a stablish dumb it tended to operate in see this in regards to your big events, things to do with the iraq war, things to do with the, the clash of cultures. so culture in america and in britain and also do politics. and quite specifically with this issue of russia, although not exclusively to russia. so in a sense, yes i, i think it's very important that the west should listen to all view what they don't appear to. and i'm quite a mentioned about what he considered to be. and bio lies, which is quite an extraordinary response to the success of states of the soviet union, which is described as b, m by evil, l e m. you know,

the free speech. absolutely, and i think in that speech and put in now that those lies, i know, just manufactured out of a will. they are specifically conjured out to influence public opinion. and this is not actually a new phenomenon long before a gas lighting. i think it was in the 19th century that depression and general and worth here is carl, one classmates coined this term the long of war. but in his time, it man this state of incomplete, dubious iranian information, that decision makers to make wrong calculations. so i take wrong decisions, do you think we have come to the point in the 21st century when the fund one doesn't just exist as a, as a, as a natural reality, but essentially manufacturing deliberately. i think there's no question about

that. i mean one can pick up quite a few notable examples just from this tragic when you crane with events with positive as having happens. but i had to be backtracked. you know, for instance of the issue of a snake island local heroes of snake islands. one is particularly cool in about this is that many in the west should be aware that these narratives have been exposed for being lies that they are, but yet they keep falling for them. and this is a very worrisome thing. it's something that's all. it may actually party in war. let's not forget the russian military doctrine includes the master, you know, which is all about the section. but what is particularly noticeable is that

these forms of the section, either emanating intelligence services or military intelligence services from the west are not checked. you mentioned close to the very way in which the russian federation is prosecuting this intervention. you know, you find that they've been saying that russia is losing the war. the russian military is incompetent. and this is disturbing because you have military figures such as general for general patrol david betray us. you also have general wesley clark and they are talking heads. but they fail to recognize the russian military doctrine of which is based in part or certainly analogous to that of the doctrine of warfare. a terry, what is about an enemy?

and so when i see that even if you have a particular point to me, you should engage with the office. if you were mentioned that it took very difficult to sort through the various narratives, especially given that they are so polarized. i wonder how do you personally see through all these gas and bob here arrive at your own analysis? do you have any rules that you follow? you know that you arrive at, you know, your own opinions. you need to be aware of all the different views and you need to access those fields. so it doesn't help if r t. c and other russian outlets are bad because, you know, i, i was growing up, i was a child during the cold war. and for, quite frankly, you know, i would,

you know, i love social radio with, you know, avoid the voice of moscow road rage and moscow, baby. and, you know, i could see the section i could actually see full cities there. there's no question about that. the problem is this dis, disconnect that the roster of today is the soviet union of the past. and so if the voice of russia, the soviet union was so so wrong, what is there to fear? why would you need to ban those forces from, from russia? i simply do not understand it because you can then pull it up to scrutiny and then ridicule it. so it, that tells me i think those who are thinking those who come from a failure mode of thinking rather than a jerusalem, i think able to switch out well that's,

well let's try to think out loud together. i heard you say before the american to some extent made us policy is predicated in part on creating enemies. even the one objective reality allows for peace and compromise. and i wonder what do you think is driving these dynamic and is it primarily economic or psychological? well, i mean, i think you can speak about this unless you have a proper historical and contemporary context of the animals of the west, the united states, lead nato, to was russia. and it's all, again, from the, the, you know, the ending of the cold war that russia, the, you know, the quote unquote, the victory of the western ideology over the soviet wall still necessitated russia should be subjugated. and so every full foreign

policy by the west has been good to subjugated russia by a problem. the attack that involves 3 things, a military aspect, an informational aspect, and definitely an economic aspect. and these are being continuous and we will, we can go through that. we can identify that we can look at the issues on the military side of all the, you know, the painstakingly built out of nuclear safety treaties, you know, things like the like. so the, so to be patient treaty, all those treaties that followed seem to be dismantled and the dismantling has not come from the russian side is coming from the west side. well, and this is actually an interesting question because i think a part of the rationale that job, that this mental and is the belief among some decision makers,

particularly in europe. but i think also within the wider west that war as a means of geopolitics is absolute. at least on the european continent and many of my progressive european france, absolutely a gas by the fact that there are people who are fighting and dying in that thousands in the, in the midst of the continent. but i wonder if these readiness to abandon war and to believe that war is no longer possible. no matter how you push russia, he'll not buying back with weapons. don't you think that it's in part responsible for this conflict, this type of pacifist take thinking? well, i mean, the way i certainly understand it is that these pressures were designed to force russia into a situation in which it would either voluntarily submitted sovereignty to the west, or it would lash out and part of the strategy of the economic warfare against

russia. and the colonization that occurred during the time of the seals and was this idea of go cation reaction. russia has been essentially reacting. you just need to look at the evidence there. and also each reaction they are sanctions imposed. so i think the idea was that eventually russia would be ground to sort of sort subjugation. i think there was a belief and i think there's still a belief within some american circles that war is such an unimaginable course of action that is so detrimental. and that it's actually so horrible that we yeah, russia will have to swallow whatever is pushed its way without actually you know, taking an initiative and fighting back. yes. i think um,

obviously that is that is clearly not correct. and then obviously the united states is instigated many was both over and over, you know, the destruction of iraq and syria and destruction of libya. we've seen the occupation of afghanistan. and, you know, in these situations, those are active was, i think obviously where the disconnect is that was closer to home with european people all bits days. that song takes over the superiority of the anglo saxon over the certainly when it comes to russia. but it also rears its head in other instances. and so that idea about war b, the ultimate evil i think, is a correct way to approach human relations. unfortunately, you're not going to be successful in achieving that. if your doctrine is based on

that of aggression and confrontation, it's making the we have to take a short break right now, but we will get back in just a few moments. thank you. ah ah, is your media a reflection of reality? in a world transformed what will make you feel safe, isolation or community? are you going the right way or are you being led somewhere? direct. what is true? what is great?

in the world corrupted, you need to descend a. ready join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah, with a

a welcome back to one's a point with on the income i can there visiting lecture in law at the university of western instant. mister making the, i know that you have a particular interest in the history of espionage and secure interest. that is, and such an interesting topic because intelligence services have always played a role in your politics. but over the last day, could i think it has turned into a rule. bowen, spyware, especially in syria, when you had one convert action against another. and there are also proliferation of private armies, and many countries preferred to use convert means rather than i'm worth once. why do you think convert the peroration? i'm proliferating in this. suppose it age of transparency and do you think the ukranian conflict will change any of that?

because i think what the russian did in launching this a military operation. it's essentially calling a spade a spade and it's going out kinetically to define its interest rather than relying on the intelligence services. yeah, i mean, i think the whole idea about who was, is that you try not to reveal your hand, your hand remains. and i think they are obviously conscious despite the protestant sions, the idea that war is something of the past. the full blame was something of the past. the idea of using a proxy is more satisfactory. this is kind of the case in ukraine, which is obviously a client state is being used to fight russia. and there's no question about that. and i think i have been a developmental of it and i think it's always existed. you know, there were property was during the cold war number of them situated in the african

continent and go, and you see here, so it's, i won't necessarily call it a phenomenon. i start because nature revealed it in a sense obviously in iraq is a full blown evasion by american forces and those items also erica. and also in libya, you did see the forces the use of missiles from, from the mediterranean, by nature to guide this islamist proxy army to overthrow mcgaffey. so this use of proxies, particularly those involved with extreme policies, is mon you. if you go back to the century, started with the british empire, even the germans were involved in that sort of warfare. but a modern times, you can connect it with the recreate situation. in modern times, you find the eisenhower administration use in the muslim brotherhood to attack

the secular government. so i don't master it. so the whole idea about, well, i guess yes, has been fine. and it's privatization has been find you, which is actually the russian line. what is the increase in africa? so you know, it, those both sides. you mentioned native being involved in always well in african conflict in theory as well indirectly. but it has always denied that its purpose. is it sort of new times purpose is to be aggressive towards russia, and do you take this refusal to, to dismantle, later after the cold war? as a case of, i don't know institutional inertia and vested interest with bureaucrats and weapons

manufacturers wanting to keep the pay check's or that profit is coming on. do you think it was in fact strategic at that point, that is native continuing to sort of serving the exact purpose that it was created for? i'll be in the plaza of with plausible deniability. well 1st thing is the, the rule of a is, is, is easily overwritten. because you can point to position papers, you know, by the rand corporation, which took a long walk in, in the middle east, where the united states would use the sunni shia conflict. and we can see that the evidence came out in the was in libya, was in syria. and we also can see it's in the use of those who profess an alter nationalist or g in ukraine. these unholy alliances are there

to see the position of the things that crop in the press have propped up. well, as far as the cold war is concerned, i think that was a moment lost in history, where the security architecture in europe could have been changed. and i think it was out of self interest that nato was natal needed to be maintained because of the military industry, which president eisenhower famously referred to as the military industrial complex out of self interest. it needed to perpetuate itself. and part of the idea of the stock trade, which in most of that time was to ensure that with a vacuum caused by the fall of the soviet union, another power and other economical military competitor would not be able to rise. well, this is why we have the education against russia and china today, but i would just say, look, that's ultimately speaking. you can't understand the conflict with russia. if you

do not understand that, there is a project to subjugate russia, god who is control in russia. when you turn that person democrats, or, and also need to control the resources a russia. mister making the one thing that i cannot grasp. that is how such an idea and you wrote extensively the some in the west, one to see russia simply as a geographic entity, not as a sovereign state by the geographical entity which is solely dedicated to the service of energy needs of the west. and this is actually not a new idea, a couple of policy makers, american policy makers out on the record stating that as a national interest or national goal. but one thing i can grasp is how such an idea could come into that mind. because, i mean, you don't need to have

a very deep knowledge of history on this than the country, the size of russia, the sort of the natural, national and cultural character of russia will never succumb to something like that . why do you think this people believe in, you know, in the possibility of something like this? well, that's the 22 things. one was mentioned is the aspect of american exceptionalism, which in its most positive form, sees america has been this dynamic, this creative force in science and culture. science. well, there's that only aspect which puts america above the rest of the world. well then that's why, but that doesn't mean that the rest of their will cease to exist, discerned that great american vision, if you follow that ideologies through. unfortunately it is, it's an obligation of the lights, the lights of that value, you know,

and capsulated by emmanuel can to spoken to is, you know, is categorical imperative that we deal with other people as humans. and you deal with people according to an ethical principles. is consistent and universal and will be applicable to you. but unfortunately, this is the reality. also, you have mentioned the neoconservative movements. the people who is involved in that ideology do not know what a backward step is. they will go on and on. they have already led american to successive disastrous. unfortunately, this is a, this is, you know, the, the way where people do not see the reality coming through. unfortunately, they are deliberately, will persist. and i was going to say something here. i think it's a really terrible development in terms of you're not pushing

back because if you go back to readers, like all, even really branches, atlanta and atlantis and believed in a united europe. i mean, he still had a policy which is something that could be continued to this day along with the mentality of, which is the last thing we see that european up here. what as fossils. this is not the case. a 198 is when the 1st pipeline, you know, from siberia, western europe, we've been built when americans started imposing sanctions on the soviet union that was pushed by your been union. you know, it said this is against free trade and that was pushed back by market fracture just as it was unfair nations like this way. so this react to see this on real policies. unfortunately, given back by this i with conduct over you the leaders

in action against their own interests. we only have 2 minutes left. and i want to go back to that theme of buying games as well as the particular relationship between russia and the great britain. because we often talking about the russian rivalry, but i think the, the relationship between russian and british intelligence services are very, very interesting. and not many people know that let me put in 1st visit as a, as russian how to state was to britain specifically to try to normalize historically, there in 10 years or a relationship between our countries. and the relationship is sure to become very even more tenuous given that the british security and military officers are very, very active in training and ukrainian and military personnel. they what do you think is at the bottom of the says, seemingly imperishable amity?

well, i mean, i read a few years ago about britain and russia and what i, what i felt was fruitless rivalry. you know, britain had is essentially the 2nd stage with nature. this goes back to its creation. so if you look at it dominated by the united states, well, the imperial recent, which obviously fly in the past on its torch to america. the 2nd world war has unfortunately, a conference in play, 2nd fiddle. what you see ukraine today. that's what happened in yes to years when it came to training, these se, behind on a so which actually moved into something a bit more sinister. so it is a big shame because trade is something that the focus should be on. not an espionage games, not an economic warfare. well, you know, the sort of political confrontation become when you are

used to. and here this confrontation continues. and if i'm asking very quickly it's, it's no secret that the ukrainian side now relies very heavily on western intelligence and satellite capability. some russian experts suggest that it's far more detrimental to the russian forces than the western supplied weapons. doesn't that make western countries? no, no, no participants in that warrant. do you think people in britain or in the united states realize that money aren't going directly to funding this war and fighting against the russians? when i think, given the fact that there is an energy crisis caused by the sanctions imposed on russia, which blew back, i think people are getting wind of this and they say ukraine for t sent in in. it is a proxies. it is a proxy war. and again,

this is where, yes, the west leads to the western public needs to be educated about that. but it's also where we could see that there were falls from the russian perspective in the way that they have conducted this war. if they had to embark on a shock and all war and stopped, obviously vladimir putin wanted to not have a situation with fellow as innocent as well. well, man at all mass, it sort of what you would say collateral damage if he but he's up to for this, go slow police action. and i was only given the wes the opportunity to widen the conflict. and that, so i, you know, i, again, i will stress the idea about war. it was not something is not something i would entertain both from the russian side. on the western side,

this is an unnecessary war. they should have implemented the means to court. they should have a quarter the rights to the russian speaking minorities that ukraine. we would have peace with ukraine in a neutral states focusing on developing its potential. i think one of the richest nations on that. well, that would have been possible if again, a gas lighting as a phenomenon deal projects wasn't so popular because none of that was discussed in its proper time, openly on western media. but at least we are thankful that we can have this conversation here i t and mr. mckee and i'm really appreciative of your time today with thank you. it was a pleasure and thank you for watching. called to center again. was apart. ah with

mm ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah, ah, a

ah with oh lisa come to russian state little never. i've stayed on the north lansky with coop in cissy babel did. okay, so mine is too bad. must be the one else with we will ben in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on russia today, and school ortiz spoke mckibbin, our video agency, roughly all band on youtube said

with me she, oh, i see it. yeah. satellite class, a loud voice. i never got my p me with should i love it? i just can't fall. is timothy just like a kind of thrash. nice thought it got you about it out. oh good.