welcome to cross pac, were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle at the recent g 20 meeting and bali. the west did all it could with the help of corporate media to isolate russia . all their efforts came to nothing. in fact, the opposite happened. russia was a welcome participant nato's proxy war in ukraine as the united much of the global south. it's nato, against the world, the cross talking the global majority. i'm joined by my guess up. are desirous in geneva. he's our youth, an author, and former un independent expert on international order. in belgrade we have stephen guys, he is a research associate at the at bell grades institute for european studies at an stumble. we cross the house on now, he is professor at the department of political science and international relations at mel tip university. welcome gentlemen, cross girls and effect. that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. let me go to you 1st thing much been said about the conflict in

ukraine, but if you look at the on an international scale, i see a tipping point a pivot as it were going on here. the recent g 20 meeting and bali is a very good indication when western media says that d 20 is united on ukraine, which is absolutely propaganda. it is not true whatsoever. and if you go into the thick description and look at countries wanted to talk about, they wanted to talk about food. they want to talk about energy. they want to talk about trade. they didn't want to talk about ukraine. but the, the, the countries that are in the g 7 that are in the g 20, that's all they want to talk about. this is a huge diversion. going on. go ahead. alfred. well, and they, what information war continues intensifies in the west. i am really surprised, i live here in geneva, switzerland, and our newspapers, the curriculum, and the noise should title really follow the new york times on the one of those and

cnn, etc. so the informational war in the west, the indoctrination brainwashing in the west is alive and well that of course are some function necessarily in latin america. the function in africa doesn't function in asia course. love america shows that other priority we in, we have an internal western corral between the united states, the europeans and the russians. and basically we have no right through a risk the welfare of the entire planet because of our corral, whether don't it happens to be in rush out or in your crate. i mean, this is an internal matter that should never had led to violence. it's an internal matter, there should have been central pursuant to article 2 paragraph 3 of the un charter,

which is the only rules based order that we have. the un charter basically is the world constitution. and i am sick as hard of hearing. my secretary general invoke are so called rules based international order. well, for i will alfred, i've done so. i'm sick and tired of that phrase too because it is vacuous. it has no meaning, and it means i have the rules and you're going to do what i tell you to do. that's what it means or saving a limb in belgrade. much of what alford said must seem very familiar to you considering how the weather, demonizes, serbia, it's really the same plane book. it just on steroids this time. go ahead in belgrade. exactly. i mean, what we're seeing is a last group of neo colonial. busy language, the thing is that everybody knows the phrases we all understand what's what they're actually saying that this is only a re framing of the language

a which is supposed to keep the not only the global cells, but i would say all of the political, not politically non western actors in the world are in the state of submission and in the state of constant extortion or resources. people and juice prevents the changes that are inevitable. and i think that maybe for the russians, this war is even a civil war. busy on a, on a, on a close, there are on a park that its of its historical territory. but for the rest of the world, i think this is an anti colonial struggle at 40 anglo american coalition. this is also exit national for their interest. because the, they just don't want to do a piece with the changes that are in the us on in istanbul. turkey is a member of nato. here been turkey is playing

a unique role in this situation here. and it's quite commendable, i would say, because you know, it, we are in a multi polar world, and turkey gets it and understands it in acts is if it is a, a significant power in its region, and it's acting upon its interest here. even though it's other nato allies don't like it, of course the e u. it was it 10 days ago, you know, the, the used through, you know, telling the turks not to get no cozy up to the russians. i mean, what about sovereignty to see why agree with what stephen just said here, you know, the sovereignty self determination here. this is something the west talks about, but never practices go ahead and assemble. well, as just said 30 is a member of nato, and it's been a reliable member of nato, with the 2nd biggest forces. and its forces has had enormous experience and all that. but it has also to pollute the experience at particular

within the mental world. and the western world holiday for instance, propagandized thing you saw day diamond eyes was leaders and how they try to basically resort to propaganda on all matters these days. in particular, over the last few decades, they use propaganda as barley stick size. you know, they just found bothers the size in the form of propaganda across the world. but the good thing is we in turkey hardly believe in this sort of propaganda anymore, because it's been resort to so many times so frequently that it has lost much of its meaning. yet it is not convinced that it's not convincing a told, you know, as you said, it's a member of nature of the same time. if you ask the public right from day on, on anything that involves the united states, the public would say, oh,

it must be the united states basically that to do the wrong. and the public pose suggested at the beginning of the conflict in ukraine and in inter, into the complex some months that took the public basically blames much of the conflict on the united states and its attitude. so it could have been basically dealt with in a peaceful manner that it wasn't preferred by do united states and then the rest of the world, as you said, i don't normally call it global south, i call it the united whoa united. all right, hang on. i'm going to copy and i'm going to top you on that because it's exactly what i was gonna ask for be in the global south is popular. but i like global majority do like that alfred because that's what it is. the global majority mock. there's no question that the, the non western world, it's far more popular than the western world. when we,

in the west talk about the international community. we are basically talking on the language we're talking about the united states, canada, europe, australia. we keep the rest of the world. i would like it doesn't exist. latin america, asia and africa. now, the perception of natal are in latin america, asia, and africa totally different from the perception of the nato in europe, where we are subjected to a daily mirage of propaganda. and i think that it is important to make clear in the general assembly in the security council that after the the solution often wars

pack, the nato has no rental investment. and they cannot pretend to be a defensive alliance is actually an offensive alliance. and i would go one further because of nato's aggression. in europe, flavio not gone as non serious because of the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by nato forces. in all of these countries, nato actually qualifies under articles 9 and 10 of the norm berg stack. you're talking about the long term agreement of 8 august 945. now articles 9 and 10 concern criminal organizations. criminal organizations such as i have helped on in that a few your,

many as the, as, as et cetera. now, considering the war, crimes that have been committed by nato forces in total, impunity, they certainly qualify as the criminal organization. and i would like to see em bathroom events in they figure a council actually hold natal. let alfred, let me, let me go down. guess in belgrade said, i mean international law. it's really quite whimsical. how the west uses international law. only mention it when it's to its own purposes and it and most of the time it's very floppy also. ok. they really aren't very good at invoking it. they always broken against someone else like, you know, war crime trials. i mean it's always a serve. it's never, never anybody out there. it is weird. ok. ok. but i'll give you the last minute before we go to the break. go ahead. steven bell. great. now i mean 70 percent of all the war criminals that were indicted. some of them, of course,

weren't war criminals in the hey, we're, we're serving. i would just like to add them to topics that were just mentioned nato and 30 some, 2 weeks ago, i was energy and the 13th boss for assignments and the words i've heard that is basically that the where doesn't want to lose the control over to discourse for instance, i've, i've, i've heard an expert from the united states to say that nato is the good guys club . and zachary, i found chill coming from your topic from serbia, hears of words or, ah, mr. robertson, lord or robertson, who was the general secretary of nato. he was using exactly the same language that so more than i lost his former, a president of serbia youth. you talked about international law aggression against that star in country. i think what i thought, oh, where were you 15 or 20 years ago with those arguments because we've been saying this for the last 23 years mouse is 99. right gentlemen. i have to jump in here. we have to go to a hard break and ask about hard break. we'll continue our discussion on the global

majority. stay with our t ah ah, in we will need to come to russian state to never. i've stayed as on the most i'm seeing with within the 55 when. okay, so 9 is 2000 speedy. one else with we will van in the european union, the kremlin media machine. the state aunt rush up to date and school ortiz spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest and with

loan. oh, when i was showing wrong, when okay, just a yes. to shave an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, them would important to have with them with regard to the city of celia was this because they did just wanting to give the career in new year. oh for g for teach their way, know i'm reaching out. sure to school and you've cheated us from google valuable.

would you repeat the question is mama wishing to achieve? i'm a new movie but the woman was mullin. mom on william armstrong from bush lots and lots of them all. they're glad to book many her what the continuum will just i get a month or so the most of the young they were did some of our study to the curse and brought a shirt finish. this is jessica with national wouldn't become say to do friday is a month where you order a book before we move a shirt and shenice. give us a little bit of induction, isn't this? ah, welcome back to cross sac. were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle from and you were discussing the global majority. ah

okay, let's go back to our guests in assemble. hassan, you know, one of the things that they buy new administration brought to the world was this a democracy, burke versus a talk prosy slogan in. that's all that really is here. when it went in, obviously that goes in with the rules based ordered. it's all kind of wrapped up in this kind of discursive nonsense here, but most people don't look at the world that way whatsoever. again, this conflict in ukraine, which i think is prompted by nato. they wanted a conflict. they wanted to bring russia into a conflict. and then they say they're not part, we're not part of it. we're not, you're not part of that war, but they very much are part of that war. so, but this is a democracy. birth is a versus it talk prosy. it doesn't have any residents outside of b, d 7, go ahead and assemble all that argumentation. and that discourse basically doesn't basically next

and outside the western world, as you said. but more importantly, i would say this is, this is a, this is an issue. it is not a convincing argument, given that you see the united states need us basically going over to saudi arabia, begging for several things, several papers on this and the other. and at the same time, just as the russian special operation began in ukraine, then you have the united states basically going over to vintage again for similar papers and all that. so when it comes to, to basically support their arguments in general. and they use it as part of their effort to, to, to get their jo, political goals. otherwise, you know,

there is no such division as democracies and good guys and bad guys all talk right, autocracies. so we in turkey don't by that talk to for instance, if you are democracies, then does that mean you have no disagreement among your soap? i mean, we, we know how it is being also used between turkey and greece. sometimes turkey and greece are both democracy. they are both nato members, but they have a lot of disagreement over the number of issues. so that is not a, that is not something on which you can basically baize at world order as it is not serious argument at all. that's such a good point, alfred because we're at the west ones it wants. is this a suspension of belief? ok, so you know, the west talks about geo politics but doesn't practice it. ok. the whole world wants to practice geo politics. your relative strengths, you know, being

a member of the international community. and you know what, what washington wants is that, you know, there's the, you don't have any geo politics. we have values and you must accept them that, that just rings hollow. go ahead alfred. we in the west, the particular washington and brussels. we're hypocrites, without realizing it, we believe our own propaganda and brochure, the global majority in the world, demands today. and let's get our priority right. we need immediate ceasefire. we need immediate negotiation. we have here locally or powers and we cannot afford this constant spiral of escalation. so one might make a mistake along the way, as it almost happened last week, when a grainy and miss,

i'll it all and, and then you have the issues of article 4 and 5 or grenade or treaty. so what we need is mediation, and i will say thanks to record an hour to hon. there has been a possibility of reaching some kind of compromise. and we need mediators. i would like to see switzerland step in and immediate, the grain, russia and nato not only the ring, russia and ukraine. i would like to say pope francisco here mediate and lead packs or p my room, which was the local or the piece of was failure. and the only end of this war can be through negotiations, through compromise rule at quid pro quo. russia will make it well, since the my, in the code on my don in 2014, the, the west has been not in

a compromising mood. i don't see why they're going to be in it now. ok. everyone was in the, in the, in the west. they want to say ukraine is a victim or ukraine was a volunteer. it was a nato volunteer. and this is what has happened as a result of stephen. let me go to you. i mean, joseph brown talked about the garden and the jungle. i could to serbia, i've been to serbia, it's kind of a garden to me. what's going on with that guy? go ahead in belgrade again, we're going back to this colonial discourse and then even realizing that they're using the same or similar analogy, as i've heard from her, from robert's cooper in his book, radio nations where he speaks about a modern, pretty modern and. busy postmodern states, we're actually, it is a lot allowed for the political west, basically to lie and utilize which really are reminded me of what,

what is said about as being the empire of lies. and even when it comes to this, this a whole analogy between dictatorship, our 3 theory and the regimes and, and democracy is on the other side. well, one of the 1st and founding states of ne thought was a fascist regime in portugal. busy of charles a salsa at the time. so what kind of language is that they are? are they never really followed the rules that they are imposing the rest of the world, but for themselves they are so, so one rules applied for their behavior and then there is another set of rules that apply for others. this even even goes with this ideology of less a fair economics or any single component of the, the, the lesson he, burl thought because there is, i would say, an export version. and the one that we use at home. and,

and i think that the trick a work, of course, it works for over 200 years, but it's not working any more. and i think the majority to the global majority had enough and they don't want to follow these rules. so now we have a, i would say, a attempt to physically stop the change and that is why a so much a weapons, a is flowing from the west into ukraine. i believe that ukraine is a victim, but not in the way that probably majority of people there as well. my, my, my back to stephen and my point is it volunteered to do this. it's political class co opted by the west. volunteered to do that and the consequences were obvious to anyone that had oh, been eyes. okay, that's what makes this conflict so tragic because it never should have happened in the 1st place. december 17th of last year. to do ultimatums, we need to talk because it's getting it bad. they wouldn't listen, thought term,

you know, wrapping rapidly, running out of time. that's a side. what do you think about what i just said in assemble? while i would say ukraine complex could have been prevented, there's no question about it. and in the end, the sort of compromise whoever is going to mediate with is going to be is going to prove that kind that it could have been prevented. drive from the beginning, after all, you know, for instance, think about a solution to the ukraine crate crisis. it can go on. on the one hand, you had the sort of whole case where the world interestingly though those, those include the baltic states in poland and romania and others, including britain and the biden's. how's, seems to be quite a d y? that's why we keep hearing the. ready united states military and talking,

poking in a net least a little bit sensible way. so there seems to be some sort of sort of sobriety coming up within the pentagon. because we heard the pentagon chief saying that ukraine cannot basically push the russians out of ukraine. so the ukraine war aims are not attainable, they are not achievable. and, and it automatically suggestion that comes out of it is that there has to be some sort of compromise. and we see lately the cia and the russian for an intelligence service meeting, a non kara, i mean they didn't talk about basketball the day or any other thing they must, they must have spoken about serious matters. you know, with the turkish intelligence chief, basically mediating between the 2. i would think in the end, this is going to lead to a compromise where you can, is going to turn into some sort of a federation with 2 federated founding states. and then, you know,

ukraine's constitution will declare that the to remain a natural country of some sort. well, if this is going to come to that, then why did you basically cause this war and why did you, oh, why did you be? well, my friend, you're, you're here per year for your preaching, you know, you're preaching to the choir here, steven and belgrade. you want to jump in, go ahead. yes, exactly. it seems to me that there is a division that we're not really that he's not so obvious within the last itself. it seems to me that the people in fans are gone and, and similar structures are way more rational compared to the politicians, both in brussels in the navy, those structures and the in the hawkish eastern european nathan member states. because they are the ones trying to sat and sell, send the signals. ok,

let's talk about it. let's not underestimate russia's power. let's not escalate the conflict. whereas the politicians are those who are constantly putting oil to the fire. and i would like to see how this development goes. i'm very curious about the role of your mask here, because let me just let me jump in here. i never have faith in these politicians are all the foods ok. i'll read the last 30 seconds. go to my friend, go ahead, but i, you know, my book building a just world older and you know my 25 principles of international order. i think that it was mr. biden and mr. blanking were to get a chance and look at those 25 principles. you got a road map for peace in ukraine, but of course they are so caught in their own when that it's very difficult.

what you need is the 3rd party. you need an air delgado, you need a francisco who would mediate, well, i, you know, i'm, i, blank and, and by no politically illiterate. that's a problem here. gentlemen, that's all the time we have here. i want to many thanks them i guess, and assemble, geneva, and in belgrade and thanks. so our viewers are watching us here at r t c. and next time, remember crosstalk with ah, a story with while we are, which are ours. we make, you know, i'm not going to tell you, you care about me if you care about to play. i wish somebody could just tell me why

they're harold, a lynching beating poverty. why supremacy is the disgusting ambulance? the people in mississippi voted on apply, and 65 percent of the people voted to keep the car and fly or purposes to, to fan the good name and can better tell because of these monuments that you see everywhere or not can. they're not monuments to the confederate government, their mind to the soldiers, to the data. you know, if we're going to be offended by everything, every negative part of our history, we have to get rid of everything. oh i

today i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. foreign companies, quitting russia, a client atm card, so blanton bangs, disconnected from the international payment system, functional hoppey, jermel, donna and euro exchange rates follow up when i check up on a couple more of those. so i would know what the committee met. that evoke missed the pillar invest alyssa could can you see what, i'm not sure. she, a metallica room was bloom and russian business overcome this song. so you know, i bought it in nasty to huddle. she's tremendously just me don't pros voice, bullshit. national productive, not just 0 dash a miracle, what i see for themselves. but when you come, when you with, before you go, then you know in your mind, just keep them out. but she's a cost group when you, when you, when we talk mom just listen to the school. so usually look

a little book, you know, the motion with ukrainians to sniff children life collaborators, do a new chat, thought, which is now being used to target potentially inexpensively. it's ready for says demolish a palestinian elementary school to me. occupied westbank after a court room. it was built illegally, the news post children to flee just before the building was flattened. it used to be home to $23.00 boys and. 2 girls here the they now have to find another place to continue their study. plus the peace agreement between the democratic republic of the.