and i knew that they wanted to help other guys get out. there's 2 parts to getting out of a violent extremist group. the 1st part is disengagement, which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part does d, radicalization. work belief systems. audiology are removed, it was very powerful. when someone finally came along, no fear, no judgement. she heard my story did nothing to challenge it. validate ah, today we're going to tell you about whistle blowing in africa. not only are there brave whistleblowers calling out government and corporate malfeasance, but they're doing so a great personal risk will speak with a whistleblower from south africa who literally put his life on the line to report on police criminality. i'm john kerry. aku, you're watching the whistleblowers. 2 2 2 2

2 a suit is now been filed against american social media giant meta and samar. it's main contractor for content moderation in africa. the companies are being sued over claims of exploitation and a union busting law firm representing facebook whistleblower, daniel mo. tongue, a former content moderator, who was making $2.20 an hour. originally from south africa, he was working in kenya, but then was allegedly laid off after he led more than 100 of his colleagues in a unionization effort for better pay and working conditions. he claims that meta and semi are quote, subjected to current and former content moderators to forced. busy labor and human trafficking for labor, unquote. and he suffers from post traumatic stress disorder as a result of his work. now in an application, the law firm said sam, i also carried out a deceptive recruitment process by opening up vacancies and failing to mention the nature of the g. that successful applicants would do the moderators at the note,

nairobi hub or source from a number of different countries, including ethiopia, uganda and somalia. and they work day and night working as outsourced facebook content moderators. they're basically the emergency response force for social media . they're in charge of viewing and removing a legal or band content from facebook before it's seen by the average user. we're now joined by our e. denique us a research fellow at blue print for free speech and a fellow whistleblower. ari, we will get to your story in the 2nd half of this show. but 1st, what's your take on the lawsuit that this man and his former colleagues are claiming or victims of forced labor. human trafficking and union busting, visits, soaking off. but you have to see the big picture in south africa. you know, we haven't even distribution of wealth and you have nearly 50000000

off africans living in south africa. i. you have a few 1000000 south, non africans. and sir, however you have a like i said, the uneven distribution of wealth. so 90 percent of the wealth goes towards whites and, and africans. that's a recipe for disaster. now in recent years, whistleblowers politicians and critics have accused facebook of a slew of things from facilitating drug and human trafficking, allowing extremist groups to coordinate on line fueling conspiracy theories and misinformation and promoting even eating disorders. now facebook denies many of these allegations are they say they're issues that are more complicated than they appear to be. former facebook executive francis hogan, testified in front of a senate subcommittee in october. that facebook is, in fact damaging girls body image, dividing the nation and allowing extremists to thrive even worse,

that the company knows they're doing this and they choose to largely ignore it. and so let's take a listen actually to this testimony from francis hogan here today, because i believe facebook's products harm children, stoked division and week in our democracy. yesterday we saw facebook get taken off the internet. i don't know why i went down. i know that for more than 5 hours, facebook wasn't used to deepen, divides you stabilize democracies, and make young girls and women feel bad about their bodies. for instance, hogan has led the most arguably threatening scandal in facebook history. and recently the former facebook executive and a whistleblower spoke to daniel mo, tongue, and is calling for solidarity with non unionized content moderators in africa. the 2 met at an event in london that was organized by mo, tongues attorneys. but it's interesting here because we know now that the tale of 2 whistleblowers who are completely different, but who are bound together by a common experience and a single company. hogan was

a top executive at one of the biggest social networking sites in the world. while montague, on the other hand was a part of the company's more invisible workforce, about 15000 people, often in developing countries. now they both have spoken out about their ordeal. busy in the press quite a bit. but a lawyer representing facebook's parent company, meta called on the judge to quote, crack the whip unquote against the company, requesting a gag order to prevent mo tongue from speaking to the press. are you, why do you think facebook is trying to silence mo tongue in this case? but as let hogan speak freely, was that a typical slough suit isn't it? i'm with scissors. we're all around the world. and we tried to actually get the legislation in order to prevent such a slap suits against whistleblowers eve, the canter sciences by physically killing us. you know, that would try to intimidate as by any other means that can be fake news. calculus,

initial effect, news, or substance. it's a standard procedure that they follow. so this is something that you've seen in your experience, but now i want to talk about the media and how it's praise the efficacy of it's a i systems in the past. mark zuckerberg is even told congressional hearings, at least in march of last year, that the company relies on a i to weed out about 95 percent of heat speech content. and that it wants to get it's a i technology to a human level of intelligence. but according to hogan and mo tongue, this is just a smokescreen that obscures the work done by thousands of human moderators some who even suffer from severe mental issues they say, which come as a result of their work. what's your take on this? i can tell you now that i keep my kids away from facebook as my 2nd asked suffered her from facebook's head of speech when my identity was, you know,

this was out a couple of years ago, you know, asked that was a blur who blizzard whistle on on human rights valesh just as african police force . and i was horrified to open 1st book. you know, there was a systematic for my guns against me and there was no control. i've tried to al, right to z and, you know, officials on facebook. i cannot get any reply and a vessel you had to leave with that. it's traumatic and creates more and more pressure to, to whistleblowers. absolutely, i can only imagine the type of pressure these whistleblowers are under and it probably deters a lot of other potential whistleblowers from coming forward or their resources in africa to help whistleblowers or their private organizations like your blueprint for free speech that can help whistleblowers in africa. well, john, recently we, i started a, you know, a public awareness campaign over the last

a year or 2 in nor did to assist further in south africa. i'm currently, there is a new legislation already form legislation though, which the whistleblower protection and public disclosure. but i'll be honest to you, i'm a truly believed that it's for the privileged and elite, ah, eric, i came to the stood that certain edge yos in south africa, are picky and choosing only celebrity case. and that is tragic. and the left a lot of lead seat whistleblowers to dry and we have a recent term you know, story off the late there, but better the koran who i go to assassinate it in front of your house in front of your daughter because she become, it was similar and supervisor whistle on

a corruption and procurement of for medical aid. you mentioned medical aid, full coverage. it was terrible them in case like that. and actually there is a mrs. we say us in us ari in blue. and before, you know, south africa stop killing usa blurs visits. there's just no support at the moment. we're trying our best to help them, but it's difficult. it's difficult, it's a tall order. thank you, ari, but don't go away. ari de nicholas will return after the break to discuss his own whistle blower story, where he revealed the existence of death squads. that's right. death squads that were murdering people, suspected of minor crimes in south africa when he did that. his own life and the lives of his family members were immediately put in danger. stay too. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

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ah, we're back with the whistleblowers. i'm john curio under apartheid south africa police, bernard, or yes, for extra judicial killings and for the routine use of torture against political dissidents. only later did it emerge that these same techniques were being used well after the fall of apartheid when the victims were only suspected of criminal behavior and minor criminal behavior at that. ari denique, as began secretly documenting the atrocities he witnessed when he was an auxiliary policeman, and he was soon forced to flee south africa for greece, where he posted all the videos he recorded on youtube. he blew the whistle on his own co workers in the south african police and they tried to label him a liar and a disgruntled employee. but for ari denique, his and other whistleblowers, some things are either right or they're wrong. there's no grey area. and what he

was witnessing, the police killing of men who had not even been formally accused of a crime, was just plain wrong. he decided to go public knowing what the cost was going to be to himself and to his family. now we're rejoined by our guest, ari denique. his. he's a research fellow at blue print for free speech r e. tell us about your case. what did you do that made you blow the whistle? saint john? well in 2001. ah, it was invited to join 3rd reserve police force. now to me that was a great opportunity since i come from a family of 4 use officers. i mean, my brother was a police officer. my uncle might be causing so everybody was of will yourself. so now i was the geek of the family. i was think there was a computers,

but in south africa that the what you and your eyes and i joined the force now. it 2004. i was, i witnessed a, the 1st torture of the unit and it was horrific. it was terrible. i mean, i grew up in greece, up until 17, in the democratic country. and you know, docile to well be brought up so. so when a soul in an african suspect, he was a suspect of stunning laptops being stripped naked bass into a chair, and then police officers putting a bag over his head and suffocate him. you know, that was at any point for me. so what i did at this point was, at the time the smart forms, the dust are coming outs up, took out my smartphone. and i pretend i was talking to my mother in greece in greek . now, you know, the guys knew this greek, you know you all speak to his family overseas so that he got suspicious at the same time as as going ella manna, which means halla?

mum, i took 3 shots through video clips of the actually torture. no hard. they discover me at the time. i will be here talking to you. so after that i did what i know now it's a textbook, internal disclosure. i went to my commanding officer who was also a supposed to close friend of mine. and i think look, those guys, he knows are the criminals, they doing gross, valid of human rights. this with a jing and i saw him the video cli, the men, you know, he just laughed and you said that's my boys. that's how we'll make progress, get rid of it. of course i didn't. that was a 1st time that i become a whistler, and that's what started my problems in south africa. you were talking about that pivotal moment when you saw police putting a bag over this person's head. and you made a decision right there to become a whistleblower. did you take into consideration the long term effects from this and how it might impact your life and the lives of your family members?

and what would you say the most challenging aspect of this has been for you at the time? had no idea what it was, the blur was, they terminology was similar, did not exist. my vocabulary, m, internal disclosure, public disclosure, didn't exist in the recovery. i wasn't trained about it. and nobody had ever told me what to do. it would just point tanya's movement, and that is the difference between whistleblowers and bathing formers. a whistleblower is a citizen of consciousness. ok. we full a conscious and at the time i didn't know what the future will bring. i didn't know the repercussions. the dancer was in, i just acted and obviously i asked it, as i said, like, it was harassing to do it thus for i did without knowing the dangers it will follow later on r e in 2015, the greek government asked me to help them write

a new whistle blower protection law. and so i went to greece 3 or 4 times that year . in one of those meetings i was seeing the minister of justice when we were speaking. i kept using the word whistleblower and finally he stopped me and he said, what exactly is this word you keep using whistleblower? and so i explained what it was and he said, oh, you mean like a rat or a snitch? and i said no, not at all, like a rat or a snitch. we had a separate conversation about what to call a whistleblower in the greek language. the word that we came up with translates to sentinel of the public trust. i think that best describes what a whistleblower is, whether you intend to be a whistle blower or not is irrelevant. if you make a revelation that reports on waste fraud abuse illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. you are a whistleblower. now, what they don't tell you is what's going to happen to psychologically after you

make that revelation, we heard about daniel mo, tongue, and the fact that he had p t s d, which he still suffers from. what did you go through after you made your revelation? and especially after you realised that you were going to have to leave south africa with your family in order to save yourselves. johnny was a nightmare. i'm off soft a suffer saw such a hard dilation that's. i mean, i ain't up living like a safe in the middle. the night with my wife. literally were we were, you know, taken away from, by a colleague as african greek actually actually smuggle us to johannesburg from durban, with his scar, keep buried with his own credit card for the one with ticket t grease. and i can tell you after i landed, i actually went down on my knees and i kissed the ground. that wasn't. but the problem for me started when i decided while i was increased to have this african

authorities prosecute those people responsible for human rights violations. and that's all how, how break loose because i am, i am a living example of how not to handle whistleblowers. i'm, we saw from from p t s d a both be my wife. i have been attending, you know, over there. and you know, over the internet, sir, with an african doctor some, you know, sac and psychological and consultations to try to be able to know how to breathe probably. and how to control our fears. i'm. it's not an easy process, especially when you have young children and family on the way. so it's how really tell and especially when you left, you know, i am protected and you been a full by the authorities and you become the scapegoat due to political you know,

interest, it's complicated. and eventually the whistleblower becomes the escape goat. so it is a very complicated process to digest. absolutely true. r e. i happened to meet with an american medical whistleblower, and she told me the p t s. d was the most difficult and most unexpected part of her experience. she said that she has struggled with depression since she went public with her revelations and nobody but other whistleblowers really understands why she's having a hard time. and in my experience, and i know in years as well, that's an ongoing theme among whistleblowers feelings of depression and abandonment . a feeling of having to fight the whole world by yourself. what advice would you give to other people considering blowing the whistle to protect their mental health?

john, i've been asked this question before and especially motivational speeches. when advocates for whistleblowers my advice now. but i'm 51 years old and i've dealt with wish, blowing over 20 years is know your rides, know your look a lot worse and make sure that she know what you getting into. so do your homework . first. bombs have changed. we know have secure mechanisms or protection secure mechanisms for whistleblowers to do anonymous tipping. or you know, of, of public disclosure. we have now an in europe, a directive full, the protection of whistleblowers act, 2019. so we have mechanisms in place for exactly this problem. so there was a blo, doesn't go through that ordeal. and to me discuss with your family, make sure you have your family support. make sure you know what,

what you going into and be prepared for everything. and make sure you have an escape plan. and also i will say, am i it's, it's difficult. it's difficult now because i get emotional through that process. single family 1st. it impacts everybody. it doesn't just impact the one person who's coming out and speaking their truth. and i would imagine that every circumstance is different. so overall, would you say the essence of whistleblower trauma is rejection and persecution. do you think that the key to the recovery process involves empowerment in communal acceptance? why? what do you think will is separate the 2 that separated? we have whistle blows, of the law office directly in danger. so there must be a sesame, assassination, attempt against them. now, those people for that other lives will have to look behind the buck. ok. that is

something that you can get over to me, constance therapy for each and you got, you have the other side where you suffer humiliation. you suffer a character, snakes involved by fake news media. you have been isolated by your community, your family, and also you have dropped down your a standard of living, you've lost her job, you are unemployed, you have lost your income. so that's not a different subject altogether. the to different things. so it depends on which category you fell into. there is certain degree of stress and in albany, posttraumatic stress disorder. the biggest take away here is for whistleblowers or people considering coming forward them with important information is to protect themselves. ale press, and his railey journalist wrote a book a few years ago, offering psychological profiles of for whistleblowers throughout history. the book

is called beautiful souls. he found that all whistleblowers share several traits in common. whistleblowers have an unusually well defined sense of right and wrong. far more well defined than the population at large, they tend to see the world in cases of black and white. they never regret blowing the whistle even if the cost to them is very high. and sadly, they almost never make a financial come back. would you agree with this assessment? has that been your experience soon? absolutely. i mean, i was a prominent business africa not immigrated when i was 17. it because i was, you know, like us, the gig in electronics and it was a hard working imogen greek or car that create the business by the age of 2425. uh huh. businessman, house mancha. and it was, you know, i had no family, no liabilities, and but 2008 because i decided to offered him a community, be

a volunteer for the police force mo, laugh to see, you know, crumble under my feet. i've lost everything i had to do to go and xle was virtually nothing. i had to start again in a country which was strange country to me. i mean, i was away for 20 years. i grew up educate myself and i become immense of africa so . so africa was my country, and then i start to process, you know, information of how to adapt in a new country in a language. i almost forgot about it. and also i become a parent i had to, you know, kitchen away. so it was, it was extremely difficult because the years go by because you change environment a bins, vomas' so drastically. it is very likely you're going to recover financially. but be one, the 1000000 i don't see us recover an essay right when our living ass good us

or better. now that than before, when before will do the whistle. ari denique is thank you so much for joining us. that's all we have for you today. we'll catch you next time. i'm john kerry aku and this has been the whistleblowers. ah. 2 2 ah ah nelson as well. yeah. wow, dvd wow. finance says. oh boy, you said one slide. yes. south. yeah. rush

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a while we have which are ours. we make, you know, i'm not know, let you to really care about me. if you care about the play. i wish somebody could just tell me why they're all hate lynching the beating poverty why supremacy is disgusting. and the people in mississippi voted on a wire, and 65 percent of the people voted to keep the car flag. our purpose is to play in the good name and get better children because of these monuments that you see everywhere are not can. they're not monuments to the kids better go their

monuments to the soldiers that are, you know, if we're going to be offended by everything, every negative part of our history, we have to get rid of everything. oh, i see international and some graphic, distressing images. some don't, yes, because we report from the scene of some of the latest ukrainian shelling off the russian, telling a local civilian and american military base and syria comes on the attack. and so between nato allies, turkey, i'm the usa. the uncle has targeting of kurdish territories and in africa gone to right now it's, is it possible shift towards using gold instead of the u. s. solar boise international oil purchases. and in india 30 co.