only for a very good cause, but according to u. s. officials interfering and other countries funding death squads and paramilitaries and over throwing elected governments. that's just democracy and helping countries back on to the correct path. but watch out for a tweet by a foreign countries president. that is a violation of sovereignty, that cannot be tolerated. caleb martin artsy new york discussing a costly and cold winter ahead for europe on why brussels appears to be paying for washington's actions. it is crossed off right ahead. they close for peter. i'm guests in with

hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered? i'm peter lavelle. it would seem, we have reached the point of no return. after being the target of sabotage, the north stream pipe wines will be mothball, the mutually beneficial energy relationship. europe and russia had for decades has come to an end. the geopolitical implications are enormous, and europe is the biggest loser. ah. discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess. karen feel cowski and mount jackson. she is retired. united states air force. colonel, who served at both the n a say and the office of the secretary of defense. and in washington, we have michael maloof. he is

a former pentagon senior security policy analyst, all right, process rules in effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate it. i want to start out with karen's 1st care and it didn't make a lot of news in the west. well, actually when the pipelines were blown up, but they didn't get a whole lot of coverage and kind of just disappeared. and in the active, probably the largest industrial sabotaged that i can think of. but it just, you know, went into the ether. everybody forgot about it. rushes just announced that it's going to mothball the thing. there is no energy relationship in the future as far as russia is concerned, when it comes to europe, why would they rebuild those pipeline? someone would just blow it up again. um, i just, you know, in looking at this conflict here, i think the way i can is nato. and particularly the united states. they just thinking tactically, step by step. they have no real strategy here. and it's only good. it's only creating a river of tears, which the u. s. doesn't necessarily,

is impacted in least in the, in the immediate term. it's, these are all at craven acts of choice. karen? yes, they are acts of choice and it does appear like he said, to be focused only on tactical steps that aren't really connected to each other. but there is a philosophy that drives the sustainment long term. that statement of american unipolar global power, and they see russia and control of russia's resources and the elimination of russia's, any type of near peer threat. that's part of the process. so, you know, the idea of throwing weapons continuing low level wars. i mean, this was, in fact, this was why we helped the taliban back in 79. you know, let's weaken russia khan. this isn't, this is a long concept that it says it, it appears very disjointed, very stupid, but it is connected to a way we have done foreign policy for a long time. yes, whitman, michael,

it doesn't work. i would go all the way back then, and they're still trying to same a process. you know, the only difference is, you know, and i think it's, it's important to point out for viewers is in the, these adventures in afghanistan in iraq, in syria, in libya, e m. and for the average of western consumers, last citizen, these are just kind of pigments of the remote. it's something you hear on the news . ok. it but, but now this place called ukraine, which nobody cared about in europe and in the united states, all sudden their, their entire lifestyle, their entire prosperity is at stake. here for something that never is never been explained to anyone. why is it important to be supporting this regime that was installed on democratic lee in 2014? never get that. and of course, you know, the conflict started on february 24th, but nobody talks about what happened in the 8 years before that. and maybe this is

all by design because it's complicated or they would show that this is just another adventure. yes. well, it's a see no evil hear no evil issue here that we have going there. this is all by a reaction to the, to the impulses by the, by the administration and the, and the goons. he has working for him, namely victoria, newland, lincoln and sherman. they are driving, they've been driving this, and when biden was vice president, he was driving this, this, this narrative and resulting in that 2000. and 14 qu, this, he still to this day cannot convince the american people what the national security imperative is of ukraine cannot do it. and it's, and people have asked, and you never get an answer. it's really much law. so then you cray, it's,

it's trying to contain russia even try to change the government, they're all together. even partition by the is notorious for partitioning. he loves it, he will, he envisioned it, or syria is envisioned it for iraq. so that, that, and that what we're seeing here today is that we haven't learned our lessons beginning from the vietnam war in afghanistan. and we, we've left all kinds of equipment. and what have you strewed all over asia, all over and, and now ukraine. and then in the middle east, and we haven't gained anything from these adventures and they, and they're just reacting to events, there's no plan by the, by the, by the ministration for them, or even by the bush administration, with respect to iraq. so this, we haven't learned our lessons and we're doomed to failure. and it's just not going

to, it's just not going to work. russia has turned more eastward in his involved in. that's karen well points out to the unit in terms of a unipolar world order that us, thanks. it's still leading, but it is now turning into a multi polar world order that involves the entire eurasia portions. and it's also get a middle eastern countries in gates such as bricks, if they all of them together combined constitute over half the population of the world. and us just as isolating itself. it has even cause in europe to be angry at it for driving it into this malaise. and i'm thinking the in the anger is only started. i would just started it as of just starting this one, is that a me this mentor that ukraine is winning, which is patently false. ok, it's patently false. and that that creates

a momentum of its own. that means so send even more weapons, but don't on them. don't hold the government, they're accountable. i mean, this is lunacy here. ok? because these weapons are going all over the place. you know, the lord of war where it wasn't about the former, it was up former you and communist ukraine. it wasn't about russia. ok. it was about odessa and what was all the web? it's a wonderful film. nicholas cage. it's great in, but i mean this is what we're having. we're having weapons going to end up all is going to end. we've weapons will end up being used against people that are providing. ok. it's a and it is sacrosanct no no oversight because he's are, are ours, lose an undemocratic government it's, it's a, it's a comes from a qu. we have a very nefarious a meets neil nazi ultra nationalists and very well documented. the

european union documented this way before 2014 and but no ukraine is winning, which gives the the impetus to send it more arms will. you could turn it around and say, well, if they're winning, why haven't they won? because with the west is entity on all of it's of stockpiles and it still hasn't made a difference here. again where the inquiring minds. yeah, well, they're starting to emerge even in america because the logic doesn't, doesn't fit. i'm certainly ukraine is. it's not waning that's, that's pretty clear on the when you look at the audit and the move to even suggest an audit and not necessarily ukraine, but the on it resolution that the republicans have put forth only after the midterm elections. they wouldn't even touch it before that. but after the midterm elections, they have a short audit proposal which may or may not get through. and how it does is look at not the ukrainian side, the american side,

which of course they do not want to do because we have emptied out quite a bit. and that's the object. that's the object. this, this is a, is a, a purge in preparation for great reloading of, of the western side of the u. s. i said there's tons of money been made and i'll, you know, i looked at the audit resolution language and am they, they went emails. they went phone conversations, they want a, who knows who and said what, but it's all in a mostly on american side because we have very little power and access to see what's on the ukrainian side. and also it's, it's, it's a joke really on the ukranian side, because if you do not deploy and send weapons over with on it mechanisms in place at the time that you don't have a system, this is how we operate. he'll go after the fact it's, i, we're going to track down this, or you will never track it down. and like you said about a desa, absolutely one word odessa. anybody who knows anything about is going to say, oh, i know it does is famous for because we do know what it's for him. it's for so

they're not going to track this down. there's gonna be, well, there is already has been and it'll be up to the interpol and global warren for spent over many, many years in the future to track the stand if they ever are. but this is the big chat, the big. oh, interesting problem for americans is what we have done in washington. and what that's about because it certainly is not about saving ukrainians there. there wasn't much new trained democracy to same thing because not about that. it is about poetry and managing our puppet and, and to me that the next big news will be, keep an eye on zalinski for his own safety and for what it says about the process. so, i mean, this is so rend is that the disregard for ukraine as a country crane, the claim, people, the history of ukraine, the buildings, you know, i think hootin has in the way he didn't, he didn't conduct the strike sunday infrastructure like we were like,

we did interact with us the 1st and 2nd time. here we go in big time, wipe it all out and we don't talk about impacts on people's lives. we don't talk about that. it's just not mentioned. it's very like what happened to the nordstrom, i and, you know, we, we don't talk about it but, but russia knows exactly what that was about and then i tried to kill, you know, they had a very clear jet, which is shocking. it's shocking to americans. if they're paying attention, this person had a plan, it may sense it was limited, and then he followed through with it almost. exactly. we're not used to that we're, we're looking for. where's the side message? you know, actually he's not, and he's not an american policy maker. so there, you know, we actually had a plan in that playing was not to, i think, kill and destroy all of ukraine. but that's what's happening. thanks to the united states. i think i believe in michael and michael, what we had was we had the, is them bull process were you know, the, the, the sort of a, quote unquote russian column going up to tier. which of course was to, was

a diplomatic parlaying look me. we've shown you where we can go, we show you our promise here, and you didn't listen to us before the conflict. now the conflict of started, we want to go back to what we wanted in december before the conflict. and then you have my voice. johnson show up probably just as a, as an aaron boy from the the by didn't ministrations. i know if you want to make this deal. we're not going to back you up here. but that, that was that the, the sense of the special military operation. i think we all have to agree that it failed because you were dealing with a free agent. the crating government was a puppet of nato, and that's why we had this. and now it looks very likely that there will be a winter offensive the ukrainians can try whatever they want, because it's nato now. but the russians know how to fight in the winter, and i know you got the window. the ground is getting hard, michael. yeah. well the, the, the, what you make is very valid because i think it was

a ration enough. zaleski had every opportunity to settle things. sorry, the implement the min squan mince 2 agreements. but you had the us on it. he ran on and it is residential candidate. yes. and, and, and the u. s. pro and you're a prodded him not to do that and never realized in that that, that russia would carry out its its threat because it was feeling threatened with the expansion of nato coming in. and now that we have put now that we pushed out hooton's button and he reacted to it. it now we don't have a plan on how to the west and europe doesn't have a plan. and as, as karen's points out, and i think that you, you just don't go into a conflict or lesson until you know where, what the end game is going to be. and yet we repeatedly violated that, in a way, hold that up there. we're going to go to a short break,

and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real new stay with our tea. ah, a wrong one. i just don't want you to see how you see an engagement with the trail when suddenly find themselves world support. we choose to look so common ground. oh, welcome at the cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. this is the home edition to remind you were discussing some real news. ah.

ok. let's go back to karen. karen, you know, i guess one of the things, it's very frustrating me. you're a veteran of the armed forces, an air force. and when i look at the rhetoric of, you know, unprovoked attack ok out of the blue and, you know, and then you know, you have this ukraine, this david and goliath of propaganda. well, i mean, for 8 years ukraine was fortifying as an anti or russian military bastion, which is not taught though you can read it in the, in the washington post in december of last year about the arms transfers massive arm transfers that were going to ukraine. and, and then you know, victimology and this is what really irritates me the most. and i think future historians will, will focus a great deal of time on this. ukraine is, is a volunteer. it's not a victim, it's a volunteer. it just, i, it's politically decided to volunteer itself to be a nato proxy. now,

i think of all of the other proxies in the last 50 years, and you'd say to them, you know what, it doesn't usually work out very well for you guys, but they do it any way that the victimology goes even further. is the euro allowed itself to play the victim? no, it was so fall and tear ok. and then you have your great american ally definitively turning off your energy relationship with russia. they volunteered for this. they're not victims. well, it's a good point. i'm at it's, it's fascinating that they did volunteer to do something. i'm so opposite of the interest of their own people, you know, and i don't not a european and i don't follow. i green policies, you know, global, that movement, you know, but that seems to be, has, it has messed nicely with them. let's freeze out europe. melissa,

destroy your hopes ability to, to use any fossil fuels and, and we'll, we'll jump, start the new green i revolution or whatever. and i don't understand that, and i don't know why it, it doesn't seem any more logical than, than the russians going up their own. hi blaine, i mean we hear these things and they're not logical. and yet we accept them. media accepts them and then the people who consume the media feel that, that they've been well served when in fact they know, you know, nobody has been served and we don't have the information that we need. so it's not really logical. and you know, there is, and you mentioned this at the beginning, you know, there is a lot of our anger and acts in it's, it's beyond angst. it's, it's anger and rage. i kiss it, it's developing across the various countries of europe, and you're seeing, you're seeing arguments amongst the siblings, amongst the you, siblings, of the debate between italy and france over a shipload of immigrants, you know, has it has become a major issue and people are and this happens, this happens when in families when the food and energy dries up and they are

a family. that is, that is beginning to starve and fries a to some extent, or to see that on the horizon an a in a fight amongst themselves. and so if we were, if we were against the e u and against the united states, and i would not give, couldn't, is credit because i have no reason to. but in fact, what the russians have done has put all of the west on its heels. now of course, it's what we have done, as she said, we volunteered to do this we, we blew up the pipeline. we collectively, we are decided not to have a energy relationship with europe. you know, we've chosen all these things we've chosen to expand nato for no reason. we've chosen these things, but in fact, it's put us all on our heels and it, it, it has even impacted the united states to some extent. it's not the only thing that's affected our, our recession and our crisis of confidence in our politics or whatever. but on this is coming back on. i seem to think that it's going to wait before it comes back on,

so it will be 5 years and, and we'll see, no, no, the historians need to get working right now because it's been, it's happening with the media. so my optic and so biased, but michael, in the, the predicate for the special military operation was the fact that the west nato specifically decided to ignore russia. security a requirements made a very clear on the 7th and december 17th of last year and know to nato natal. i don't know to washington saying the situation is become untenable. pen. european security is in tatters right now. the pan european security has been, has been design without russia, in fact, against russia and we things cannot stand. okay. we got, they got crickets. ok. and then this conflict started. now they can keep to negotiations. no diplomatic solution. well, i think that's ridiculous because russia will continue until it is achieved,

what it's what it wants. it's not going to be done through diplomacy in negotiations that in that time has passed, because russia will not under any circumstances. mrs. castillo, please, and let this happen. and another 5 years, another 10 years, another 15 years, you know, they want a definitive outcome and it's all about pants, pain, european security. now personally, i would say, and i'm putting either one of you on the spot. but the 1st step in creating pan european security is, is taking, is dismantling nato. well, it should have been dismantled because it wasn't. there is no more warsaw pact and, but nato saw an opportunity. and this was all driven by the neocons in the united states to isolate, to, to contain russia. now russia to put in himself, said the, that you're approaching a red line. he made that very clear in the december discussions and an exchange of

documentation that the stolen burgundy us didn't believe me. it just take him at his word and they and they kept pressing. we should have learned lessons from the georgia, 2008 excursion. we didn't, we put georgia up, in fact they had moved there. the u. s. a. marines, i just finished maneuvers in a joint operation or joint exercise with georgia back in 2008. we, we don't, we think that we're so invincible that, that was what we say rules, and it's not when, when you, when you contain a country such as georgia or russia rather, and you bring in nato right up to the federation line. you're going to feel threatening, is nowhere else to turn pollutant made that very clear. and we, when we came halfway across the world to, to exercise our power. and now we're,

we're reaping the, the, the, the consequences we are not. we are again, our own worst enemy each we, we have, even though we have pledged ourselves to, to, to arm ukraine till the end. we were all running out. we probably thought this thing was going anyway, but now we're hurting ourselves once again. and we're, we're now sending over another $30000000000.00. it's just, this is insane. and i'm now that we, we have republicans coming into the house. they have promised to, to be much more skeptical of the, of any assistance to ukraine. and they could really whole things up and i, i really wish sherry, i wish i could share your optimism. this is what you're saying, that this is what they're saying. i'm not going to say it's going to happen. they're going to be approving some stuff. but you know, it's, it's,

we are our own worst enemy in the stuff and we've got to stop it. when we haven't learned, look, when you talk about accountability of, of where stuff goes. we have no idea, look at, look at the $85000000000.00 of equipment we handed over to the telecom in iraq in and not only afghanistan, but, but elsewhere. we had in afghanistan, we could, we had an inspector general who was constantly monitoring were stopped. what were all the procurement was doing? he couldn't do it. it was an interesting question. karen, i have said repeatedly on this program. is it, it's it's, it's not a coincidence that the afghan griff comes to and when the ukraine risk starts, ok, and the numbers are, there is matter of fact. and they've been in extremely generous with ukraine. i

mean, when you think of every single year they had to beg, borrow and steal, and you know, it's for the children are not going to stand to get the money that, you know, just one more year we were almost around around the corner just, you know, one more year in this is going to be jump in with ukraine while it does blank check is really there. this is something that did. this is an amazing grip in such a short amount of time, no descent whatsoever in the media. and then you have kevin mccarthy just kind of, you know, week of sheepishly saying, well maybe there shouldn't be a blank check and then you saw what happened with that. ok, we think that the jury is out on your thoughts care? well, i mean, i think if, if we were doing a criminal investigation, this is, these are the things we would be looking at. okay. you know, it's like the mob, it's are like what we think the mob is from television. you know, it's, it's like that kind of an operation. it's, yeah, i, we should be talking about it,

but it's so close to home. maybe we can't. and certainly both sides of congress are very much beholden to the defense establishment and the process in washington as how by which money is allocated in and sent out there. and nobody is interested in any type of audit. nobody is interested in a forensic investigations. they don't want to know and, and it really is some, it's interesting they could have, you know, biting administration really doesn't like trump. and so they buy them buying, pulled the people out very awkwardly from afghanistan. well, you'd think maybe they would have looked into where the stuff went, because then they couldn't blame truck for it. you know, something critical like that. but they don't, they don't even care. it's not even enough. if we could blame truck for it, we do not want to look at it. but i do want to say thank mike very much for seeing what i think me a lot of people think. why is nato still a construct? you know, how many years after the fall of them were so packed and it,

instead of it, he didn't even shrink. you know, it's one thing to say, well, it should have gone away. i thought so too, at the time i thought it would, i just assumed that it would an infected not only did it not go away, but it began to get new missions and expand and become more of a bigger entity. which is, i get my theory, my theory of the case of that is that, that nato aspires to be an alternative to the united nations. you know, make mccain's, you know, all the nations of democratic was the, some kind of league of, of democracies and things like that. just of able to replace the united nations with the u. s. t only uses when it gets to work. so it's advantage or i think nato as of a much bigger calling and that's why it's out of out of area operations. and when that's why last 20 seconds, you can remember almost out of time. well, we had a big problem on our hands here. and now how it, how it is, i think we're running out of really positive options. we need to start listening to

the russian side and being serious about ending this. and i don't see that serious . i think the american people are not informed. so they're not pushing back and it will just take some more negative things to happen before we do. ok, learning is very difficult for this felicia. let's all the time. i want to thank my guess mom jackson and him watching everyone. thank you for watching and c r t c next time. remember? ah ah ah .

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