no rush was to go into a war question, which has roger, outcome them if they exchanged in the end of the news news . today we're going to tell you about whistle blowing in africa. not only are there brave whistleblowers calling out government and corporate malfeasance, but they're doing so. a great personal risk will speak with a whistleblower from south africa who literally put his life on the line to report on police criminality. i'm john curiosity. you're watching the whistleblowers. the . 2 2 2 2 a suit has now been filed against american social media giant meta and samar. it's main contractor for content moderation in africa. the companies are being sued over

claims of exploitation and a union busting law firm representing facebook whistleblower, daniel mo. tongue, a former content moderator, who was making $2.20 an hour. originally from south africa, he was working in kenya, but then was allegedly laid off after he led more than 100 of his colleagues in a unionization effort for better pay and working conditions. he claims that meta and semi are quote, subjected to current and former content moderators to forced labor and human trafficking for labor, unquote. and he suffers from post traumatic stress disorder as a result of his work. now in an application, the law firm said sam, i also carried out a deceptive recruitment process by opening up vacancies and failing to mention the nature of the job that successful applicants would do the moderators at the know, i robi hub, our source from a number of different countries including ethiopia, uganda and somalia, and they work day and night working as outsourced facebook content moderators.

they're basically the emergency response force for social media. they're in charge of viewing and removing a legal or band content from facebook before it's seen by the average user. we're now joined by ari denique us a research fellow at blue print for free speech and a fellow whistleblower. ari, we will get to your story in the 2nd half of the show. but 1st, what's your take on the lawsuit that this man and his former colleagues are claiming or victims of forced labor, human trafficking and union busting. this is soaking off, but you have to see the big picture in south africa. you know, i am, we have an even distribution of wealth and you have nearly 50000000 off africans living in south africa. and you have a few millions of non africans. and sir, however you have a like i said,

uneven distribution of wealth. so 90 percent of a wealth goes towards whites and on africans. that's a recipe for disaster. now in recent years, whistleblowers politicians and critics have accused facebook of a slew of things from facilitating drug in human trafficking, allowing extremist groups to coordinate on line fueling conspiracy theories and misinformation and promoting even eating disorders. now facebook denies many of these allegations are they say they're issues that are more complicated than they appear to be. former facebook executive francis hogan, testified in front of a senate subcommittee in october. that facebook is, in fact damaging girls body image, dividing the nation and allowing extremists to thrive even worse, that the company knows they're doing this and they choose to largely ignore it. and so let's take a listen actually to this testimony from francis hogan here today, because i believe facebook's products harm children,

stoked division and week in our democracy. yesterday we saw facebook get taken off the internet. i don't know why i went down, but i know that for more than 5 hours, facebook wasn't used to deepen, divides to stabilize democracies and make young girls and women feel bad about their bodies. prentice hogan has led the most arguably threatening scandal in facebook history. and recently the former facebook executive and a whistleblower spoke to daniel mo, tongue, and is calling for solidarity with non unionized content moderators in africa. the 2 met at an event in london that was organized by mo, tongues attorneys. but it's interesting here because we know now that the tale of 2 whistleblowers who are completely different, but who are bound together by a common experience and a single company. hogan was a top executive at one of the biggest social networking sites in the world, while mo tongue, on the other hand, was a part of the company's more invisible workforce. about 15000 people,

often in developing countries. now they both have spoken out about their ordeal. busy in the press quite a bit. but a lawyer representing facebook's parent company, meta called on a judge to quote crack the whip unquote against the company, requesting a gag order to prevent mo tongue from speaking to the press. are you why do you think facebook is trying to silence mo tongue in this case? but as let hogan speak freely. well, that's a typical slap suit, isn't it? i'm with scissors. we're all around the world. and we tried to actually get the legislation in order to prevent such a slob suits against whistleblowers eve, the canter sciences by physically killing us. you know, that would try to intimidate as by any other means that can be fake news. calculus, initial effect, news, or slop, since it's a standard procedure that they follow. so this is something that you've seen in

your experience, but now i want to talk about the media and how it's praise the efficacy of it's a i systems in the past. mark zuckerberg is even told congressional hearings, at least in march of last year, that the company relies on a i to weed out about 95 percent of heat speech content. and that it wants to get it's a i technology to a human level of intelligence. but according to hogan and mo tongue, this is just a smoke screen that obscures the work done by thousands of human moderators some who even suffer from severe mental issues they say, which come as a result of their work. what's your take on this? i can tell you now that i keep my kids away from face lucas. my 2nd asked suffered her from facebook's head of speech when my identity was, you know, this was out a couple of years ago, you know, asked the whistleblower who blew the whistle on on human rights by letters of african police force. and i was horrified to open the 1st book. you know,

there was a system medic, by guns against me and there was no control. i've tried to al, right to z and you know, officials on facebook. i cannot get any reply and a vessel you had to live with it. it's traumatic increase more and more pressure to, to whistleblowers. absolutely, i can only imagine the type of pressure these whistleblowers are under and it probably deters a lot of other potential whistleblowers from coming forward or their resources in africa to help whistleblowers or their private organizations like your blueprint for free speech that can help whistleblowers in africa. well, john, recently we, i started it, you know, public awareness campaign over the last a year or 2 in nor did to assist further in south africa. i'm currently, there is a new legislation already form legislation though,

which the whistleblower protection and public disclosure. but i'll be honest to you, i'm a truly believed that it's for the privileged and elite. ah eric, i came to the stood that certain a jesus in south africa, are picky and choosing on the celebrity case. it's very tragic and the lift a lot of lead seat whistleblowers to dry. ah, we have for a recent term you know, story all the late there, but better the koran who i got assassinated in front of your house in front of your daughter. because she become, it was a blur and supervisor whistle on a corruption and procurement of medical 80, which medical aids full coverage. it was terrible that i'm in case like that. and

actually there is a mrs. we say us, you know us, ari is blooper before you know, south africa stop killing usa bloss visits. there's just no support at the moment. we're trying our best to help them, but it's difficult. it's difficult. it's a tall order. thank you, ari, but don't go away. ari de nicholas will return after the break to discuss his own whistle blower story, where he revealed the existence of death squads. that's right. death squads that were murdering people, suspected of minor crimes in south africa. when he did that, his own life and the lives of his family members were immediately put in danger. stay to. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 for

ah ah ah

what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race, his on offense, very dramatic development only personally and going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully very difficult time. time to sit down and talk ah we're back with the whistleblowers. 2 i'm john kerry. aku under apartheid, south africa's police were notorious for extra judicial killings. and for the

routine use of torture against political dissidents. only later did it emerge that these same techniques were being used well after the fall of apartheid when the victims were only suspected of criminal behavior and minor criminal behavior at that, ari denique, his began secretly documenting the atrocities he witnessed when he was an auxiliary policeman, and he was soon forced to flee south africa for greece, where he posted all the videos he recorded on youtube. he blew the whistle on his own co workers in the south african police, and they tried to label him a liar and a disgruntled employee. but for ari denique, his and other whistle blowers, some things are either right or they're wrong. there's no grey area. and what he was witnessing the police killing of men who had not even been formally accused of a crime, was just plain wrong. he decided to go public knowing what the cost was going to be to himself and to his family. now we're rejoined by our guest, ari denique. his he is a research fellow at blue print for free speech,

r e. tell us about your case. what did you do that made you blow the whistle? thank you, john. well, in 2001. ah, it was invited to join the reserve police force. now to me that was a great opportunity since i come from a family of 4 use officers. i mean, my brother was a police officer, my uncle, my cousin. so everybody was a voice officer. now i was the geek of the family. i was think there was a computers. but in south africa that, that what you and your ice and i joined the force now in 2004 i was, i witnessed a, the 1st torture of the unit and it was horrific. it was terrible. i mean, i grew up in greece, up until 17, in the democratic country, and you know,

thus on the well been brought up. so, when i saw in an african suspect, he was a suspect of stone and laptops. been stripped naked, placed into a chair, and then police officers putting a bag over his head and suffocate him. you know, that was, it didn't going for me. so what i did at this point was, at a time for smartphones. just start coming out, stop to cut my smartphone. and i pretend i was talking to my mother in greece in greek. now, you know, the guys knew this greek, you know, you all speak to his family overseas. so the biggest species are the same time as us going alana, which means halla mom. i took 3 shots through video clips of the actually torture. no hard, they discover me at the time. i only hear talking to you. so after that, i did what i know now it's a textbook, internal disclosure. i went to my commanding officer who was also

a supposed to close friend of mine. and i think you look, those guys, he knows are the criminals. they doing gross violet of human rights. this with a jing and i saw him the video cli, the men, you know, he just laughed. and you said that my boys, that's how we'll make progress. get rid of it. of course i didn't. that was a 1st time that i become a was floor and that's what started mob problems in south africa. you were talking about that pivotal moment when you saw police putting a bag over this person's head. and you made a decision right there to become a whistleblower. did you take into consideration the long term effects from this and how it might impact your life and the lives of your family members? and what would you say the most challenging aspect of this has been for you at the time? had no idea what it was simpler was. they terminology whistleblower did not exist. my vocabulary and internal disclosure,

public disclosure didn't exist level cadbury, i wasn't trained about it. and nobody had ever told me what to do. it would disappoint tanya's movement. and that is the difference between whistleblowers and bathing formers. a whistleblower is a citizen of consciousness. ok. we follow conscious. and at the time i didn't know what the future will bring. i didn't know the repercussions the dancer was in, i just act it. and obviously, i asked it us, i felt like he was harassing to do it thus for a deed without knowing the dangers, it will follow later on r e in 2015. the greek government asked me to help them write a new whistleblower protection law. and so i went to greece 3 or 4 times that year . in one of those meetings i was seeing the minister of justice when we were speaking. i kept using the word whistleblower and finally he stopped me and he said, what exactly is this word you keep using whistleblower?

and so i explained what it was and he said, oh, you mean like a rat or a snitch? and i said no, not at all, like a rat or a snitch. we had a separate conversation about what to call a whistleblower in the greek language. the word that we came up with translates to sentinel of the public trust. i think that best describes what a whistleblower is, whether you intend to be a whistle blower or not is irrelevant. if you make a revelation that reports on waste fraud abuse illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. you are a whistleblower. now, what they don't tell you is what's going to happen to psychologically after you make that revelation, we heard about daniel mo, tongue, and the fact that he had p t s d, which he still suffers from. what did you go through after you made your revelation? and especially after you realised that you were going to have to leave south africa with your family in order to save yourselves. johnny was a nightmare. i'm off soft

a suffer saw such a heart as dilation that's, i mean, i ain't up living like a see from the middle the night with my wife a literally were we were, you know, taken away from by a colleague us african greg. luckily, actually smuggle us to johannesburg from durban, with his scar, keep buried with his own credit card for the one with ticket t grease. and i can tell you, after i landed, i actually went down on my knees and i kissed the ground. that wasn't, but the problem for me started when i decided while i was increased to have this african authorities prosecute those people responsible for human rights violations. and that's all a how, how break loose because i am, i am a living example of how not to handle whistleblowers. i was suffering from p

t. s d a both be my wife. i have been attending, you know, over the i'm, you know, over the internet or with a suffolk and a doctor or some, you know, sac and psychological and consultations to try to be able to know how to breathe, probably. and how to control our fears. i'm, it's nothing is a process, especially when you have young children and families on the way. so it's how really tell and especially when you left, you know, i'm protected and you been a full by the authorities. if you become the scapegoat due to political, you know, interest, it's complicated, and eventually the whistleblower becomes the escape goat. so it is a very complicated process to digest. absolutely true. r e. i

happened to meet with an american medical whistleblower and she told me the p t s. d was the most difficult and most unexpected part of her experience. she said that she has struggled with depression since she went public with her revelations and nobody but other whistleblowers really understands why she's having a hard time. and in my experience, and i know in years as well, that's an ongoing theme among whistleblowers feelings of depression and abandonment . a feeling of having to fight the whole world by yourself. what advice would you give to other people considering blowing the whistle to protect their mental health? don't i've been asked to squishy foreign, especially motivation speeches. when advocates for whistleblowers, but vice now. but i'm 51 year sold and i've dealt with wish, blowing over 20 years is know your rides, know your look a lot worse and make sure that she know what you getting into. so do your homework

. first. bombs have changed. we know have secure mechanisms or protection secure mechanisms for whistleblowers to do anonymous tipping. or you know, of, of public disclosure. we have now an in europe, a directive full, the protection of whistleblowers act, 2019. so we have mechanisms in place for exactly this problem. so the whistleblower doesn't go through that ordeal. and to me discuss with your family. make sure you have your family support. make sure you know what, what you're going into and be prepared for everything. and make sure you have an escape plan. and also i will say i'm i it's, it's difficult, it's difficult now because i get emotional through that process. single family 1st

. it impacts everybody. it doesn't just impact the one person who's coming out and speaking their truth. and i would imagine that every circumstance is different. so overall, would you say the essence of whistleblower trauma is rejection and persecution. do you think that the key to the recovery process involves empowerment and communal acceptance? why? what do you think? will a separate the 2 that separated, we have whistleblowers of the law office directly in danger. so that might be a sunny assassination attempt against them. now those people for that other lives will have to look behind the buck. ok. that is something that you can get over to me, constance therapy for each. and you got you have the other side, were you suffer humiliation? you suffer a character fitness involved by fake news media. you have been isolated by your

community, your family, and also you have dropped down your a standard of living, you've lost her job, you're unemployed. you have lost your income. so that's not a different subject altogether. the 2 different things. so it depends on which category you fell into. there is certain degree of stress and in albany, posttraumatic stress disorder. the biggest take away here is for whistleblowers or people considering coming forward them with important information is to protect themselves. ale press, and his railey journalist wrote a book a few years ago, offering psychological profiles of for whistleblowers throughout history. the book is called beautiful souls. he found that all whistleblowers share several traits in common. whistleblowers have an unusually well defined sense of right and wrong. far more well defined than the population at large, they tend to see the world in cases of black and white. they never regret blowing

the whistle even if the cost to them is very high. and sadly, they almost never make a financial come back. would you agree with this assessment? has that been your experience soon? absolutely. i mean, i was a prominent business africa, not me greatly to when i was 17. and because i was, you know, like us to kick in electronics and it was a hardworking imogen greek. i whole card that create the business by the age of 24th than you father, her mom, businessman, house mancha. and it was, you know, i had no family, no liabilities, and but 2008 because i decided to offered to my community and be a volunteer for the police force mo, laugh just, you know, crumble under my feet. i've lost everything i had to do to go and xle was virtually nothing. i had to start again in a country which was strange country to me. i mean, i was away for 20 years. i grew up educate myself and i become immense of africa.

so south africa was my country and then asked thoughts to process, you know, information of how to adopt in a new country in a language. i almost forgot about its ants. also, i become a parent. i had to, you know, kitchen the way. so it was, it was extremely difficult because the years go by and because you change environment a business vomas' so drastically, it is very unlikely you're going to recover financially may be won the 1000000. i don't see us recover. and as they arrived, we now living asked good us or better now, but than before, when before will do the whistle. ari denique is thank you so much for joining us. that's all we have for you today. we'll catch you next time. i'm john kerry. aku and this has been the whistleblowers ah.

2 2 ah, ah, i think the little fair with all right. and the speeding a known one rationally with the realization implementation of article 5. no one rational wants to go into more washer, which is logical outcome exchanged in the end of life butter. ah ah, my name is franklin richardson. so daughter got in the movement in the age of 13 or 14. we were violent towards those people because we believed there were this race

were here 1st. and this is our country being part of that movement. i got your sense of power when i felt powerless, we got attention when i felt invisible and accepted when i talked to level life after hey, is an organization that was founded by 4 of skinheads, neo nazi white supremacists in the u. s. in canada. and they found each other and they knew that they wanted to help other guys get out was 2 parts to out of a violent extreme. this 1st part is disengagement, which is where you leave the social group. and then the next part is d. radicalization. work belief systems audiology are removed. it was very impactful. when someone finally came along with no fear, no judgement, you heard my story did nothing to challenge it. validate with

the me watching was controlled. if i give you the shot and showed phenomenon from this day last week, when i scan, when i talk with dr. joe, just session on the my profile is national shylie or when you bought it up on the new me

or oh, i never had an email folder called k in your id call back to your organization and what is your response? i'm proud to be a big big main stand up the last god it was right in this world. i guess i'm a big in the midst of your out and go and what i see just a bunch of homes that i measure your cover. local are state flag, they walk. our biggest so been were stand up for what we believe was was right, mr. rad and coalition,

others are not lacking to mess just there from one of the client knew each person well, the class christian or related me, people need to know the groups like this. do still exist that this have this idea. ology is, is in fact behind a lot of the support for the state flag, we must awaken white race from asleep and mighty. now me a man, mom, mom a matter. just remember one day why he is not going to stand by and watch more and more. there's not the history shows that when he's had enough new stuff, you're like, oh i, i'm not trying to change the k k k mind. i'm not trying to change the league of the south mind. i'm not trying to change the dixie alliances. mind. i'm trying to change.