the unionization effort for better pay and working conditions. he claims that meta and semi are quote, subjected to current and former content moderators to forced labor and human trafficking for labor, unquote. and he suffers from post traumatic stress disorder as a result of his work. now in an application, the law firm said sam, i also carried out a deceptive recruitment process by opening up vacancies and failing to mention the nature of the job that successful applicants would do. the moderators at the note, nairobi hub or source from a number of different countries, including ethiopia, uganda and somalia. and they work day and night working as outsourced facebook content moderators. they're basically the emergency response force for social media . they're in charge of viewing and removing illegal or band content from facebook before it's seen by the average user. we're now joined by ari denique us a research fellow at blue print for free speech and a fellow whistleblower. ari,

we will get to your story in the 2nd half of this show. but 1st, what's your take on the lawsuit that this man and his former colleagues are claiming or victims of forced labor, human trafficking, and union busting, vicious soaking off. but you have to see the big picture in south africa. you know, we haven't even distribution of wealth. and are you house nearly 50000000 of africans living in south africa? and you have a few 1000000 south, non africans. and sir, however you have a, like i said, the uneven distribution of wealth. so 90 percent of the wealth goes towards whites and, and africans. that's a recipe for disaster. now in recent years, whistleblowers politicians and critics have accused facebook of a slew of things from facilitating drug and human trafficking, allowing extremist groups to coordinate online fueling conspiracy theories and

misinformation and promoting even eating disorders. now facebook denies many of these allegations are they say they're issues that are more complicated than they appear to be. former facebook executive francis hogan, testified in front of the senate subcommittee in october. that facebook is, in fact damaging girls body image, dividing the nation and allowing extremists to thrive even worse, that the company knows they're doing this and they choose to largely ignore it. and so let's take a listen actually to this testimony from francis hogan here today, because i believe facebook's products harm children stoked division and we can our democracy. yesterday we saw facebook get taken off the internet. i don't know why i went down, but i know that for more than 5 hours, facebook wasn't used to deepen, divides to stabilize democracies and make young girls and women feel bad about their bodies. for instance,

hogan has led the most arguably threatening scandal and facebook history. and recently the former facebook executive and a whistleblower spoke to daniel mo, tongue, and is calling for solidarity with non unionized content moderators in africa. the 2 met at an event in london that was organized by mo, tongues attorneys. but it's interesting here because we know now that the tale of 2 whistleblowers who are completely different, but who are bound together by a common experience and a single company. hogan was a top executive at one of the biggest social networking sites in the world, while mo tongue, on the other hand, was a part of the company's more invisible workforce. about 15000 people, often in developing countries. now they both have spoken out about their ordeal. busy in the press quite a bit. but a lawyer representing facebook's parent company, meta called on a judge to quote, crack the whip unquote against the company, requesting a gag order to prevent mo tongue for speaking to the press. are you why do you

think facebook is trying to silence mo tongue in this case? but as let hogan speak freely. well, that's a typical slap suit, isn't it? i'm with scissors. we're all around the world. and we tried to actually get the legislation in order to prevent such a slob suits against whistleblowers eve, the canter sciences by physically killing us. you know, that would try to intimidate as by any other means that can be fake news. calculus, initial effect, news, or slop, since it's a standard procedure that they follow. so this is something that you've seen in your experience, but now i want to talk about the media and how it's praise the efficacy of it's a i systems in the past. mark zuckerberg is even told congressional hearings, at least in march of last year, that the company relies on a i to weed out about 95 percent of heat speech content. and that it wants to get it's a i technology to

a human level of intelligence. but according to hogan and mo tongue, this is just a smokescreen that obscures the work done by thousands of human moderators some who even suffer from severe mental issues they say, which come as a result of their work. what's your take on this? i can tell you now that i keep my kids away from facebook is my 2nd. i suffered her from facebook's head of speech when my identity was you know, this was out a couple of years ago, you know, asked the whistleblower who blew the whistle on on human rights by letters of african police force. and i was horrified to open the 1st book. you know, there was a system metric, provide guns against me and there was no control. i've tried to al, right t z and, you know, officials on facebook, i cannot get any reply and a vessel you had to live with it. it's traumatic and creates more and more pressure

to, to whistleblowers. absolutely, i can only imagine the type of pressure these whistleblowers are under and it probably deters a lot of other potential whistleblowers from coming forward or their resources in africa to help whistleblowers or their private organizations like your blueprint for free speech that can help whistleblowers in africa. well, john, recently we, i started a, you know, public awareness campaign over the last a year or 2 in nor did to assist further in south africa. i'm currently, there is a new legislation already form legislation though, which the whistleblower protection and public disclosure. but i'll be honest to you, i'm, i truly believed that it's for the privileged and elite, ah, i rec, i came to the, stood that certain age years in south africa,

are picky and choosing on the celebrity case. it's very tragic and the left. a lot of lead seat whistleblowers to dry eye. we have fair recent term. you know, story all the late there, but better the koran. who i go to assassinate it in front of your house in front of your daughter because she become, it was similar in sibley that whistle on a corruption and procurement of medical 80, which medical aids full coverage. it was terrible that i'm in case like that. and actually says a mrs. we say us in us ari in brooklyn, before you know, south africa stop killing, also blurs visits. there's just no support. at the moment we're trying a burst to hobson, but it's difficult. it's difficult, it's a tall order. thank you, ari, but don't go away. ari de nicholas will return after the break to discuss his own

whistle blower story, where he reveal the existence of death squads. that's right. death squads that were murdering people, suspected of minor crimes in south africa. when he did that, his own life and the lives of his family members were immediately put in danger, stating. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah, lisa canter, russian state patrol never. i've side as i phone and ignore some scheme with 55 with will ban in the european union. the kremlin media machine,

the state on russia for date, and c, r t spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band on youtube and pinterest, and with me a minute thought at home. i mean, usually a little boy, boy, if you'll be with like a, do you live muscles do killer corn? the initial be, well, if club masika had yellow post on zillow, while diaz can use that. but by you, i knew you did origin,

but he also still listed on those of your lewis a similar to like once you've got on the beach just listed below you. what i see, the student bosses though group you medation, says diesel tutorial, gumbo sub ah, i'm my name is frank from a recent philadelphia got in the movement in the age of 13 or 14 to we were violent torsional people because we believe there were this race were here 1st and this is our country being part of that movement. i got your sense of power.

when i felt powerless, we got attention when i felt invisible and accepted when i talked to level life after hey, is an organization that was founded by 4 o skinhead, neo nazi white supremacists in the u. s. in canada. and they found each other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get out was 2 parts to getting out of a violent extreme was the 1st part of disengagement which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is d. radicalization we're belief systems audiology are removed. it was very impactful when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, he heard my story did nothing to challenge it without awe . we're back with the whistle blowers. 2 i'm john kerry. aku under apartheid,

south africa's police were notorious for extra judicial killings. and for the routine use of torture against political dissidence. only later did it emerge that these same techniques were being used well after the fall of apartheid when the victims were only suspected of criminal behavior and minor criminal behavior. at that, ari dinny cas began secretly documenting the atrocities he witnessed when he was an auxiliary policeman. and he was soon forced to flee south africa for greece, where he posted all the videos he recorded on youtube. he blew the whistle on his own co workers in the south african police. and they tried to label him a liar and a disgruntled employee. but for ari denique, his and other whistleblowers, some things are either right or they're wrong. there's no grey area. and what he was witnessing the police killing of men who had not even been formally accused of a crime, was just plain wrong. he decided to go public knowing what the cost was going to be to himself and to his family. now we're rejoined by our guest,

ari denique is he's a research fellow at blue print for free speech. r e. tell us about your case. what did you do that made you blow the whistle? thank you, john. well, in 2001. ah, it was invited to join the reserve police force. now to me that was a great opportunity since i come from a family of 4 use officers. i mean, my brother was a police officer, my uncle mads, causing so everybody was of will yourself. so now i was the geek of the family. i was think there was a computers, but in south africa. but the what you and your eyes and i joined the force now it 2004. i was, i witnessed a, the 1st torture of the unit and it was horrific. it was terrible. i mean, i grew up in greece, up until 17, in a democratic country and you know,

thus of the well being brought up. so, when i saw an african suspect, he was a suspect of historian laptop, the stripped naked place into a chair. then yes, officers putting a bag over his head and suffocate him. you know, that was a turning point for me. so what i did at this point was, at a time for smartphones just are coming outs up, took out my smartphone, and i pretend i was talking to my mother in greece in greek. now, you know, the guys knew this greek, you know you all speak to his family overseas so that he got suspicious at the same time as as going alana, which means halla. mum, i took 3 sorts through video clips, or they actually torture no hard. they discover me at the time. i will be here talking to you. so after that i did what i know now it's a textbook, internal disclosure. i went to my commanding officer who was also

a supposed to close friend of mine. and i think you look, those guys, he knows are the criminals, they doing gross, valid of human rights. this was a doing and i saw him the video cli, the men, you know, he just laughed and you said that's my boys. that's how we'll make progress. get rid of it. of course i didn't. that was a 1st time that i become a was floor and that's what started my problems in south africa. you were talking about that pivotal moment when you saw police putting a bag over this person's head. and you made a decision right there to become a whistleblower. did you take into consideration the long term effects from this and how it might impact your life and the lives of your family members? and what would you say the most challenging aspect of this has been for you at the time? i had no idea what it was, a blur was, they demonology whistleblower did not exist. my vocabulary,

an eternal disclosure. public disclosure didn't exist. my vocabulary, i wasn't trained about it and nobody had ever told me what to do. it would just put tanya's movement in that is the difference between whistleblowers and bathing formers a. whoso blur is a citizen of consciousness. ok. we follow conscious. and at the time, i didn't know what the future will bring, a didn't know the repercussions, the dancer was in as acted. and obviously i asked it us, i felt like he was harassing to do it thus for a deed without knowing the dangers, it will follow later on r e. in 2015, the greek government asked me to help them write a new whistleblower protection law. and so i went to greece 3 or 4 times that year . in one of those meetings i was seeing the minister of justice when we were speaking. i kept using the word whistleblower, and finally he stopped me and he said, what exactly is this word?

you keep using whistleblower and so i explained what it was and he said, oh, you mean like a rat or a snitch? and i said no, not at all like a rat or a snitch. we had a separate conversation about what to call a whistleblower in the greek language. the word that we came up with translates to sentinel of the public trust. i think that best describes what a whistleblower is. whether you intend to be a whistle blower or not is irrelevant. if you make a revelation that reports on waste fraud abuse illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. you are a whistleblower. now, what they don't tell you is what's going to happen to psychologically after you make that revelation, we heard about daniel mo, tongue, and the fact that he had p t s d, which he still suffers from. what did you go through after you made your revelation? and especially after you realised that you were going to have to leave south africa with your family in order to save yourselves. johnny was a nightmare. i'm off soft

a suffer saw such a heart as dilation that's, i mean i end up leaving like a see from the middle the night with my wife. literally were we were, you know, taken away from, by a colleague as african greek actually actually smuggle us to johannesburg from durban, with his scar, keep buried with his own credit card for the one with ticket t grease. and i can tell you after i landed, i actually went down on my knees and i kissed the ground. that wasn't. but the problem for me started when i decided while i was increased to have this african authorities prosecute those people responsible for human rights violations. and that's all a how, how break loose because i am, i am a living example of how not to handle whistleblowers. i was suffering from p

t. s d a both be my wife. i have been attending, you know, over the i'm, you know, over the internet sir, with us traffic and a doctor or some, you know, psych, a psychological and consultations to try to be able to know how to breathe broadly and how to control our fears. i'm, it's nothing is a process, especially when you have young children and families on the way. so it's how to really tell and especially when you left, you know, i'm protected and you been a full by the authorities and you become the scapegoat due to political. you know, interest, it's complicated and eventually the whistleblower becomes the escape. goat. so it is a very complicated process to digest. absolutely true. r e.

i happened to meet with an american medical whistleblower and she told me the p t s . d was the most difficult and most unexpected part of her experience. she said that she has struggled with depression since she went public with her revelations and nobody but other whistleblowers really understands why she's having a hard time. and in my experience, and i know in years as well, that's an ongoing theme among whistleblowers feelings of depression and abandonment . a feeling of having to fight the whole world by yourself. what advice would you give to other people considering blowing the whistle to protect their mental health? don't i've been asked to squish before is priscilla motivational speeches. when advocates for whistleblowers but vice now. but i'm 51 years old and i've dealt with wish, blowing over 20 years is know your rides, know your look

a loss and make sure that she know what you getting into. so do your homework. first. bombs have changed. we know have secure mechanisms or protection secure mechanisms for whistleblowers to do anonymous tipping or of, of public disclosure. we have now an in europe, a directive full, the protection of whistleblowers act, 2019. so we have mechanisms in place for exactly this problem. so there was a blo, doesn't go through that ordeal. and to me discuss with your family, make sure you have your family support. make sure you know what, what you're going into and be prepared for everything. and make sure you have an escape plan. and also i will say am i it's, it's difficult, it's difficult now because i get emotional through that process. think of your

family 1st. it impacts everybody. it doesn't just impact the one person who's coming out and speaking their truth. and i would imagine that every circumstance is different. so overall, would you say the essence of whistleblower trauma is rejection and persecution. do you think that the key to the recovery process involves empowerment in communal acceptance? why? what do you think will is separate the 2 that separated to we have whistle blows at the laugh is directly in danger. so there must be a sunny assassination attempt against them. now those people for that other lives will have to look behind the buck. ok. that is something that you can get over to me, constance therapy for each. and you got you have the other side, were you suffer humiliation? you suffer a character fitness involved by fake news media. you have been isolated by your

community, your family, and also you have dropped down your a standard of living, you've lost her job, you're unemployed, you have lost your income. so that's not a different subject altogether that to different things. so it depends on which category you fell into. there is certain degree of stress and, and obviously post traumatic stress disorder. the biggest take away here is for whistleblowers or people considering coming forward them with important information is to protect themselves. ale press, and his railey journalist wrote a book a few years ago, offering psychological profiles of for whistleblowers throughout history. the book is called beautiful souls. he found that all whistleblowers share several traits in common. whistleblowers have an unusually well defined sense of right and wrong. far more well defined than the population at large,

they tend to see the world in cases of black and white. they never regret blowing the whistle even if the cost to them is very high. and sadly, they almost never make a financial come back. would you agree with this assessment? has that been your experience soon? absolutely. i mean, i was a prominent business africa, not me greatly to when i was 17. and because i was, you know, like us to kick in electronics and it was a hardworking imogen, greek, or car that creates business by the age of 2425. i have my own business, mon house mancha. and it was, you know, i had no family, no liabilities, and but 2008 because i decided to offered to my community and be a volunteer for the police force, mo, love to just, you know, crumble under my feet. i've lost everything. i had to do to go and xle was virtually nothing. i had to start again in a country which was strange country to me. i mean,

i was away for 20 years. i grew up educate myself and i become immense of africa so . so africa was my country, and then i start to process, you know, information of how to adapt in a new country in a language. i almost forgot about it. and also i become a parent i had to, you know, kitchen away. so it was, it was extremely difficult because the years go by because you change environment a business vomas' so drastically. it is very unlikely you're going to recover financially. it be $1.00 to $1000000.00. i don't see us recover. and as the right we now living asked good us or better now the than before, when before will be the whistle. ari denique, as thank you so much for joining us. that's all we have for you today. we'll catch you next time. i'm john kerry. aku and this has been the whistleblowers

ah. 2 2 2 ah no one else. sure thing wrong when i just don't hold a to see how this thing becomes an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds of horn, we choose to look for common ground. ah, i think that would important to have with them. would we get that to reset? it surely was this because they did to squint

a pretty new year for here. i teach the way, know i'm reaching out to school and you have cheated us from god left valuable. would you put the machine? huh. wish i chin. i'm when you moved, but the woman lumala moved from william with armstrong from bush not to not slip them. all. they're glad to blame you. what the company did. i'm was just, i did i used one or more scholarly, imo, and i wanted someone to study for carson brought. are you serious? i finished. this is just those report to you here. i'm actually putting your gums when you do friday of the month where you are in a shirt international devil. she'll fiddle spirit invention. ah, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's trees even

foundation, let it be an arms race is on, often very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, accept where such order to conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. at the point obviously is too great truck rather than fear i would like to take on various jobs with artificial intelligence. somebody with a robot must protect its own existence with

a while we have which are ours we make, you know, i'm not know, let you to really care about me. if you care about the play, i wish somebody could just tell me why they're all hate lynching beating poverty, why supremacy is disgusting. and the people in mississippi voted on a flyer and 65 percent of the people voted to keep the current flag. our purpose is to in the good name and the confederates held because of these monuments that you see everywhere or not can, but they're not monuments to better government,

their monuments, to the soldiers, to the data. you know, if we're going to be offended by everything, every negative part of our history, we have to get rid of everything. a disturbing images help ahead. a civilian is killed and the latest ukrainian bombardments have done yet. has he has to show the regent 59 times in the past 24 hours. we report from the c a u. s. military base in syria comes under attack, and that comes to me driving tensions between nato allies and america. over in africa gonna announce as a possible shift towards using gold instead of us dollar. such is also coming up this our pre.