solution to the ukraine conflict is in a very deep freeze. washington is against that ukraine does what it's told, and the russian see no pressing need to talk to the west. but this does not mean ukraine is a frozen conflict far from it. economic pain is just starting to reach a boiling point. ah discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, george samuel, we in budapest, he's a pod cast or at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow we have maxine who is the director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations. reginald cross across the fact that means you can jump any time you want and i would appreciate it. when i start, i was george in budapest, georgia. you and i actually follow quite closely with the chancellor of germany, but we call sergeant schultz on this program. he has to say from time to time,

it's actually quite interesting, if not to the point of bizarre. he said that piece in europe depends on revival of post cold war security agreements with russia. well, why didn't he think of a year ago, december a year, almost exactly on december 17th. i just want to really remarkable that a major european leader would say such a thing because yeah, that's the problem. that's how we got here. george. yes, exactly. and it's very hard to see what exactly he means by the post cold war security agreements with russia. because, or remember the post cohort security agreement was nato expansion. and it began immediately after the dissolution of also back in the demise of the soviet union. i mean, they didn't even pause for breath, and this happened despite repeated russian warnings a roughly again,

that was coming from the person that they lost so much. so it's hard to know what he really is and then even mentions about, well, maybe we can discuss this deployment. we will deploy miss styles in great, well, that's a completely pointless exercise because this was something that the united states talked about last december when a present is to security and one for united states and one of the major and said to be a, which was no for the late expansion of united states and later rejected the idea of the later expansion was, well, maybe we can talk about mr. deployments, but already said those are peripheral issues because you can just move, you'll miss i was in need of the moment. so why do we need to discuss it? so it's very hard to know it was a manual micro echo this theme of shows as well the other day. well,

we got to talk about that as in what, what do you planning on? and then the same and then also said the other day, is it? well a what we need to set up a special tribunal to put russian aggression on trial. so these are completely meaningless. chosen micro have been largely meaningless during the 10 months. if i can get to max, if i can continue with it also says it is part of returning to the post cold war security agreements. she also said this, which is again, really quite mystifying, given the events that we have. russia must make concessions acceptance quote, that there is no aggression coming from nato will read it again. there is no aggression coming from nato. i mean, oh, is this a serious person here?

because the problem is nato. okay? it's not, you know, you don't wish it away to say like wave a magic wand say, but it's okay. it's not evil. well, her, you, okay. i mean, again, this is like a fancy that coming from a major european leader in the middle of a conflict in europe is really quite mystifying and actually quite terrifying. go ahead. well, i think at some point in history back a few months ago, who responded to a similar quote by saying it's, it's not the intentions, it's potential that matter a, you know, and i know that i are serious, may have some problem with this. you know, they would say the intentions mattered to and how you read them. but i think it gives you a clear sense of the thinking on the russian side. we should have to say, i also want to refer to one bigger issue to say that both, usually a problem in any conflict in any major military escalation is when parties have

a divergence of positions. you will have a gentleman gap in the, in the evers of interest. and the interest in bottom line is that the, the west european, the us in particular, it would like to return to a point in history where they were at the peak of their might. which is the post cold war water ends of 98990 s. when they were the ones you know, rupturing the world according to their needs and interests. and russia in wants to return to its own point of its might, which is the end of the world war 2. when you know they, the russia, u. s. and new k dictated the rule southern regional for the rest of the world. and i, fortunately or unfortunately, i don't know, none of the either claims can be realised in today's world. i would say that and but, you know, that's, and i think russia in a way has given up on those expectations that there might be a grand because it clearly the us is not interested in any great deal. we see that

the momentum was on their side and one explore or the picture of the scene here we are getting right now to the best. and we've been long talking about the interest come in, which is now here. and a both parties expecting that the other one is going to pack sooner. ok, well i mean that, that's the, that's the other side of the coin that i want to talk about is the, the, the, the pain dial it, you know, george, which, which is really fascinating is that the cold war architecture that was created in europe after the 2nd world war, it works ok, it kept the peace. all right? and so again, going back to the shelters, words, i mean, how could someone say a series person say this a, well then what would change, what was the, what changed the post cold war order to get to where we are right now?

he's my optic about it, because just as you said, a soon as the warsaw pact came to an end, there was massive expansion of nato. and we all have to be clear here is this was a security agreement that only excluded russia, but was against russia. and that's why the security order in europe has collapsed george. yes, that's exactly right then because your choice of words is very interesting because sergeant schultz has said in the past that any future security arrangement or russia must include a security arrangement in europe, must include russia and must not be directed against russia. and then of course, he said something completely different the next day. i mean at least some realization of that fact. but if we go back to the historical analogies, then yes, during the cold war, the soviet union has enjoyed respect. and that is that the issue that has been

lost and what russia wants to go back to that we are, we were respected as a great power whose interest needed to be taken a council. you know, people didn't like communism. they didn't like the soviet union. none the less, you know, you didn't mess with the soviet union, you have to just, you have to accept that he had interest and you didn't across any line. so we can disappear at the end of the cold war. and russia has repeatedly said, you know, we, we want to return to that. you show us the respect that is due to us as a great bar, and that has been refused to russia. time and time again. i mean, we talk about all of the various agreements from which the western withdrawn the united states as a growing like the abm treaty, the i and i treat it all. it was just a reflection of the lack of respect the united states have garage and i think that

what triggered the launch of the civil special military operations is that i have to show you need to show respect. otherwise, we're just not going to have any peace or security in europe, because ultimately, when we're not going to just tolerate you surrounding us with hostile states and just sort of boxing it as if we, you know, we're, we're, you know, we're, we're going to publish that you can just dominate well, you know, it's interesting is that makes, if you go from across the field even to biden, because we, you know, we have a state visit to the united states and you get it from these people that they can still, they still believe that they can unilaterally impose a security arrangement on europe without the participation of russia. isn't that kind of the, getting to the point where it is a faith, complete that russia will always be deemed an enemy state because of a stake holder in agreement. you know, then what is their role?

i mean, or, or because natal needs an enemy, it only for it to continue existing must expand. so russia is the likely target here, but my point is they, they're not, they're less interested in security at the end of the day and rushes primary issue is security. go ahead mass right indeed. and i want to see where you left off in saying that the very rationale behind the beginning of the special military operation. i know people have a lot of understandings who are not entirely clear what exactly you know, a transitioning, what to put it in very, a kind of grew terms. russia do what it did to produce favorable security outcomes for itself and it's near rod when and then the security outcomes in the last few years were not cheap enough in russia's favor. so whatever love, whatever, sholtes or micron have to say about whether,

how russia should be engaged. there's got to be this idea in mind that the, the security outcomes for russia should be engaged in their calculation and thinking. and here i think a lot of people in moscow or including in foreign policy domain and then or policy making circles, are very skeptical about how serious is independent of policy makers. micron shows are at the end of the day. so whatever they're saying, maybe just the signal that they're challenge channeling for coordination with united states. so you know, they have the okay from the last to to test to the grounds and see how russia will respond. i know that you mentioned it before. we go to the break here. i mean, if there is a disparity here going on here, then there seems me that the under the guidance of washington, there is quite uniform security the definition of security for the west here. but

it just supposed to that, i mean, the more they get type security wise more they fall out, fall out economically in that is that is a tension. and that is really, really good. can you just address that for 30 seconds? i think it's, it's very unfortunate the geopolitics kills economy all over the world with this is a very certain token of it in, well, what you can, both of them can continue in the same trajectory. or there, there's going to be some kind of tension, some kind of break your heart gentlemen. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on some real estate with our team. ah, our ah wish it was their land to begin with and then it was part

of their original reservation. and it was somewhere in the 1920s that they lost oak flat. but it's always been considered sacred to that a but altogether within this resolution copper project area, there are approximately $800.00 archaeological sites that would be destroyed. oh wow. wow. that is right in the heart of where meaning we're culture, where you know would be the same if you fire bomb the vatican. think i hope that this country recognizes native american ceremonious ceremony. ceremonial grounds sacred sites because that's where our hardy said we belong to mother earth. we're doing our own mother. we

belong to watch for me for is you'll need be a reflection of reality. in the world transformed what will make you feel safer. isolation, whole community, are you going the right way? where are you being that some with direct? what is true worth is great. in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depth will remain in the shallows. for

a welcome back to crossed out. were all things considered on peter bell? this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news ah, over to georgia, we're to pass your church, which one of the interesting things of the conflict and ukraine is presented to the world. and i think it was, it had already started, but ukraine is a pivot point. is it? it goes across a administrations in the united states. we've talked a lot about trump in his trade policies, but now when we look at them with buying with inflation reduction act, which has nothing to do with inflation. but basically giving preferences to american companies, particularly in the green sector, which was, oh, that was supposed to be your job. ok, when of course, the leader in the world is china. what we have now is that the u. s. is turning its

back on 3040 years of globalization and wanting to have its own globalization. because now they will have multiple globalization that are b a just opposed and opposed to each other, an american one with the other europeans, as their underlings to be able to exploit. and then of course, we have the east, we have china, and it's, it's growing globalization here. and that doesn't bode well for security, george. and it's actually very amusing to listen to the european complaints as in the united states and ever in the past. can very much about the european economy and your economic security. because the american government is going to take up as their priority, who will be american companies,

and the europe's companies are going to fail in getting them a market share in the united states. so be it that how the united states has always run its economy. i mean it's, it's always been a protectionist power. the real question, why hasn't europe done anything to protect its interest? is why i mean, the whole resume, dasher of the european union have been all to be able to build up the cutting edge industries. that would challenge the united states. i mean it the same for years and then you look around, is it well in what area it is, you're a producing cutting edge industry, starting computers, not in software, not in the internet, not in social media, a lot, even in biotech. so what exactly is you're waiting for? so my own goes to the united states warning, wow, you know,

maybe we're going to do some subsidizing in the future. we haven't done it in the past, and then buying a few little tweaks to the inflation reduction act. and it comes back and says, victory is ours. we won, we were chief, everything we can. so again, again, all the talk about chapter one, presenting some sort of economic challenge to the united states and to china. it mass, you know, the, the, the, to this point, i mean the, me, in the americans have done really quite well. i mean, the, the, the economic pain that has been as a result of western sanctions on russia, the brunt of it has been felt by the europeans. ok. and then this inflation reduction, i guess that's almost like insult to injury. not only do the europeans have to pick up the pain tab if i can put it that way. now going to pick up the economic one. and i think you know, the media to underestimate what,

what's happening in europe. they talk about getting to this winter. how about getting through the next 5? because that's what's really in the cards right now. and europe's economic crown, this productivity will only continue to decline. so i don't see. and in the longer term, i don't see what the price of europe for the america it is. when it's interpretation of globalization, it's going to become a place to become poor and poor and, and then that it's still the same time you have to pay for their security. i mean, it seems like a mixture of all worst possible outcomes. go ahead max. well, in the them, in also, in this sense, you get your, that is likely to be a lot more dependent on the united states in terms of, you eliminate europe as an independent actor, either as a european union as a whole, or individual european states that would be totally know subjugated to us national

security interest and on policy concerns in this kind of global struggle against china. you know, to shut down the european market for the chinese you know, goods and technology and all that. and i guess that's the idea kind of behind trying to break the european so the royalty and kind of use the ukraine conflict as a common denominator for global interests. one perhaps, could argue and say, you know, the elite, running european countries are more, you know, oriented to it's kind of global and global interests. and less concerned about the national priorities. a political price to pay for that. eventually, if you can do that in, definitely jump in there george, because i agree with math. i mean they're, they're ideologically captured. but idea how g in politics, they don't, they're not always good bedfellows. go ahead. no,

that's right. and this has been the european problems since the end of the cold war, it had a chance in 1990. essentially it's a cold war is over now we have to pursue our own interests. you know, we can just, you know, go on, you know, this is, you know, the, that frame a soviet invasion, we need the protection of the united states. you know, that the whole issue of soviet union, so really racial gone. and that was the moment really the europe to thinking because it's own destiny. obviously it's destiny. lay with some sort of an economic partnership with russia. i mean, i was, it was obvious that that was where everything was differently cheap energy keep going cheap energy. and this is something the united states was absolutely determined to stop. but when you, when you, when i actually studied openly,

when both of it said, when i'm going to allow any power to dominate any continent in the world, you know, it's always going to be the united states that will prevail in europe and asia. and that's where the united states and united states and continue to insist not only on the maintenance of nato expansion and expansion of nato, that meant essentially moving the dividing line in the cold war, a 1000 miles east of a partnership with russia. you're actually intensified the conflict with russia. i mean, it is a lot more intense. so it was of the cold war. i mean, we didn't get this, we didn't get anything like this year. so united states is prevail because the united states succeeded in breaking up any possible future partnership between europe and russia. and now europe is in a very weak position and unable to challenge the united states as any serious

economic. i am unable to challenge china. think of any kind of economic rival you know, makes it's, it's really interesting. if you look at western media, mainstream media, there's always, and it's something i'm a child of the cold or something i was brought up. i'm sure george will say the same thing. the how you manage the russian thread, either it's soviet or it's today who's russia, russian student, all of the, all the non. but if the, if you, if you look at, in a more sober way, the biggest threat to europe is the connected state is not russia, then there is. and right now the connections between europe and russia are very, very limited in said to get even fewer links. ok, so really the, the, what's impacting europe is american policy american dicked out because, because the, the, the, the contact russia has with europe now is the lease, it's been in my lifetime. and i think probably a lot longer than that. go ahead mess. well, the united states has spent

a lot of time and effort on grooming its presence in europe, in western europe after the world war 2 of in eastern europe after the call of the berlin wall. and then the break up of the soviet union. and the process needs the transatlantic community. so to see that is incredibly, regardless of who's in power, who's in office. he's out here in the we're, he entered towards a greater alliance with united states. so it's not easy, of course to out, even not even the us presence, but the very thinking that the u. s. is ultimately the force of russia is the force of evil. and you know, occasionally, i mean, it's pretty clear, i guess, the pattern line, you know, kind of a roller coaster and now we see the russia threat kind of dominating the narrative . i wonder what the, you know, there might be some intellectual or it's not existential crisis. in terms of thinking of what to do with russia when and if it stops

and, you know, running the country now they have this beautiful bottom until the president. then perhaps the talks about, you know, hopes for russia being liberal, then they will run against the harsh reality. a lot of things that russia's been doing is not just prudent. it's a foreign policy. well, which, but i don't know if the content or, or but, but there is indeed a lot of things that are in russia strategic culture historically and yeah, i mean is that you bring up a very good point george. i mean, i always on the, to the point of humorous, if it weren't so dangerous, is that all, everything is personified. it's, you know, it's yelton, you know, you personify and then, then it can, you know, it has rushes national interest. it doesn't really change very much. ok. the only

great leader or? well, no leader that ever betrayed russia's national interest. was me help. got a bunch all, all the rest. it is been continuity. george, go ahead. yeah, that's right. of course, the biggest going to you is that yes, the west celebrates on a regular basis, some new leader. and then it becomes disenchanted with the new leader because the new leader insist on pursuing national interest. let me go back to the 19th. it is a popular figure for a while and then he became reviled figured by the early $900.00. 60. is this terrifying monster any show on the table? and shaking is a western leader. well, yeah, i mean, you know, if you were trying to somehow you deploy missiles in turkey and, you know, you to spice light. so the soviet union, you know, you're going to get a leader who's going to be angry and was also a time when it was celebrated,

you know, used to travel around the west. you visit the texas. no, you know, yes, t with the queen, you know, was a popular figure. but again, when was the, you know, you know, insisting on russian national interest suddenly became a middle aged madrid. it was also all right, now we've got rid of a so i think this is this personification of politics, which is absolutely did and, and has nothing to do with security. i want to thank my guests in moscow and in budapest and thank to our viewer for watching us. he already see you next time. remember crosstalk rules ah

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1950 the u. s. s. i was returning to peaceful life, but the newspapers didn't report ongoing massacres and the ukrainian ssr, according to intelligence ukranian nationalists and the ukrainian insurgent army, led by romans forgive. each perpetrated these atrocities to huge reserves about hold that, that was going well, but i shouldn't be self store anyway, you would be wise to be like push prism. of course we'll do, i mean your novels to the plot of was the head of the n k, v d sabotaged department of the time he was tasked with stopping the atrocities in ukraine for a good reason general. so the planter was very familiar with the situation he had experienced fighting the nationalist before the war, a little picture named lovelyn. she can't get a 0. do it. so didn't know, creamy. my name is paulette bunch. logan me. the task was tremendously difficult, but pseudo planter was determined to complete it. he had personal accounts central

with the ukranian nash, with a, [000:00:00;00] with at least 4 civilians are killed in 3 more injured. and don, yes, after the latest ukrainian attack on residential areas of the city, they local official the 1st e western vault and from it is that to kick off on tuesday at countries in the region appeared a pool and there in time to join the european block with the south african parliament rules to postpone a long awaited vote on president rama both was impeachment dr. after a recent bombshell report revealed,