lost his former president of serbia use. he talked about international law aggression against that sovereign country. i think what i thought, oh, where were you 15 or 20 years ago with those arguments because we've been saying this for the last 23 years now says 99. right gentlemen, i have to jump in here. we have to go to a hard break enough about hard break. we'll continue our discussion on the global majority. stay with the with this with you or is with you. i'm

with school, with each other still. ah, efficient product in the board in the book there with

ah ah, welcome back to cross sac were all things are considered on peter labelle to major . we're discussing the global majority. ah.

okay, go back to our guests in assemble has on, you know, one of the things that they by the administration brought to the world was this a democracy, burke versus a talk prosy slogan in. that's all that really is here. when it went in, obviously that goes in with the rules based ordered. it's all kind of wrapped up in this kind of discursive nonsense here. but most people don't look at the world that way whatsoever. again, this conflict in ukraine, which i think is prompted by nato. they wanted a conflict. they wanted to bring russia into a conflict, and then they say, they're not part, we're not part of it. we're not, you're not part of that war, but they very much are part of that war. so, but there's a democracy birth, there is a vs at ta chrissy. it doesn't have any residents outside of b, g 7. go ahead and assemble well, that argumentation and that discourse basically doesn't

exist and outside the western world, as you said. but more important, i would say this is, this is a, this is an issue. it is not a convincing argument, given that you see tonight to states need us basically going over to saudi arabia, begging for several things, several papers on this and the other. and at the same time, just as the russian special operation began in ukraine, then you have the united states basically going over to vintage ally again for similar papers and all that. so when it comes to, to, to basically support day at arguments in general. and they use it as part of their effort to, to, to get their geopolitical goals. otherwise, you know,

there is no such division as democracies and good guys and bad guys. and i'll talk to chris's. so we in turkey, don't bite that, talk to for instance, if you are democracies, then does that mean you have no disagreement among your soap? i mean we, we know how it is been also used between turkey and korea. sometimes turkey and greece are both democracy. they are both nato members, but they have a lot of disagreement over the number of issues. so that is not a, that is not something on which you can basically baize at world or that it is not serious argument at all. that's such a good point. alfred because of the west ones it wants. is this a suspension of belief? ok, so you know, the west talks about geo politics but doesn't practice it. okay. the whole world

wants to practice geo politics. your relative strengths, you know, being a member of the international community. and you know what, what washington wants is that, you know, there's the, you don't have any geo politics. we have values and you must accept them that, that just rings hollow. go ahead alfred. we in the west, the particular washington and brussels. we're hypocrites, without realizing it, we believe our own propaganda and brochure, the global majority in the world, demands today. and let's get our priority right. we need immediate ceasefire. we need immediate negotiation. we have here locally or powers, and we cannot afford this constant spiral of escalation. so one might make a mistake along the way, as it almost happened last week when a grania and miss,

i'll it all and, and then you have the issues of article 4 and 5 of the navy are pretty. so what we need is mediation, and i will say thanks to record an article hon. there has been a possibility of reaching some kind of compromise. and we need mediators. i would like to see switzerland step in and immediate, the grain, russia and nato. not only the ring, russia and ukraine, i would like to see pope francisco here mediate and please fax off the my room, which was the motto or the piece of space. and the only end of this war can be through negotiations through compromise. rule of quid pro quo. russia will make sense. the might be cool on my don in

2014 the, the west has been in not in a compromising mood. i don't see why they're going to be in it now. ok. everyone was in the, in the, in the west. they want to say ukraine is a victim or ukraine was a volunteer. it was a nato volunteer. and this is what has happened as a result of stephen. let me go to you. i mean, joseph brown talked about the garden and the jungle. yes, i could, to serbia, i've been to serbia, it's kind of a garden to me. what's going on with that guy? go ahead in belgrade. again, we're, we're going back to this colonial discourse and they're not even realizing that they're using the same or similar analogies. i've heard from i, from robert's cooper in his book, radio nations where he speaks about a modern, pretty modern and. busy postmodern states, we're actually, it is

a lot allowed for the political west, basically to lie and utilize, which really reminded me of what was said about as being the empire of lies. and even when it comes to this and this whole analogy between the data shall 330 in the regimes and, and democracy is on the other side. well, one of the 1st and founding states of ne thought was a fascist regime in portugal, a. busy salsa at the time. so what kind of language is that they are? are they never really followed the rules that they are imposing the rest of the world, but for themselves, they are so, so one rules applied for their behavior. and then there is another set of rules that apply for others. this even even goes with this ideology of less a fair economics or any single component of the latino he, burl thought because there is, i would say,

an export version. and the one that we use at home and, and i think that the trick a work, of course, it works for over 200 years, but it's not working any more. and i think the majority of the global majority had enough and they don't want to follow these rules. so now we have a, i would say, a attempt to physically stop the change. and that is why a so much a weapons as flowing from the. 2 west into ukraine. i believe that ukraine is a victim, but not in the way that probably majority of people there as well. my, my, my, steven my point is it volunteered to do this. it's political class co opted by the west. volunteered to do that, and the consequences were obvious to anyone that had oh, when eyes. okay, that's what makes this conflict so tragic because it never should have happened in the 1st place. december 17th of last year. to do ultimatums,

we need to talk because it's getting it bad, they wouldn't listen thoughts or wrapping rapidly running out of time. much aside, what do you think about what i just said in assemble? while i would say ukraine complex could have been prevented. there's no question about it, and in the end, the sort of compromise whoever is going to mediate with is going to be is going to prove that point that it could have been prevented. drive from the beginning, after all, you know, for instance, think about a solution to the ukraine crate crisis. it can go on. on the one hand, you had the sort of whole case where the world interesting laid out those. those include the baltic states in poland and others including britain and biden's. how's, seems to be quite a d y that was on we keep hearing the. ready united states military and talking.

busy poking in a net least a little bit sensible way. so there seems to be some sort of sort of sobriety coming up within the pentagon. because we heard the pentagon chief saying that ukraine cannot basically push the russians out of ukraine. so the ukraine war aims are not attainable, they're not achievable. and, and it, they automatically suggestion that comes out of it is that there has to be some sort of compromise. and we see lately the cia and the russian for an intelligence service meeting, a non kara, i mean they didn't talk about basketball the day or any other thing they must, they must have spoken about serious matters. you know, with the turkish, she intelligence chief, basically mediating between the 2. i would think in the end this is going to lead

to a compromise where you can use, going to turn into some sort of a federation with 2 federated founding states. and then, you know, ukraine's constitution will declare that the to remain a natural country of some sort. well, if this is going to come to that, then why did you basically cause this war and why did you, oh, why did you be? well, my friend, you're, you're here per year, you're preaching, you know, you're preaching to the choir here, stephen. and belgrade, you want to jump in, go ahead. yes, exactly. it seems to me that there is that the vision that we're not really, that is not so obvious within the last itself. it seems to me that the people in fans are gone and, and similar structures are way more rational compared to the politicians of both in brussels in the navy, those structures and the in the hawkish eastern european nathan member states. because they are the ones trying to sat and sell, send the signals. ok,

let's talk about it. let's not underestimate russia's power. let's not escalate the conflict. whereas the politicians are those who are constantly putting oil to the fire. and i would like to see how this development goes. i'm very curious about the role of your mask here, because let me just let me jump in here. i never have faith in these politicians are all the foods ok. i'll read the last 30 seconds. go to you, my friend, go ahead but i, you know, my book building a just world older and you know, my 25 principles of international order. i think that it's a mr. biden and mr. blanket and we're to get a chance and look at those 25 principles. you've got a road map for peace in ukraine, but of course they are so caught in their own where that it's very difficult.

what you need is the 3rd party. you need an original guy. you need a full of francisco who would mediate, well, i spray, you know, i'm, i, blank and, and by no politically illiterate. that's a problem here, gentlemen, that's all the time we have here. i want to many thanks them i guess in assemble, geneva, and in belgrade and thanks. so our viewers are watching us here at r t c. and next time remember crosstalk ah, ah ah, picked up william for me to have with them for to begin. that's what i said if celia was this because they get to school, you need to give you the got through the new year. oh for g, like, teach their way. know for me teaching should to school and you have to that is from

google was valuable to put the she's mama wishing to achieve and when you moved. but the woman was moment william with push lots and lots of putting them on there. glad to move them with the continuum was just, i guess one of the most of the young there were did some of our studies through bickerson brought and he said, a shy finish. this is just bullshit for a few i'm of national wouldn't become saying to do friday the use of my blue origin republic before movies for sure. tremendous a little bit of good with the russians state. little never. i've stivers on the north lansky

with within the 55 when. okay, so mine is gonna be the one else calls with. we will ban in the european union, the kremlin. yup. machines. the state aren't russia for date, and ortiz spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube said with me, ah ah

ah, a not, not the why you. why do you easy while friend? ah. yeah. do you have one slide? yes. south. yeah. rush a south with a new dock. awesome boys. now watch them for me at that. i'll pull up right pete on that is emma? yeah. pulls guy from sheila kim's room. she thought you said a yes. my thought watching in that again the audio

fortune pretty up my be a lot about it more in just a natural ah ah, to be released from ukrainian captivity following the latest prisoner swap. we hear their stories 1st complain between the democratic republic of the congo on rebel groups may soon end. as east african nations agreed to mediate the rebels withdrawal from occupied areas. yes it is. the most important thing for us is that we want peace so that our children who remain in the east of the country, our mothers, fathers, the children, older brothers will live in peace. we need help israeli forces demolish.