the me the ah lose. hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter about at the recent g, 20 meeting and bali. the west did all it could with the help of corporate media to isolate russia, all their efforts came to nothing. in fact, the office it happened, russia was a welcome participant, nato's proxy war in ukraine as united much of the global south. it's nato, against the world, the cross talking, the global majority, i'm joined by my guess, oper,

desires in geneva. he's our youth and author and former un independent expert on international order. in belgrade we have stephen gaiety is a research associate at the at bell grades institute for european studies and a new stumble. we cross the house on now, he is professor at the department of political science and international relations at mel tip university. welcome general and cross girls and a fact that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. let me go to you 1st here much been set about the conflict in ukraine, but if you look at the on an international scale, i see a tipping point a pivot as it were going on here. the recent g 20 meeting and bali is a very good indication when western media said the d 20 is united on ukraine, which is absolutely propaganda. it is not true whatsoever. and if you go into the thick description and look at countries wanted to talk about, they wanted to talk about food. they want to talk about energy. they want to talk about trade. they didn't want to talk about ukraine. but the, the, the countries that are in the g 7 that are in the g 20,

that's all they want to talk about. this is a huge diversion. going on. go ahead. alfred. well, evade what information war continues. i'm intensifies in the west. i am really surprised, i live here in geneva, switzerland, and our newspapers, the curriculum, and the noise should title really follow the new york times from the washington post and cnn, etc. so the informational war in the west, the indoctrination brainwashing in the west is alive and well that of course are some function necessarily in latin america. the function in africa doesn't function in asia course. love america. asia, other priority we in, we have an internal western corral between the united states, the europeans and the russians. and basically we have no right through

a risk the welfare of the entire planet because of our corral, whether don't it happens to be in rush out or in your crate. i mean, this is an internal matter that should never have led to violence. it's an internal matter, there should have been central pursuant to article to paragraph 3 of the un charter, which is the only rules based order that we have. the un charter basically is the world constitution. and i am sick and tired of hearing my secretary general in gulker, so called rules based international order. well, for i will, alfred, i've done so. i'm sick and tired of that phrase too because it is vacuous. it has no meaning, and it means i have the rules and you're going to do what i tell you to do. that's what it means or saving a limb in belgrade. much of what alford said must seem very familiar to you

considering how the weather, demonizes, serbia, it's really the same plane book. it just on steroids this time. go ahead in belgrade. exactly. i mean what we're seeing is a last group of. busy neo colonial language, the thing is that everybody knows the phrases we all understand what's what they're actually saying that this is only a re framing of the language which is supposed to keep the not only the global cells, but i would say all of the political, not politically, non western actors in the world and in the state of submission and in the state of constant extortion or resources people and just of prevents the changes that are inevitable. and i think that's maybe for to russians this war is even a civil war. busy on a, on a, on a close there are on

a park that its, of its historical terry ther each box for the rest of the world. i think this is an anti colonial struggle at 40 anglo american coalition. this is also exit national for their interest. because the, they just don't want to do these with the changes that are in the us on in istanbul. turkey is a member of nato. here been turkey is playing a unique role in this situation here. and it's quite commendable, i would say, because you know, it, we are in a multi polar world, and turkey gets it and understands it, and acts as if it is a significant power in its region. and it's acting upon its interest here, even though it's other nato allies don't like it. of course, the e u. it was it 10 days ago, you know, the, the used through, you know, telling the turks not to get, don't cozy up to the russians. i mean, what about sovereignty? see? well, i agree with what stephen just said here, you know,

the sovereignty self determination here. this is something the west talks about, but never practices go ahead and assemble. well, as you said, 30 is a member of nato, and it's been a reliable member of nato with the 2nd biggest forces. and its armed forces has had enormous experience and all that. but it has also the polluted experience at particular within the data world and the western world. holiday for instance, propagandized thing you saw day demo nice was leaders and how they try to basically resort to propaganda on all matters these days. in particular, over the last few decades, they use propaganda as politic my size, you know, they just found it bothers the size in the formal propaganda across the world. but the good thing is we in turkey hardly believe in this sort of propaganda anymore,

because it's been resort to so many times so frequently that it has lost much of its meaning. yet it is not convinced that it's not convincing at all. do you know, as you said, it's a member of nature of the same time. if you ask the public right from day on, on anything that involves the united states, the public would say, oh, it must be the united states basically that to do the wrong. and the public pose suggested at the beginning of the conflict in ukraine and in inter, into the complex some months that took the public basically blamed much of the conflict on the united states and its attitude. so it could have been basically dealt with in a peaceful manner that it wasn't preferred by united states and the rest of the world, as you said, i don't normally call it global south,

i call it the united whoa united. all right, hang on. i'm going to top top you on that because it's exactly what i was going to ask for be in the global south is popular, but i like global majority. do you like that offer because that's what it is. the global majority. there's no question that the, the non western world, it's far more popular than the western world. when we, in the west talk about the international community. we are basically talking on the language we're talking about the united states, canada, europe, australia. we keep the rest of the world. i would like it doesn't exist. latin america, asia and africa. now the perception of natal in latin america, asia and africa totally different from the perception of natal in europe

where we are subjected to a daily mirage of propaganda. and i think that it is important to make it clear in the general assembly in the security council that after the the solution or the warsaw pact, the nato has no restroom. they cannot pretend to be a defensive alliance is actually, and i'll think of all i and then i would go one further because of nato's aggression in europe, flavio and i've gone is done in iraq and libya in theory because the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by nato forces in all of these countries.

nato actually qualifies under articles $9.10 of the nuremberg stat. you are talking about the london agreement of 8 august 945. now articles 9 and 10 concern criminal organizations. criminal organizations, such as i have helped in that figure, many as the as, as et cetera. now considering the war, crimes that have been committed by nato forces in total impunity, they certainly qualify as a criminal organization and i would like to see em bathroom and then they figure a council actually. whole natal. let alfred, let me, let me go down. guess in belgrade and i mean international law, it's really quite whimsical. how the west uses. international law only mentioned it when it's to its own purposes and it,

and most of the time it's very sloppy also. ok. they really aren't very good at invoking it. they always broken against someone else like war crime trials. i mean it's always a serve. it's never, never anybody out. it is weird. ok. ok. but i'll give you the last minute before we go to the break. go ahead. steven belgrade. now, i mean 70 percent of all the work criminals that were indicted. some of them, of course, were war criminals in the hey we're, we're serving. i would just like to add them to topics that were just mentioned nato and 30 some 2 weeks ago. i was an energy and the 13th boss for assignments and the words i've heard that is basically that the where doesn't want to lose the control over to discourse. for instance, i've, i've, i've heard an expert from the united states to say that nato is the good guys club . and zachary, i felt chills coming from your coffee from serbia. years of words or mr. robertson, lord, or robertson,

who was the general secretary of nato. he was using exactly the same language that so more than me last year he's former a president of serbia youth. you talked about international law aggression against that star in country. i think when i thought, oh, where were you 15 or 20 years ago with those arguments because we've been saying this for the last 23 years mouse is like 99. right? gentlemen. i have to jump in here. we have to go to a hard break enough about hard break. we'll continue our discussion on the global majority. stay with ah ah. in the lease hunter, russian state. little never. i've stayed on the no santini, devastation, sunset for a week within the 55 when. okay,

so mine is 2000 speedy when else with we will ban in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on russia today, and split from ortiz food next, even our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube and pinterest and with mm ah, i picked up, would you for me to put them, put the gifts. that's what i said. if celia was this because they did to squint to give you a pretty new year. oh for g, i teach that way. no, i me teaching ship to school, and you've cheated us from google

a fairly poor. would you repeat? the question is wishing to achieve elaine. muslim world, multiple ramon williams with bush. not some of them all day. glad to book many her with the continuum will just i get a month or so the most on the yellow there were did some of of studies to the bickerson bra and he said, a shy finish. this is just those are 42. again, i'm is national, wouldn't become saying to do friday the month where you origin them a book before we move a shirt and schuman yes, it was a little spirit induction. this and this ah welcome back to cross sac. we're all things are considered. i'm peter labelle dramatically. we're discussing the global majority with

okay, let's go back to our guests in assemble. hassan, you know, one of the things that they, by the administration brought to the world was this democracy, birth versus a talk prosy slogan in. that's all that really is here. when it went in, obviously that goes in with the rules based ordered. it's all kind of wrapped up in this kind of discursive nonsense here. but most people don't look at the world that way whatsoever. again, this conflict in ukraine, which i think is prompted by nato. they wanted to conflict, they wanted to bring russia into a conflict, and then they say, they're not part, we're not part of it. we're not, you're not part of that war, but they very much are part of that war. so, but there's a democracy. birth, there is a versus a talk prosy. it doesn't have any residents outside of b, d 7. go ahead and assemble all that argumentation and that discourse basically doesn't basically

sticks and outside the western world, as you said. but more important than i would say this is, this is a, this is an issue. it is not a convincing argument. given that there, you see tonight to states need us basically going over to saudi arabia, begging for several things, several papers on this and the other. and at the same time, just as the russian special operation began in ukraine, that you have the united states basically going over to vintage ally again for similar papers and all that. so when it comes to, to, to basically support their arguments in general. and they use it as part of their effort to, to, to get their geopolitical. ready goals otherwise, you know,

there is no such division as democracies and good guys and bad guys and i'll talk to chris's. so we in turkey, don't buy to talk to for instance, if you are democracies, then does that mean you have no disagreement among your soap? i mean, we, we know how it is been also used between turkey and korea. sometimes turkey and greece are both democracy. they are both natal members, but they have a lot of disagreement over the number of issues. so that is not a, that is not something on which you can basically baize at world order and it is not serious argument at all. that's such a good point, alfred because we're at the west ones it wants. is this a suspension of belief? ok that you know that the west talks about geo politics but doesn't practice it. ok,

the whole world wants to practice geo politics, your relative strengths, you know, being a member of the international community. and you know what, what washington wants is that, you know, there's the, you don't have any geo politics. we have values and you must accept them that, that just rings hollow. go ahead alfred. we in the west, the particular washington and brussels. we're hypocrites, without realizing it, we believe our own propaganda and brochure, the global majority in the world, demands today. and let's get our priority right. we need immediate ceasefire. we need immediate negotiation. we have here locally or powers and we cannot afford this constant spiral of escalation. so one might make a mistake along the way, as it almost happened last week, when a grainy and mess,

i'll it all and, and then you have the issues of article 4 and 5 of the nature of treaty. so what we need is mediation, and i will say thanks to president our hon. there has been a possibility of reaching some kind of compromise. and we need mediators. i would like to see switzerland step in and immediate the grain, russia, and nate will not only be russia and ukraine. i would like to see the pope francisco here mediate and plead packs, or piedmont room, which was the local or the piece of space. and the only end of this war can be through negotiations, through compromised rule quid pro quo. russia will make life

essentially my in the cool on my down in 2014, the, the west has been not in a compromising mood. i don't see why they're going to be in it now. ok. everyone was in the, in the, in the west. they want to say ukraine is a victim or ukraine was a volunteer. it was a nato volunteer. and this is what has happened as a result of stephen. let me go to you. i mean, joseph brown talked about the garden and the jungle. i could to serbia, i've been to serbia, it's kind of a garden to me. what's going on with that guy? go ahead in belgrade again we're, we're going back to this colonial discourse and they're not even realizing that they're using the same or similar analogy as i've heard from her, from robert's cooper in his book, radio nations where he speaks about a modern, pretty modern and. busy postmodern states, we're actually, it is

a lot allowed for the political west, basically to lie and utilize which really are reminded me of what, what is said about as being the empire of lies. and even when it comes to this, this a whole analogy between the data shall 330 in the regimes and, and democracy is on the other side. well, one of the 1st and founding states of ne thought was a fascist regime in portugal, a. busy salazar at the time. so what kind of language is that they are? are they never really followed the rules that they are imposing to the rest of the world, but for themselves they are so, so one rules applied for their behavior and then there is another set of rules that apply for others. this even even goes with this ideology of less a fair economics or any single component of the, the lesson he, burl thought because there is, i would say, an export version. and the one that we use at home. and i think that the trick

a work, of course, if it weren't for over 200 years, but it's not working any more. and i think the majority to the global majority had enough and they don't want to follow these rules. so now we have a, i would say a attempt to physically stop the change and that is why a so much a weapons is flowing from the. 2 west into ukraine. i believe that ukraine is a victim, but not in the way that probably majority of people there as well. my, my, my, steven my point is it volunteered to do this. it's political class co opted by the west. volunteered to do that, and the consequences were obvious to anyone that had oh, when eyes. okay, that's what makes this conflict so tragic because it never should have happened in the 1st place. december 17th of last year. to do ultimatums,

we need to talk because it's getting a bad, a wouldn't listen. thoughts for me, wrapping rapidly, running out of time, much aside, what do you think about what i just said in this temple? while i would say ukraine complex could have been prevented. there's no question about it, and in the end, the sort of compromise, wherever it is going to mediate with is going to be, is going to prove that point that it could have been prevented. drive from the beginning. after all, you know, for instance, think about a solution to the ukraine crate crisis. it can go on. on the one hand, you had the sort of whole kish world. and interestingly though, those, those include the baltic states in poland and others, including britain and the bottoms. how's, seems to be quite a d y that was on we keep hearing the. ready united states military and talking.

busy poking in a net least a little bit sensible way. so there seems to be some sort of sort of sobriety coming up within the pentagon. because we heard the pentagon chief saying that ukraine cannot basically push the russians out of ukraine. so the ukraine war aims are not attainable, they're not achievable. and, and it, they automatically suggestion that comes out of it is that there has to be some sort of compromise. and we see lately the cia and the russian foreign intelligence service meeting a non kara, i mean they didn't talk about basketball the day or any other thing they must, they must have spoken about serious matters. you know, with the turkish intelligence chief, basically mediating between the 2. i would think in the end, this is going to lead to a compromise where you can, is going to turn into some sort of

a ration with 2 federated founding states. and then, you know, ukraine's constitution will declare that detail remain a natural country of some sort. well, if this is going to come to that, then why did you basically co cause this war and why did you, why did you be? well, my friend, you're, you're here per year, you're preaching, you know, you're preaching to the choir here, steven and belgrade. you want to jump in, go ahead. yes, exactly. it seems to me that there is a division that we're not really that he's not so obvious within the last itself. it seems to me that the people in bands are gone and, and similar structures are way more rational compared to the politicians of both in brussels, in the nato structures and the in the hawkish eastern european nathan member states . because they are the ones trying to sat and sell the send the signals. ok,

let's talk about it. let's not underestimate russia's power. let's not a escalate the conflict. whereas the politicians are those who are constantly putting oil to the fire. and i would like to see how this development goes. i'm very curious about the role of your mask here, because let me just let me jump in here. i never have faith in these politicians are all the foods ok. i'll read the last 30 seconds. go to you, my friend, go ahead but i, you know, my book building a just world older and you know my 25 principles of international order. i think that it was mr. biden and mr. blanking were to get a chance and look at those 25 principles. you got a road map for peace in ukraine, but of course they are so caught in their own when that it's very difficult.

what you need is the 3rd party. you need an air delgado, you need a full of francisco who would mediate, well, i, you know, i'm, i, blank and, and by no politically illiterate. that's a problem here. gentlemen, that's all the time we have here. i want to many thanks them i guess, and assemble, geneva, and in belgrade and thanks. so our viewers are watching us here at r t c. and next time. remember across stock. ah, ah, a read for the last a while. we're which are ours. we make, you know, listen to you care about me. if you care about to play. i wish somebody could just tell me why or harold

a lynching beating poverty why supremacy is so disgusting. amber. the people in mississippi voted on a wire, and 65 percent of the people voted to keep the car and why our purpose is to to plan a good name and get better child because of these monuments that you see everywhere or not. can they not monuments to the government, their mind to the soldiers, to know if we're going to be offended by everything, every negative part of our history, we have to get rid of everything. i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we

should be very careful about our personal intelligence and the point obviously is to create trust rather than fear a job with artificial intelligence. real somebody with a robot protective own existence with ah ah, well oh oh oh oh, a

ah, with out the headlines on our see international, a lead collaborators through a new chat thought which is now being used to target potentially innocent civilians is where the 4th is demolish of palestinian elementary school in the occupied west bank offer court rules that was built illegally, moved for the children to flee just before the building was it used to be home to 23 boys and girls to hear the job. they now have to find another place to continue their study plus the peace agreement between the democratic republic of the congo.