[000:00:00;00] a hello and welcome to wells apart. sovereignty has long been a chair is geopolitical concept, which in a unipolar western centric world war more easily preached than practice. but as the old order continues to crumble and more governments are called to make hard and fast decisions on their own, what does it take to be a nation in your own right? to discuss it, i'm now joined by m k, but there are kumar in just former ambassador to turkey and his becca stand. ambassador, it's great to see you a great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for inviting me. you know, i'm an avid student of it's in philosophy,

particularly of an indian philosophy. and i know that for many indians, this notion this concept of some sar at the notion of basically cali to you of all life easy is very important. and coincidentally, that sounds good, it also means the world. and i think at this point of time, we're witnessing the 2 meanings of these worth come together because the world is changing fast. the international system is morphing dramatically, both in economic and political terms, but it's still unclear what is it had of us. if i were to ask you to take out with your crystal ball and give us your forecast, what would you say to that? i'm unfortunately, i'm a good note in the sense that i don't see much possibility of the situation. we're missing even improving in the

if you have to. so in this process with because there are some funding issues in warranty, in terms of the will notice that working in the international system, you know, there is an imposition of so called the rules based order and i'll be 3 in position since the board was in that and the system has been building up and now it is, in my opinion, it is crystallized and the, those it say, sorry, one countries. i think this is pretty internationally what we go more broadly. can i ask you specifically about, let's say ange, because this is one of the countries that not only has a stake in this shaping your world, but it also has enough influence to, you know,

be an influence or what do you think are some of the principles that are crucial for new delhi in terms of how this new great world is shaping out. we see. peace is the most important factor. be or prime minister has said would be to be that it's a small war. and that's 60 some stuff. the decision in thinking we are living in an eco so number 2, definitely he's feeling it was just one order number. see india as a number of bits. you don't want to do that in that stands for a democrat based on some call it. yeah. and that's what people

for the century when they call it sincerely, it will begin small countries. and so their interests can have your voice in days that they're going to be very fast. but as you will be with me, there is a commonality of interest with what is called the global. so it's a sort of a concern that is, it is closer to that was, that didn't seem to be that is the reality of interest. you know, so i go on this lines and then i saw that in the final point in their main concern is about you know, the country has made extraordinary achievements. and the last iteration of 15 years in the problem of 40, you know, i think other than china,

no countries the sort of experience we would not like to get in this fall. but i know and gather in development, which is sustainable to the next 15 to 20 years. now i heard you say in another interview, one of the ways that the west has been trying to adapt to the fast changing world is by setting number setting up organizations like g 20, which would show sort of more neil of respect to the growing influence of the north west, but still keep the norm in the leadership of the west. let's put it diplomatically. do you think those efforts have been effective? you know, trying to show respect nominal, respect to others, but still preserving your own privilege. history

shows that interest hours do not get all totally and loan own and we should be expected to be. so that is the most important thing to keep in mind. so there's a lot of patience. is there a lot of factors that require i completely agree with you, that the politics behind the creation of d 20 was actually on the stewards, the dissemination of the been existing? because for the d 7 at the last, the last relevance and the locus has shifted every from any further. and so that it is 7. so there is a great day that of the 11th. and this is buck obama spring at best time to in the context also of the financial crisis at that time in 2017 need to bring on board the newly emerging countries,

also in brit giving greater legitimacy for the leadership media. right. the thing that on a ship was not meant to be shifting substantively. we would remain, we think that was the thing, but i'm back. no, this is ultimately one of the most important questions for human development, both on an individual and in a national level. we all need authentic respect for our uniqueness, that automatically leads to the question of power distribution. because if you truly respect diversity, you won't demand the exclusive right to decide what's best for everyone else. isn't the concept of western leadership intrinsically so, promise this, you know, i, i don't think this is one dimensional situation. that's kind, i would be thinking there in the sense that, you know what you take, for example,

the ocean on the reform mission. this is going to go to be on this issue that you're having to be and you see how difficult it is when i sit established follows this sort of, you know, you know, look at the structure of the back and, you know, look at those 50 shadows can be brought down on russia, you know, because you see all of the instruments in the hands of one big one countries. but that's not the whole story. and you know, the process actually said the process is going to be extremely difficult, extremely difficult. and i'm not even in my life, you know, it's, that's actually the situation. i don't want to know the, i think, for example, united nations, properly and russia. russia has often pointed to some of those. so based on that,

we have to do, you can call me at once, but don't think countries national interests like india. he's a mini charlotte proposition today under the circumstances. now you, you wrote recently that the united states is no longer willing, are capable of shouldering these burden of leadership. and yet i think it wants to preserve the crown and sort of the, the privilege of the last word. because this is what the americans i used to, this is what they define and as their national interest, how far do you think they will be willing to go in defending that sort of been taught on both the u. s. representation and in actual power terms, because it's not only about whether or not, you know, countries have power or you know, a permanency that the united nations, but also how much they can utilize

a global trade or global policy to that aims receiving limitations unquestionably. and these limitations are only going to multiply in the, in the, in the, in the, in the near future. because we'd be fussing be this proportion, these speaking the, this is the unit, in other words, the unit for the united states. what is the problem? is it is unable to this, we stop reality that's, that's some of the, imposed to we on the community is possible and a kind of are easy enough required or solving any global problem for losing space. and so on. your p, the united states showing in order to branch to say not to talk about placement. so you say this is

a good example in front of us of how it is not also for the united states do it today. and i think we are, what we are wanting to know is agonizing about that. that's the united states is having station because you're getting right and mentioning that it also, you know, we need to get some beats from this box. this is thought that's the other end of the world that they have some shift is required in the american thinking and and this is not only with regard to russia, although it's also via sheets for food. unfortunately, even this is just that, you know, the city,

thank you and keep them amongst in the alarm system. zola, opposite the same thing that get messy, but this is francis at, in a bit of transition. this is inevitable. this will happen. you should expect. well, ambassador, we also have to take a very quick transition right now for a break, but we will be back in just a few moments station. mm mm hm. ah,

ah ah . ah welcome back to wells appoint. yes, m k, but a kumar, india warm ambassador to cherokee unders breakfast on ambassador before the break

we were talking about you know, the, the fact that the status quo, all western a dominated western centric world is no longer sustainable. and neither in political norion, economic terms, but the united states is still trying to impose its will on other states. and i think the current relationship with russia is one example of that. i don't know if you would agree with my interpretation, but i think the russians were forced to launch a military operation in ukraine because they cannot because they cannot maintain that status while the united states and nader ever pushing towards their borders and russia. doing that at the very high cost itself, i'm in thousands of virus service men on the battlefield. many, i killed many of our ukrainian neighbors. i killed millions on display. so it's, it's a huge tragedy both for us and for our neighbors. and russia is

doing that by and large by itself, with other countries watching from the sidelines. do you think though other countries, including india, have, have a stake in what's going on in your brain? you see in the question of ukraine we are discussing today it is got many dimensions. interesting. surely it is. it is, i think it's not both strategic balance. and when you look at it from that perspective, you will find that that is going to be a limited role only for countries like india, even for the closest to be in this. this is ultimately metal stone, something between us. and we have to understand that what

a beginning unfolding in february to see he's only recommendation of certain things . we want kids to my, my and i was posted in moscow at the time of the finally as the shows and was witness to that be so lapse and the end of the call. busy or we looked at it as in the united states as we are in prospect that they clearly, i'm just thinking of russia, russian history. you know, that's out of the region by the middle of the 1990 united states already starting discussing about working on pushing out the idea of fashion. so what was it all about? me see that it was being sent motion from beth a morning and before you go in your state,

you live and alternate the what the you know, and i don't think the russian mission will ever accept is subordinate. because you see it's an issue with, with a heritage kinds of national defense which by the organization of i of the green by the united states, which began incidentally for the 1st edition their game began. you know, so this is something which, you know, it's a lot of the same thing. that's the uniform and the feeling of so many things was asked to change in the united states. that is, what is the state. so what does that other countries can?

they cannot do anything about this situation, but today, you know, my next question may come across as a little bit strange, but i think it's highly relevant to our discussion because i was reading the other day about the efforts of some asian they ask for us to restore the positive symbolism of the swastika, they millennia old symbol that's used in hindu isn't in buddhism. angina is in many other indigenous communities around the world that came to represent peace and good fortune, that at least 15000 years old. and yet, if use as positive news is banned in the west. sometimes discourse sometimes have been punished and yet in, in the west, in western ukraine and sometimes in eastern ukraine. the use of not the insignia with direct appeals to keep lar, hacking crowds is not just tolerated but you know,

for everybody to see how do you explain the fact that, you know, the symbol in its causative sense is all but abolished. but in a negative sense, is more than tolerated in the, in the, in the, in philosophy is prevalent will ends even today as nothing to do with the ideal of the it's really right about that. but you know, we'll be looking at like an old saying this proposition to be false with the nazis didn't begin recently. it was there, even in the $92030.00. we know that isn't it, it be american companies working, working for the rebuilding of the germany and the mutually beneficial leasing ship

that existing at that day. and the kind of soft approach towards the face of this idea in europe at that time. so this is a continuation of that, this is not the case with the american and even the germans, you know, at the time of being might go with them. didn't go with these reduced stuff, you know, in kids. but, and that's what it is you, i'm sure. well know from instance, we'll also hear from indian philosophy. and there is a notion that all thing sooner or later come to the exact opposite. and we have had these examples, geopolitically in ghana started with the american support of the talent by the way, turned into a tragedy on america's own soil. do you think that kind of dealing with very unseemly forces?

do you think sooner or later they will come as in a form of the rank to their supporters? i think so because you see the point is to is the western narrative, which is the one because they control the information. and you know, the, since this is going on, you know, in the world. but i think for anyone to be reading the situation in the region, ukraine, russia and the flow history and all that taken into account. what they can start doing this for the war has no future and anything, not even out of the strength. also to find a. busy so you won't be seeing incrementally and they want to know more beyond the outcome of it. he's not been difficult

any for any internet, you know, so i certainly really optimistic that it can be turned on and i think it is being done. it's a 60 day see that's the beginning. as somebody who represented the engine diplomatically, i'm sure you have the greatest respect for your profession. and one of the things that really disheartening me at this time around is that you know, there's not only very little diplomatic negotiations between the, the russians and the americans. but even, you know, the basic african, the basic show respect. the diplomats would traditionally show not only to each other but also to their professional field, something like that is no longer required, but not tolerated. it seems that a show of disrespect, very public, very punishing, disrespect is something that is that venue order of the day. how do you see the

future of diplomacy in the, in the day, in age one, it's brita, accepted to be rude to one another. i mean the, on a diplomatic level at least, you see, i thought about this question doesn't come with very strange to me. but you know, i have a tape on this, this is basically this is there one or? and this is a byproduct of the situation that developed in europe in the past one book sheets and the american social again. and the strongest supporters of america, yuki and so on. also have an extra grains in blocking the process of implementing interaction. because what goes, what was the main challenge? one of the main challenges in the united states was the fact that in the post world war,

this conversations began developing between moscow and western capital. and i know for us, i know that there was a profound relationship with germany. for example, you know, we'd be really, you know, been austria and so on. so you see the point, there's a, is gone back to normal diplomatic, good to see. and all this work in russia, rapids and blocking that is necessary because it's not only that, you know, that the conversation is being locked. it is also the behavior like what, what the properties of the russian federation in the united states. no, you have any justification for it the why of, you know, we mentioned. so all of this is done with the book but, and, but at the same time,

ultimately in the final lenses when they're no longer be single sees of europe in politics. when conversations, after begin speaking, we said all countries with rates in international we're going to do songs, russia, whether it is austria, you know, so you see these conversations. i don't think that this is going to be the feature in feature of the international system. well, let's keep our fingers crossed on that while the western diplomatic track is blocked, at least for russia, diplomacy is clearly developing and flourishing on the eastern fraud. and i'm sure you would agree with me that the latest summits of breaks on the shanghai corporation organization, which features pretty impressive attendance from many have those they demonstrate that there is at least a nominal interest in kick, starting regional development. do you think it's just rhetoric at this point or do

you think be they have of those states finally ready to overcome the disagreements for, for the sake of common good. this is an increment process. it will reverse this term, but i think it is also anything sort of a process because you see the what you meant. she, what you are really a matter of. he's also that this is the so the locomotives of growth for the me to be ation brain. so you say that base automatically in new dynamics into the situation. you see. so, you know, a began saying that the needs with lot of obstacles. i mentioned about the u. n. reform. so, but the kind of a regional corporation is possible in the nation. please also be more, you know,

look at what the united states is done to it is actually, it was an organization. we should be enough politics on the international. it was a more organization that's way you know. but the, you know, the attempt to, to me, i get certain members are entering just, you know, obviously politics, all of the station. we didn't bet. so it's not death in the use ingredients. everything is far from it, you know, and my country, in my opinion, india ought to lead in different growth because india, booking, extending and india made it certain possible. but the time being we have to stop here. thank you very much for being with us. thank you of us and thank you for watching. i hope to hear again on worlds apart.

ah, with who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing. i figure which of the problem was the question, as we speak on the bill in your senior, mostly mine, or wish you were banding all imports of russian oil and gas new g i

. g, with regard to joe biden, imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang self. with headlines, banassi international, russia becomes india, leading oil supplier for a 2nd month in a row, in defiance of western pressure ethanol countries to join sanctions against those. the energy export also coming up. it looks like it was a rocket, multiple launch, walk it system grad. a flower shop was a strong one of the car is also on the fire report from the seat of the latest ukrainian shilling of russia going yes. well,

the way people are killed off the ra kid the,