her a, in a view of defending our traditional will use and also with regard to expressing the will of, for our people who want to leave for their traditional way of life is out for interference. well, it's obviously a double standard, but did see a, you know, i would see kind of game of chess in that ideological urban stand between there are san antonio west. well it see have probably a demonstration of the mental optic. so the current cabinet to prime minister through the cabinet and the scale of say a priorities. so now for us it's so hard to logically explain me, take it as a reality, b and actually things had probably, canada has served as her. i'll stand anesha seed on to interfere with aunt maddow in canadian home affairs. domestic fair,

serv into another fair. so the domestic fair. so father western states said he expected to canada and as a western state. so we'll let her sleep for us. so we want or this is our bit in a, val is on costs all the max, so be sure to watch like, will be back here in cedar. that will be our with ah,

[000:00:00;00] ah, hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on peter lavelle. it would seem we have reached the point of no return. after being the target of sabotage, the north stream pipe winds will be mothball. the mutually beneficial energy relationship, europe and russia had for decades has come to an end. the geopolitical implications are enormous, and europe is the biggest loser. ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess. karen krakowski and mount jackson. she's retired united states air force,

colonel who served at both the n. s a and the office of the secretary of defense. and in washington we have michael maloof. he is a former pentagon senior security policy analyst, all right, process rules and effect. that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate it. i want to start out with karen 1st. karen, it didn't make a lot of news in the west. well actually when the pipelines were blown up, but he didn't get a whole lot of coverage and kind of just disappeared. am in the act of probably the largest industrial sabotaged that i can think of. but it just, you know, went into the ether. everybody forgot about it, rushes just announced that it's going to mothball the thing. there is no energy relationship in the future as far as russia is concerned, when it comes to europe, why would they rebuild those pipeline? someone would just blow it up again. um, i just, you know, in looking at this conflict here, i think the way i can is nato. and particularly the united states. they just thinking tactically,

step by step. they have no real strategy here. and it's only good. it's only creating a river of tears, which the u. s. doesn't necessarily, is impacted in least in the, in the immediate term. it's, these are all act cravin, acts of choice. karen? yes, they are acts of choice and it does appear like you said, to be focused only on tactical steps that aren't really connected to each other. but there is a philosophy that drives the sustainment long term sustainment of american unipolar global power. and they see russia and control of russia's resources and the elimination of rushes, any type of near peer threat, that's part of the process. so, you know, the idea of throwing weapons continuing low level wars. i mean, this was, in fact, this was why we helped the taliban back and 79. you know, let's, we, can russia,

can this isn't, this is a long concept that it says it, it appears very disjointed, very stupid, but it is connected to a way we have done foreign policy for a long time. yes, whitman, michael, it doesn't work. i would go all the way back then, and they're still trying to same a process. you know, the only difference is, you know, and i think it's, it's important to point out for viewers is in the, these adventures in afghanistan in iraq, in syria, in libya, e m. and for the average of western consumers, last citizen, these are just kind of pigments of the remote. it's something you hear on the news . ok. it but, but now this place called ukraine, which nobody cared about in europe and in the united states, all sudden their, their entire lifestyle, their entire prosperity is at stake. here for something that never is never been explained to anyone. why is it important to be supporting this regime that was installed on democratic lee in 2014?

never get that. and of course, you know, the conflicts started on february 24th, but nobody talks about what happened in the 8 years before that. and maybe this is all by design because it's complicated or they would show that this is just another adventure, michael? yes. well, it's a see no evil here. no, we will issue here that we have going there. this is all by a reaction to the, to the impulses by the, by the administration and the, and the goons. he has working for him, namely victoria newland. so lincoln and sherman. they are driving, they've been driving this, and when biden was vice president, he was driving this the service narrative and resulting in that 2014 coo this he still to this day, cannot convince the american people what the national security imperative is of

ukraine cannot do it, and it's, and people have asked, and you never get an answer. it's really much law. so then you cray, it's, it's trying to contain russia even try to change the government. they're all together. even partition by that is the tories for partitioning. he loves it, he will, he envisioned it, or syria is envisioned it for iraq. so that, that, and that what we're seeing here today is that we haven't learned our lessons beginning from the vietnam war in afghanistan. and we, we've left all kinds of equipment and what have you strewed all over asia, all over and, and now ukraine and then in the middle east. and we haven't gained anything from these adventures. and they, and they're just reacting to events. there's no plan by the, by the, by the ministration for them, or even by the bush administration,

with respect to iraq. so this, we haven't learned our lessons and we're doomed to failure. and it's just not going to, it's just not going to work. russia has turned more eastward it is involved in as karen well points out to the unit in terms of a unipolar world order that us, thanks, it's still leading, but it is now turning into a multiple world order that involves the entire eurasia portions. and it's also get a middle eastern countries in gates such as bricks. if they all of them together combine constitute over half the population of the world. and us just isolating itself, it has even cause europe to be angry at it for driving it into this malays. and i think the in the anger is only started, i would just started it as of just starting this one. is that a me,

this mentor that ukraine is winning, which is patently false. ok, it's patently false. and then that creates a momentum of its own. that means so send even more weapons, but don't on them. don't hold the government, they're accountable. i mean it, this is lunacy here. ok. because these weapons are going all over the place. you know, the lord of war where it wasn't about the former. it was up former you and communist ukraine. it wasn't about russia. ok. it was about odessa and what was all the web. it's a wonderful film, nicholas cage. it's great in and, but i mean, this is what we're having, we're having weapons are going to end up all is going to end. we've weapons will end up being used against people that are providing. ok. it's a and it is sacrosanct no no oversight because he's are, are ours lose an undemocratic government it's. it's a, it's a comes from

a qu. we have a very nefarious a meets neil. nazi ultra nationalists and very well documented the european union, documented this way before 2014 and but no ukraine is winning, which gives the the impetus to send it more arms will. you could turn it around and say, well, if they're winning, why haven't they won? because the west is entity on all of its, of stockpiles. and it still hasn't made a difference here. again, where the inquiring minds and well, they're starting to emerge even in america because the logic doesn't, doesn't fit. i'm certainly ukraine is. it's not waning that's, that's pretty clear on the when you look at the audit and the move to even suggest an audit and not necessarily ukraine, but the on it resolution that the republicans have put forth only after the mid term elections. they wouldn't even touch it before that, but after the midterm, let's just have

a short on it proposal which may or may not get through. and now it does this look at not the ukrainian side, the american side, which of course they do not want to do because we have emptied out quite a bit. and that's the object. that's the object. this, this is a, is a, yeah, a purge in preparation for great reloading of, of the western side of the u. s. i said there's tons of money been made and i'll, you know, i looked at the audit resolution language and am they, they went emails, they went phone conversations. they want a, who knows who instead what, but it's all in a mostly on the american side because we have very little power and access to see what's on the ukrainian side. and also it's, it's, it's a joke really on the ukranian side. because if you do not deploy and send weapons over with audit mechanisms in place at the time that you don't have a system, this is how we operate. he'll go after the fact that we're going to track down this, or you will never track it down. and like you said about a desa,

absolutely one word odessa. anybody who knows anything about is going to say, oh, i know it does is famous for because we do know what it's, it's for. so they're not going to track this down. there's gonna be, well, there is already has been and it'll be up to the interpol and, and global warren for spent over many, many years in the future to track the sinks down if they ever are. but this, the big chat, the big oh, interesting problem for americans is what we have done in washington. and what that's about because it certainly is not about saving ukrainians there. there wasn't much ukraine democracy to save them because not about that. it, it is about poetry and managing our puppet and, and to me that the next big news will be, keep an eye on zelinski for his own safety and for what it says about the process. so, i mean, this is so rend is that the disregard for ukraine as a country crane, the claim, people, the history of ukraine, the buildings,

you know, i think hootin has in the way he didn't, he didn't conduct the strike sunday infrastructure like we were like, we did interact us the 1st and 2nd time. here we go in big time, wipe it all out and we don't talk about impacts on people's lives. we don't talk about that. it's just not mentioned. it's buried like what happened to the nordstrom ice behind. you know, we don't talk about it, but, but russia knows exactly what it was about and then i tried to kill, you know, they had a very clear jet, which is shocking. it's shocking to americans. if they're paying attention. this person had a plan. it may sense, it was limited, and then he followed through with it almost. exactly. we're not used to that we're, we're looking for. where's the side message, you know, actually he's not and he's not an american policy maker. so there, you know, we actually had a plan in that playing was not to, i think, kill and destroy all of ukraine. but that's what's happening. thanks to the united states. i think i'm only in michael and michael,

what we had was we had the is them bull process were you know, the, the, the sort of a, quote unquote russian column going up to care. which of course was to, was a diplomatic parlaying look me. we've shown you where we can go, we show you our promise here, and you, you didn't listen to us before the conflict. now the conflict of started, we want to go back to what we wanted in december before the conflict. and then you have my voice, johnson show up probably just as a as an errand boy from the, the biden ministrations. i know if you want to make this deal, we're not going to back you up here. but that, that was that the, the sense of the special military operation, i think we all have to agree that it failed because you were dealing with a free agent. ukrainian government was a puppet of nato. and that's why we had this. and now it looks very likely that there will be a winter offensive the ukrainians can try whatever they want, because it's nato now. but the russians know how to fight in the winter,

and i know you got the window. the ground is getting hard, michael. yeah. well the, the, the, what you make is very valid because i think it was a rats enough. zaleski had every opportunity to settle things. sorry, the implement the mens one meant 2 agreements. but you had the us on it. he ran on it as residential candidate. yes. and, and the u. s. crop and europe prodded him not to do that and never realized in that that, that russia would carry out its its threat because it was really threatened with the expansion of nato coming in. and now that we have put now that we pushed our hooton's button and he reacted to it. it, it. now we don't have a plan on hub to the west and europe doesn't have a plan. and as, as karen's points out, and i think that you, you just don't go into a conflict or lesson until you know where,

what the end game is going to be. and yet we repeatedly violated that in any way. hold that up there. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real news. stay with our tea. ah, look forward to talking to you. oh, that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except we're such orders that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about official intelligence. and the point obviously is too late trust or rather than fear. like to take on various jobs with artificial intelligence, real, somebody with obama

protect its own existence with o. welcome at the cross stock. were all things considered? i'm peter lavelle. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news. ah ok. let's go back to karen. karen, you know, i guess one of the things, it's very frustrating me. you're a veteran of the armed forces alone air force. and when i look at the rhetoric of, you know, unprovoked attack ok out of the blue and, you know, and then you know, you have this ukraine, this david and goliath of propaganda. well, i mean, for 8 years ukraine was fortifying as an anti or russian military bastion, which is not taught though you can read it in the,

in the washington post in december of last year about the arms transfers massive arm transfers that were going to ukraine. and then you know, victimology, and this is what really irritates me the most. and i think future historians will, will focus a great deal of time on this. ukraine is, is a volunteer. it's not a victim, it's a volunteer. it just, i, it's politically decided to volunteer itself to be a nato proxy. now, i think of all of the other proxies over the last 50 years, and you'd say to them, you know what, it doesn't usually work out very well for you guys, but they do it anyway. now the victimology goes even further, is the euro allowed itself to play the victim? no, it was a volunteer. ok. and then you have your great american ally definitively turning off your energy relationship with russia. they volunteered for this. they're not

victims. well, it's a good point i'm at it's, it's fascinating that they did volunteer to do something. i'm so opposite of the interest of their own people, you know, and i don't not a european and i don't follow green policies, you know, global, that movement, you know, but that seems to be, has, it has messed nicely with them. let's freeze out europe. let's destroy your hoops, ability to, to use any fossil fuels and, and we'll, we'll jump, start the new green i revolution or whatever. and i don't understand that, and i don't know why it, it doesn't seem any more logical than, than the russians going up their own pipeline. i mean, we hear these things and they're not logical. and yet we accept them. media accepts them and then the people who consume the media feel that, that they've been well served when in fact they know, you know, nobody has been served and we don't have the information that we need. so it's not really logical. and, you know, there is, and you mentioned this at the beginning,

you know, there is a lot of our anger and acts in it's, it's beyond angst. it's, it's anger and rage, i guess it's developing across the various countries of europe. and you're seeing, you're seeing arguments amongst the siblings, amongst the you, siblings, of the debate between italy and france over a shipload of immigrants, you know, has it has become a major issue and people are, and this happens, this happens when a in families, when the food and energy dries up and they are a family that is, that is beginning to starve and fries to some extent, or to see that on the horizon an a in a fight amongst themselves. and so if we were, if we were against the e u and against the united states, and i would not give, couldn't, is credit because i have no reason to. but in fact, what the russians have done has put all of the west on its heels. now of course, it's what we have done, as she said, we volunteered to do this we, we blew up the pipeline. we collectively, we are decided not to have

a energy relationship with europe. you know, we've chosen all these things we've chosen to expand nato for no reason. we've chosen these things, but in fact, it's put us all on our heels and it, it, it has even impacted the united states to some extent. it's not the only thing that's affected our, our recession and our crisis of confidence in our politics or whatever. but all this is coming back on. i seem to think that it's going to wait before it comes back on to so it will be 5 years. and, and we'll see, no, no, the historians need to get working right now because it's happening in the oh, well in the media. so my optic and so biased, but michael is the, the predicate for the special military operation was the fact that the west nato specifically decided to ignore russia. security a requirement to mean a very clear on the 7th and december 17th of last year and know to nato natal. i

don't know to washington saying the situation is become untenable. pen. european security is in tatters right now. the pan european security has been, has been designed without russia, in fact, against russia. and when things cannot stand, okay, we got, they got crickets. ok. and then this conflict started. now they can keep to negotiations. no diplomatic solution. well, i think that's ridiculous because russia will continue until it is achieved, what it's what it wants. it's not going to be done through diplomacy in negotiations, but in that time has passed because russia will not under any circumstances. miss castille please, and let this happen. and another 5 years, another 10 years, another 15 years, you know, they want a definitive outcome and it's all about pants, pain, european security. now personally, i would say, and i'm putting either one of you on the spot, but the 1st step in creating pen european security is, is taking,

is dismantling nato. well, it should have been dismantled because it wasn't. there is no more warsaw pact and, but nato saw an opportunity and this was all driven by the neocons in the united states to isolate, to, to contain russia. now russia, to put in himself, said the, that you're approaching a red line. he made that very clear in the december discussions and an exchange of documentation. the stolen burgundy, us didn't believe me. it just take him at his word and they and they kept pressing . we should have learned lessons from the georgia, 2008 excursion. we didn't, we put georgia, in fact they had moved there, the u. s. a. marines, i just finished maneuvers in a joint operation or joint exercise with georgia back in 2008. we, we don't,

we think that we're so invincible that, that was what we say rules, and it's not when, when you, when you contain a country such as georgia or russia rather, and you bring in nato right up to the federation line. you're going to feel threatening as is nowhere else to turn pollutant made that very clear. and we were we came halfway across the world to, to exercise our power. and now we're, we're reaping the, the, the, the consequences we are not. we are again, our own worst enemy each we, we have, even though we have pledged ourselves to, to, to arm ukraine till the end. when we were all running out, we probably thought this thing was going on anyway. but now we're hurting ourselves once again. and we're, we're now sending over another $30000000000.00. it's just, this is insane. and i'm now that we, we have republicans coming into the house. they have promised to,

to be much more skeptical of the, of any assistance to ukraine. and they could really hold things up. and i, i really wish sherry, i wish i could share your optimism. this is what you're saying, that this is what they're saying. i'm not going to say it's going to happen. they're going to be improving some stuff. but, but you know, it's, it's, we are our own worst enemy in the stuff and we've got to stop it. when we haven't learned, look, when you talk about accountability of, of where stuff goes. we have no idea, look at, look at the $85000000000.00 of equipment we handed over to the tele, in iraq, in and not only afghanistan, but, but elsewhere. we had in afghanistan, we could, we had an inspector general who was constantly monitoring were stopped. what were all the procurement was going?

he couldn't do it. it was an interesting question. karen, i have said repeatedly on this program. is it, it's it's, it's not a coincidence that the afghan griff comes to and when the ukraine risk starts, ok, and the numbers are, there is matter of fact. and they've been in extremely generous with ukraine. i mean, when you think of every single year they had to beg, borrow and steal, and you know, it's for the children are not going to stand to get the money that, you know, just one more year we were almost around around the corner just, you know, one more year in this is going to be jump in with ukraine. what, how it does blank check is really there. this is something that did. this is an amazing grip in such a short amount of time, no descent whatsoever in the media. and then you have kevin mccarthy just kind of, you know, week of sheepishly saying, well maybe there shouldn't be

a blank check and then you saw what happened with that. ok, we think that the jury is out on your thoughts care? well, i mean, i think it, if, if we were doing a criminal investigation, this is, these are the things we would be looking at. okay. you know, it's like the mob it's, we're like what we think the mob is from television. you know, it's, it's like that kind of an operation. it's, yeah, i, we should be talking about it, but it's so close down. maybe we can't. and certainly both sides, the congress are very much beholden to the defense establishment and the process in washington as how by which money is allocated in and sent out there. and nobody is interested in any type of audit. nobody is interested in a forensic investigations. they don't want to know and, and it really is some, it's interesting they could have, you know, by an administration really doesn't like trump. and so they buy them. buying told the people are very awkwardly from afghanistan. well,

you'd think maybe they would have looked into where the stuff went, because then they couldn't blame truck for it. you know, something critical like that. but they don't, they don't even care. it's not even enough. if we could blame truck for it, we do not want to look at it. but i do want to say thank mike very much for seeing what i think me a lot of people think. why is nato still a construct? you know, how many years after the fall of them were so packed and it, instead of it, he didn't even shrink. you know, it's one thing to say, well, it should have gone away. i thought so too, at the time i thought it would, i just assumed that it would an infected not only did it not go away, but it began to get new missions and expand and become more of a bigger entity. which is, i get my theory, my theory of the case of that is that the nato aspires to be an alternative to the united nations. you know, make mccain's, you know, all these nations of democratic was the, some kind of league of,

of democracies and things like that. just to be able to replace the united nations with the u. s. t only uses when it gets to work. so it's advantage or i think nato as of a much bigger calling and that's why it's out of out of area operations. and when that's why last 20 seconds, you can remember almost out of time. well, we had a big problem on our hands here. and now how it, how it ends, i think we're running out of really positive options. we need to start listening to the russian side and being serious about ending this. and i don't see that seriousness. i think the american people are not informed. so they're not pushing back and it will just take some more negative things to happen before we do. ok, learning is very difficult for this liter. let's all the time i want to thank my guests and mom jackson and him watch it. in one thing, our viewers are watching and seniority scenic some remember across apples. ah,

ah, [000:00:00;00] ah, ah, the headlines of this, our choices president says he was delusional to think it come higher energy market independent of outside powers. but as the globe is full supply impulses, us, natural gas would cost $3.00 times higher than domestic with a man who assassinated a south african ante paul tightly. this dive in prison days and fully was supposed