sucking masts, but you have to see the biggest picture in south africa. you know, we haven't even distribution of wealth. and you have nearly 50000000 of africans living in south africa. and you have a few millions of non africans. and sir, however you have, like i said, the uneven distribution of wealth. so 90 percent of the wealth goes towards whites and on africans. that's a recipe for disaster. now in recent years, whistleblowers politicians and critics have accused facebook of a slew of things from facilitating drug and human trafficking, allowing extremist groups to coordinate online fueling conspiracy theories and misinformation and promoting even eating disorders. now facebook denies many of these allegations are they say they're issues that are more complicated than they appear to be. former facebook executive francis hogan, testified in front of

a senate subcommittee in october. that facebook is, in fact damaging girls body image, dividing the nation and allowing extremists to thrive even worse, that the company knows they're doing this and they choose to largely ignore it. and so let's take a listen actually to this testimony from francis hogan here today, because i believe facebook's products harm children, stoked division and week in our democracy. yesterday we saw facebook taken off the internet. i don't know why i went down, but i know that for more than 5 hours, facebook wasn't used to deepen, divides to stabilize democracies and make young girls and women feel bad about their bodies. francis hogan has led the most arguably threatening scandal and facebook history. and recently the former facebook executive and a whistleblower spoke to daniel mo, tongue, and is calling for solidarity with non unionized content moderators in africa. the

2 met at an event in london that was organized by mo, tongues attorneys. but it's interesting here because we know now that the tale of 2 whistleblowers who are completely different, but who are bound together by a common experience and a single company. hogan was a top executive at one of the biggest social networking sites in the world, while mo tongue, on the other hand, was a part of the company's more invisible workforce. about 15000 people, often in developing countries. now they both have spoken out about their ordeal in the press quite a bit. but a lawyer representing facebook's parent company, meta called on a judge to quote crack the whip unquote against the company, requesting a gag order to prevent mo tongue. from speaking to the press, are you why do you think facebook is trying to silence mo tongue in this case? but as let hogan speak freely. well, that's a typical slap suit, isn't it? i'm with scissors. we're all around the world. and we tried to actually get the

legislation in order to prevent such a slob suits against whistleblowers eve, the canter sciences by physically killing us. you know, that would try to intimidate as by any other means that can be fake news. calculus, initial effect, news, or slop, since it's a standard procedure that they follow. so this is something that you've seen in your experience, but now i want to talk about the media and how it's praise the efficacy of it's a i systems in the past. mark zuckerberg is even told congressional hearings, at least in march of last year, that the company relies on a i to weed out about 95 percent of heat speech content. and that it wants to get it's a i technology to a human level of intelligence. but according to hogan and mo tongue, this is just a smoke screen that obscures the work done by thousands of human moderators some who even suffer from severe mental issues they say, which come as a result of their work. what's your take on this?

i can tell you now that i keep my kids away from face lucas. my 2nd asked suffered her from facebook's head of speech when my identity was, you know, this was out a couple of years ago, you know, asked that was a blur who blizzard whistle on, on human rights violations, african police force. and i was horrified to open the 1st book. you know, there was a systematic propaganda against me and there was no control. i've tried to write to z and you know, officials on facebook. i cannot get any reply and eventually i had to leave with that. it's traumatic and create more and more pressure to, to whistleblowers. absolutely, i can only imagine the type of pressure these whistleblowers are under and it probably deters a lot of other potential whistleblowers from coming forward or their resources in africa to help whistleblowers or their private organizations like your blueprint

for free speech that can help whistleblowers in africa. well, john, recently we, i started it in a public awareness campaign over the last a year or 2 in nor did to assist further in south africa. i'm currently, there is a new legislation already form legislation though, which the whistleblower protection and public disclosure. but i'll be honest to you, i, i truly believe that it's for the privileged and elite, ah, eric, i came to the stood that certain ensures in south africa are peaky, and choosing only celebrity case, and that is tragic and the left a lot of lead seat whistleblowers to dry i'm. we have a recent term, you know, story all the late there,

but be that the koran who i go to assassinate it in front of your house in front of your daughter because she becoming whistleblower and supervisor whistle on a corruption and procurement of for medical 80 major medical aid, full coverage, it was terrible them in case like that and actually said as a mrs, we say us, you know us ari in blueprint before. you know, south africa stop killing also blurs visits. there's just no support. at the moment, we're trying a burst to help them, but it's difficult. it's difficult, it's a tall order. thank you, ari, but don't go away. ari de nicholas will return after the break to discuss his own whistle blower story, where he revealed the existence of death squads. that's right. death squads that were murdering people, suspected of minor crimes in south africa when he did that. his own life and the

lives of his family members were immediately put in danger. stay tune. 2 2 2 2 2 2 for ah, garage in business? only 50 but then we will find that out with fish. remember, boston you are good. good. i didn't miss the ward with key at the windy ocean. just keep the pros. this to the dealer, molly computer cranes give us a letter that was put in a row, spoke with of classes to phone us in the full could i get you. i need video with

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ah, the 1st time in history and entire countries culture has been canceled to the very modern weapon council culture. really desperate. wonderful. i will, sheffield my last will thought in william frog yet just misleading the with the phrase now particularly refers to counseling russian culture. yet them know what to create the fuel because it can when you're miles for fuel which of over your choice . so that the most of the temperature london e normally would rush has created over the past 1500 years. there's no question

partially condemned, reviled and rejected. to sort of like a will of bell. there's a lot closer on a whole bunch. thank you said a little short list. joining total condemnation, gross daily and now includes dostoevsky to cascade shostakovich that i need to you all the pool left. but yes, you can see that what the time will you do a bomber lee? you're not going to do that a little bit more of a look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, accept where such orders at conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we

should be very careful about our personal intelligence at the point, obviously is to place trust rather than fear i would like to take on various job with artificial intelligence, real summoning with ah, the robot must protect its own existence with oh, was recently munoz curtis, imagine if you speak russian, keep your voice down while out and about a quarter. don't put your human symbols on display a little space each night. all right,

so you guys don't talk to strangers. i avoid noisy gatherings and rallies a marsh. we've eaten your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty because you'll russian a little detail. glad to with being a by need. so i wasn't sure if i need specific social can sign with a with

we're back with the whistleblowers. i'm john curio under apartheid south africa police for notorious for extra judicial killings and for the routine use of torture against political dissidents. only later did it emerge that these same techniques were being used well after the fall of apartheid when the victims were only suspected of criminal behavior and minor criminal behavior. at that, ari dinny cas began secretly documenting the atrocities he witnessed when he was an auxiliary policeman. and he was soon forced to flee south africa for greece, where he posted all the videos he recorded on youtube. he blew the whistle on his own co workers in the south african police. and they tried to label him a liar and a disgruntled employee. but for ari denique, his and other whistleblowers, some things are either right or they're wrong. there's no grey area. and what he was witnessing the police killing of men who had not even been formally accused of a crime,

was just plain wrong. he decided to go public knowing what the cost was going to be to himself and to his family. now we're rejoined by our guest, ari denique. his. he's a research fellow at blue print for free speech, r e. tell us about your case. what did you do that made you blow the whistle? saint john? well, in 2001. ah, it was invited to join 3rd reserve police force. now to me that was a great opportunity. since i come from a family of 4 use officers. i mean, my brother was a police officer, my uncle, my causing so everybody was a will use officer. now i was the giggles of family. i was think there was a computers. but in south africa that, that what you and your ice and i joined the force now in 2004 i was, i witnessed a,

the 1st torture of the units and it was horrific. it was terrible. i mean, i grew up in greece, up until 17, in the democratic country, and you know, docile to well be brought up some. so when a, so a and african suspect he was a suspect of stone and laptops, been stripped naked bass into a chair, and then police officers putting a bug over his head and suffocate him. you know, that was at any point for me. so what i did at this point was, at the time the smart forms just are coming outs up to cut my smartphone. and i pretend i was looking to my mother in greece in greek. now, you know, the guys knew this greek, you know you all speak to his family overseas so that he was suspicious at the same time as as going ella manna, which means halla? mum, i took 3 shots through the video clips of the actually torture. no hard, they discover me at the time. i will be here talking to you. so after that i did

what i know now it's a textbook, internal disclosure. i went to my commanding officer who was also a supposed close friend of mine. and i think you look those guys, he neither the criminals, they deemed gross valid of human rights. this with a jing and i saw him the video clip, the men, you know, he just laughed. and you said that my boys, that's how we'll make progress. get rid of it. of course i didn't. that was a 1st time that i become, it was floor and that's what started mob problems in south africa. you were talking about that pivotal moment when you saw police putting a bag over this person's head. and you made a decision right there to become a whistleblower. did you take into consideration the long term effects from this and how it might impact your life and the lives of your family members? and what would you say the most challenging aspect of this has been for you at the time?

had no idea what it was simpler was. they demonology whistleblower did not exist. my vocabulary and internal disclosure, public disclosure didn't exist. recovery. i wasn't trained about it. and nobody had ever told me what to do. it would disappoint tanya's movement. and that is the difference between whistleblowers and bathing formers. a whistleblower is a citizen of consciousness. ok. we follow conscious. and at the time i didn't know what the future will bring. i didn't know the repercussions the dancer was in, i just acted. and obviously, i asked it us, i felt like it was harassing to do it. thus for i did, we sought knowing the dangers that will follow later on are in, in 2015. the greek government asked me to help them write a new whistleblower protection law. and so i went to greece 3 or 4 times that year

. in one of those meetings i was seeing the minister of justice when we were speaking. i kept using the word whistleblower and finally he stopped me and he said, what exactly is this word you keep using whistleblower? and so i explained what it was and he said, oh, you mean like a rat or a snitch? and i said no, not at all, like a rat or a snitch. we had a separate conversation about what to call a whistleblower in the greek language. the word that we came up with translates to sentinel of the public trust. i think that best describes what a whistleblower is, whether you intend to be a whistle blower or not is irrelevant. if you make a revelation that reports on waste fraud abuse illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. you are a whistleblower. now, what they don't tell you is what's going to happen to psychologically after you make that revelation, we heard about daniel mo, tongue, and the fact that he had p t s d, which he still suffers from. what did you go through after you made your revelation?

and especially after you realised that you were going to have to leave south africa with your family in order to save yourselves. johnny was a nightmare. i'm off soft a suffer saw such a hard dilation that's. i mean, i ain't up living like a safe in the middle the night with my wife a literally were we were, you know, taken away from by a colleague a soft. can greg actually actually smuggle us to johannesburg from durban, with his scar, keep buried with his own credit card for the one with ticket t grease. and i can tell you after i landed, i actually went down on my knees and i kissed the ground. that wasn't. but the problem for me started when i decided while i was increased to have this african authorities prosecute those people responsible for human rights violations. and

that's all a how, how big lose because i am, i am a living example of how not to handle whistleblowers. and we saw from from p t s d a both be my wife i have been attending, you know, over the i'm, you know, over the internet or with a slavic, and a doctor or some, you know, sack and psychological and consultations to try to be able to know how to breathe broadly and how to control our fears. i'm, it's nothing is a process, especially when you have young children and families on the way. so it's how to really tell and especially when you left, you know, i am protected and you been a full by the authorities and you become the scapegoat due to political and you know, interest, it's complicated. and eventually the whistleblower becomes the escape goat. so

it is a very complicated process to digest. absolutely true. r e. i happened to meet with an american medical whistleblower, and she told me the p t s. d was the most difficult and most unexpected part of her experience. she said that she has struggled with depression since she went public with her revelations and nobody but other whistleblowers really understands why she's having a hard time. and in my experience, and i know in years as well, that's an ongoing theme among whistleblowers feelings of depression and abandonment . a feeling of having to fight the whole world by yourself. what advice would you give to other people considering blowing the whistle to protect their mental health? john, i've been asked this question before and especially motivational speeches. when advocates for whistleblowers by vice now. but i'm 51 years old and i've

dealt with wish, blowing over 20 years is know your rides, know your look a lot worse and make sure that she know what you getting into. so do your homework . first. bombs have changed. we know have secure mechanisms or protection secure mechanisms for whistleblowers to do anonymous tipping or of, of public disclosure. we have now an in europe, a directive full, the protection of whistleblowers act, 2019. so we have mechanisms in place for exactly this problem. so the whistle blow doesn't go through that ordeal. and to me discuss with your family. make sure you have your family support. make sure you know what, what you're going into and be prepared for everything. and make sure you have an escape plan. and also i will say i'm

i it's, it's difficult, it's difficult now because i get emotional through that process. single family 1st . it impacts everybody. it doesn't just impact the one person who's coming out and speaking their truth. and i would imagine that every circumstance is different. so overall, would you say the essence of whistleblower trauma is rejection and persecution. do you think that the key to the recovery process involves empowerment in communal acceptance? why? what do you think? will a separate the 2? let's separate it that we have whistleblowers at the law office directly in danger . so that might be a certainly assassination attempt against them. now those people for that other lives will have to look behind the buck. ok. that is something that you cannot get over. any constants therapy for each and you got you have the other side,

were you suffer humiliation? you suffer a character snoozed about by fake news media. you have been isolated by your community, your family, and also you have drop down your a standard of living. you've lost her job, you are unemployed, you have lost your income. so that's not a different subject altogether. the to different things. so it depends on which category you fell into. that a certain degree of stress and in albany, posttraumatic stress disorder. the biggest take away here is for whistleblowers or people considering coming forward them with important information is to protect themselves. ale press and his railey journalist wrote a book a few years ago, offering psychological profiles of for whistleblowers throughout history. the book is called beautiful souls. he found that all whistleblowers share several traits in

common. whistleblowers have an unusually well defined sense of right and wrong, far more well defined than the population at large. they tend to see the world in cases of black and white. they never regret blowing the whistle even if the cost to them is very high. and sadly, they almost never make a financial come back. would you agree with this assessment? has that been your experience soon? absolutely. i mean, i was a prominent business africa, not any great when i was 17. and because i was, you know, like us that gig in electronics and it was a hardworking imogen, greek, or car that creates business by the age of 2425. our mom businessman, house mancha, and it was, you know, i had no family, no liabilities, and but 2008 because i decided to offered to my community and be a volunteer for the police force, mo, love to just, you know, crumble under my feet. i've lost everything i had to do to go and xle was virtually

nothing. i had to start again in a country which was strange country to me. i mean, i was away for 20 years. i grew up educate myself and i become immense of africa so . so africa was my country, and then i start to process, you know, informational hard to adapt in a new country in a language. i almost forgot about it. and it's also, i become a parent i had to, you know, kitchen away. so it was, it was extremely difficult because the years go by because you change environment a bins vomas' so drastically. if it's very likely you're going to recover financially, maybe one a 1000000. i don't see us recover and as the right when our living ass good us or better. now that than before, when before would was a whistle. ari denique is thank you so much for joining us. that's all we have for

you today. we'll catch you next time. i'm john kerry aku and this has been the whistleblowers. ah. 2 2 2 ah oh a while we have which are ours we make, you know, i'm not know, let you to really you care about me. if you care about to play. i wish somebody could just tell me why their hair on a lynching beating poverty, why supremacy is just the disgusting ambulance. the people in mississippi voted on

a wire, and 65 percent of the people voted to keep the car and why. our purpose is to defend the good name and the confederates held because of these monuments that you see everywhere are not. can they not monuments to the can better go there monuments to the, to the soldiers, to the battery? you know, if we're going to be offended by everything, every negative part of our history, we have to get rid of everything to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race is on a very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time. time to sit down and talk with

them. would important good with silly was this because they did to squint to give you a pretty new year low for if i teach the way, know i'm reaching out sure to school and you have to get it from google or valuable to put the sheila, washington chin and then you a william formula from sterling from push lots and lots of a lot of trouble with the continued. i'm just idea i use one or should i lost a little of study to look for carson brought? i used to finish this is just a fraction of when it comes to use it until you are a sure sherman yes, it was a little bit of induction.

a with a disturbing images up ahead, a civilian is killed in the latest ukrainian bombardments of done yet as he has to show the region 39 times in the past 24 hours. we report on the c a u. s. military base in syria comes on the attack that comes, that made rising tensions between nato allies took here in the u. s. over in africa, gonna analysis a shift towards using gold instead of the u. s. dollars for his own purchases. also in the program this our school 10.