[000:00:00;00] ah, i'm with welcome to worlds apart. sovereignty has long been a chair is geopolitical concept, which in a unipolar western centric world was more easily preached than practice. but as the

old order continues to crumble and more governments are hold to make hard and fast decisions on their own, what does it take to be a nation in your own right? to discuss it, i'm now joined by m. k brother kumar engine, former ambassador to turkey and has becca, stan. i'm fascinated, great to see you. a great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for inviting me. you know, i'm an avid student of it's in philosophy, particularly of indian philosophy. and i know that for many indians, this notion this concept of some sar at the notion of basically cali to you. of all life is very important. we're going to, dumpling sounds created, also means the world. and i think at this point of time, we are witnessing the 2 meanings of these worth come together because the world is changing fast. the international system is morphing dramatically, both in economic and political terms,

but it's still unclear what is it had of us. if i were to ask you to take out with your crystal ball and give us your forecast, what would you say to that? unfortunately, i'm going to get this notes in the sense that i don't see much also maybe off the situation missing even improving in the if you have to. so in that process will accelerate only further because there are some issues in warranty. in terms of the will notice that working in the international system, you know, there is an imposition of so called the rules based order and i'll be truly in position since the board war in this. and the resistance has been building up. and now it is, in my opinion,

it is crystallized and be those. it's really one countries. i think this is pretty all the international. well, we go more broadly. can i ask specifically about, let's say ange, because this is one of the countries that not only has a stake in this shaping new world, but it also has enough influence to, you know, be an implants or what do you think are some of the principles that are crucial for new delhi in terms of how this new great world is shaping out. what we see is the most important factor, you know, be, or prime minister has said repeatedly that this a small war. and that's 60 some stuff. the decision in thinking we are living in an equal so number 2

in the definitely he's feeling it was just one order number. see india as a member of it already signifies that in that stands for a democrat based on some call it multiple for the century. when they call it sincerely, it will be in small countries. so their interests can have your voice in days that they're going to be very fast. but as you will be with me, there is a commonality of interest with what is called the global. so it's a sort of been days that this is closer to that was they didn't guess that stephen

can be, that is the reality. so you know, so i go on this line and then i saw that. and the final point is their main concern is about development. you know, the country has made extraordinary achievements in the last generation of 15 years. in the problem of, you know, i think other than china know, countries as the sort of experience we would not like to get in this fall. but i know and gather meant we should sustainable to the next 15 to 15 years. now i heard you say in another interview, one of the ways that the west has been trying to adapt to the staff changing world is by setting number setting up organizations like g 20, which would show sort of there are more neil of respect to the growing influence of

the north west, but still keep the norman, the leadership of the west. let's put it diplomatically. do you think those efforts have been effective? you know, trying to show respect nominal, respect to others, but still preserving your own privilege. history shows that the interest hours do not at all and suddenly and long form and we should be expected to be. so that is the most important thing to keep in mind. so there's a lot of patience. is it quite a lot of factors require i completely agree with you that the politics behind the creation of the 20 was actually if, if all of the stewards that the submission of the existing order. because that the d 7 had lost the relevance and b locus shifted

it from any further. and so that it be so that the grid date of the 11th and this is buckled almost at best time to in the context. the also the financial crisis at that time in 2007, 2000 needs to bring on board. the newly emerging countries also in grid, given greater legitimacy for the leadership media, right. the finger on a ship was not meant to be shifting substantively. it would remain, we think that was the thing, but and that's know, this is ultimately one of the most important questions for human development, both on an individual and in the national level. we all need authentic respect for our uniqueness. and that automatically leads to the question of power distribution, because if you truly respect diversity,

you won't demand the exclusive right to decide what's best for everyone else. isn't the concept of what the leadership intrinsically. so promised this, you know, i, i don't think this is one of them, it's not a situation that's kind, i would like to be thinking that in the sense that, you know, what you take, for example, the, some of the reform admissions. this is going to go to the, on this issue that you're having to be and you see how difficult it is. when i sit established follows, i meant this sort of, you know, you know, look at the structure of the, i have one back. and, you know, look at those 50 shadows can be russia, you know, because to see all of the instruments in the hands of one big one. but that's not the whole story. and, you know,

the process actually said the process is going to be extremely difficult, extremely difficult. and i'm not even in my lifetime, you know, it's, that's actually the situation i want to know the bathroom can. for example, united nations properly and russian. russia has often pointed to some of those, so we have to do good columns and therefore be once a country's national interest, like india, is a mini sterling proposition to be under the circumstances. now you, you wrote recently that the united states is no longer willing or capable of shouldering this burden of leadership. and yet, i think it wants to preserve the crown and sort of be the privilege of the last

ward. because this is what the americans i use to this is what they defined as their national interest. how far do you think they will be willing to go in defending that sort of entitlement, both the us representation and in actual power terms, because it's not only about whether or not the countries have power or you know, a prominent see that the united nations. but also how much they can utilize global trade or global policy to the aims. cbs limitations, unquestionably. and these limitations are only going to most in the, in the, in the, in the, in the near future. because we be fussing b, this proportion, the speaking the, this is the unit for a lot. in other words, the unit for the united states is the problem is it is unable to this

with this stock reality that's imposed to assume we on the community and it's kind of where he's required or solving any global problem and see for loosely in space and so on your pete, the united states started showing an audio branch could say no to talk about placement. so you say this is instance, they didn't be the example in front of us how it is not possible for the united states. do it today. and i think we are, what we are wanting to know is agonizing is actually about that. that's. but i need to say that the united states is having station because you're getting right and mentioning that it also, you know,

we need to get some beats from this. this is thought that's the other end of the world. they have some shift is required in the american thinking in bio and this is lawfully with regard to russia. all the was is also via thing she, unfortunately even my, this is that is in europe, you know, the city and keep them amongst yes. in the alarm system, zola off of that the same thing that seems to be this is francis. i didn't have period of transition. this is inevitable. this will happen. you should expect. while ambassador, we also have to take a very quick transition right now for a break, but we will be back in just a few moments station. ah,

for 1950. the u. s. s. i was returning to peaceful life, but the newspapers didn't report ongoing massacres and the ukrainian ssr, according to intelligence ukrainian nationalists and the ukranian insurgent army, led by romans forgive. each perpetrated these atrocities for huge reserves that hold the bellows school. and what i should do self the new way. you would be wise to review. this is of course we'll do the manual novels to the plant of the head of the n. k, v. d. sabotage, department of the time he was tossed with stopping the atrocities in ukraine for a good reason. general suit, blancho was very familiar with the situation. he had experienced fighting the nationalist before the wall and get the movie, you know. and in love list, he can get

a 0. do it's inevitable. so didn't know could amy but it was let go get me. the task was tremendously difficult, but suit up lot of was determined to complete it. we had personal accounts to settle with the ukranian nationalists with ah welcome back to was of course yes m k but a kumar, india for my master to cherokee and as back is done ambassador before the break we were talking about you know, the, the fact that the status quo,

all western dominate that western centric world is no longer sustainable. and neither in political norion, economic terms, but the united states is still trying to impose its will on other states. and i think the current, the relationship with russia is one example of that. i don't know if you would agree with my interpretation, but i think the russians were forced to launch and military operations in ukraine because they cannot because they cannot maintain that status while the united states and nader ever pushing towards their borders and russia is doing that at the very high cost to itself, i'm in thousands of virus service men on the battlefield. many, i killed many of our ukrainian neighbors. i killed millions on display. so it's, it's a huge tragedy both for us and for our neighbors. and russia is doing that by and large by itself,

with other countries watching from the sidelines. gee thing though, other countries including india, have a stake in what's going on in your brain. you see where she know you agree we're discussing to be it got with strips. were interesting. surely it is. it is, i think, you know, both strictly in the balance and when you look at it from that perspective, you will find that that is going to be a limited role only for countries like india, even for the closest to this. this is ultimately metal stone to something between us. and we have to understand that what a beginning unfolding in february to see he's only recommendation of certain things

. we want free tickets to my mind. i was posted in moscow at the time of the finally as the shows and was witness to that be. so if you will lapse and the end of the call, or we look different as in the united states as we are in the prospect that clearly i'm just thinking of russia russian history. you know, that's just the region by the middle of the 1990 united states already started discussing about working on pushing out the idea of fashion. so what was it all about? me see that really if process was being sent in motion from beth a morning and for him you see

what the alternate, the what the you know, and i don't think the russian mission will ever accept is subordinate because it's an issue with, with a huge edits of national defense, which by the organization of of the green, by the united states, which began incidentally, people some for the 1st reducing their income and they began, you know, so this is something which, you know, again, it's a lot of the same thing. that's the uniform and the feeling of so many things was that you asked to change on the back of united states . that is one of the states. so what does that other countries can?

they cannot do anything about this is the situation with today. you know, my next question may come across as a little bit strange, but i think it's highly relevant to our discussion because i was reading the other day about the effort of some asian data for us to restore the positive symbolism of the swastika. they millennia old symbol that's used in hindu isn't in buddhism. angina is in many other indigenous communities around the world that came to represent peace and good fortune that leave 50000 years old. and yet, if use as positive news is banned in the west. sometimes discourse sometimes have been punished and yet in, in the west, in western ukraine and sometimes in eastern ukraine. the use of not to insignia with direct appeals to keep lar, hacking crowds is not just tolerated. but you know, for everybody to see how do you explain the fact that you know,

the symbol and it's causative sounds is all but abolish, but in a negative sense is more than tolerated in the in the, in philosophy. it's prevalent ryland's even today as nothing to do with and that's the ideal of the really right about that. but you know would be look at it like this and you seem to be talking with the nazis didn't begin recently. it was there, even in the $920.00. we know that isn't it. it be american companies working with looking for the rebuilding of nazi germany and the mutually beneficial leasing ship that existing at that day. and the kind of soft approach

towards the face of his ideal in europe at that time. so this is a continuation of different because they looked at, it's kind of the most to potentially be in the soviet union. and the idea ology is somebody to me, and it's founded at that point in time. and of course, it is entirely possible that the only reason in rhodes something which was going on lives in the rest and thinking they didn't find anything to be seen and need to be brought into it. this is history. so you see this is kind of bent in with you and i find, you know,

you not the case with americans and therefore it's very much only damage even the germans. you know, thank you for being my done. they go with them. you do go with these with this stuff you know, in care. but, and that's what it is you, i'm sure, well, no, from instance, we'll also hear from indian philosophy. there is a notion that all things sooner or later come to the exact opposite end. we have had these examples geopolitically in ghana started with the american support of the italian by the way, turned into a tragedy on america's own soil. do you think that kind of dealing with this, with very unseemly forces? do you think sooner or later they will come as in a form of a boomerang to their supporters? i think so, because you see the point,

this is the western managers. we missed the one because they control the information and you know, the census is going on, you know, in the world. but i think for anyone to be reading the situation with the region, ukraine, russia and the flow history and all that taken into account. what they really considered doing this for the war has no fuse. and anything, not even out of the strength, also to find a. busy so you want boost b c incrementally and they want to know more beyond the ability to outcome of he's not difficult to any for any internet, you know. so i certainly really optimistic that it can be turned on and i think it's being done. it's,

i think that's the beginning as somebody who represented the engine diplomatically, i'm sure you have the greatest respect for your profession. and one of the things that really disheartening me at this time around is that you know, there's not only very little diplomatic negotiations between the, the russians and the americans. but even, you know, the basic attic and the basic show respect. the diplomats were traditionally shown not only to each other but also to that professional field, something like that is no longer required but not tolerate that it seems that a show of disrespect very public, very punishing, disrespect is something that is that have been you order of the day, how do you see the future of diplomacy in the, in the day in age when it's greedy, accepted to be rude to one another. i mean, on a diplomatic level lately,

i thought about this, this christian doesn't come to me. but you know, i have to think on this basically this is there one or and this is a byproduct of the situation that developed in europe, in the past one a chines and the american social again and the strongest supporters of america, yuki and so on. also have an extra grains in blocking the process of implementing interaction. because what goes, what was the main challenge? one of the main challenges in the united states was the fact that in the post world war, this conversations began developing between moscow and western capital. and i know for us, i know that there was

a profound relationship with germany. for example, you know, we'd be really, you know, been austria and so on. so you see the point, there's a back to normal diplomatic, good to see. and all this work in russia, rapids and blocking that is weird because it's not only that, you know, that the conversation is being locked. it is also the behavior like what, what goes to the diplomatic properties of the russian federation in the united states? no, you have any justification for it the why of, you know, we mentioned. so all of this is done with the book, but, and, but at the same time, ultimately the find the lenses when the content from the long as the single face of europe in politics. when conversations up to begin speaking,

we said all countries with rates in international see, we're going to do the fans, russia, whether it's austria, you know, so you see these conversations, i don't think that this is going to be a big question. well, let's keep our fingers crossed on that while the western diplomatic track is blocked, at least for russia, diplomacy is clearly developing and flourishing on the eastern fraud. then i'm sure you would agree with me that the, the latest summits of breaks or the high corporation organization which featured are pretty impressive attendance from many have stayed demonstrate that there is at least a nominal interest in kick, starting regional development. do you think it's just rhetoric at this point or do you think be they have of those states? i find that we are ready to overcome the disagreements for,

for the sake of common good income. and it will give us this number. but i think it is also anything sort of a process because you see the what you and she, what you are really matter of is also that this is the so the local motives of growth are they want me to be ation. so you say that base automatically in new dynamics in this situation. you see. so, you know, a began saying that that means a lot of obstacles i mentioned about the un reforms and so, but the kind of corporation is possible invasion continent. please also be more, you know, look at what the united states is done to it is actually does it organization, which is the biggest gen, be enough politics on the international. and it is

a more organization that's way you know, but they know the attempt to to, to me i get certain members and just, you know, i wanted the holidays dish and we didn't bet. so it's not death in the isn't greedy and everything is far from it, you know, and my country, in my opinion, india ought to lead in different growth. you know, because there's booking standing and india made it certain possible for the time being. we have to stop here. thank you very much for being with us. thank you. and thank you for watching. i hope to hear again on worlds apart. ah

with . mm. lou needs to come to russian state will never be tied up on the most 19 div, asking him not getting a group in the 55 with the new one home with will ban in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on to russia, to date and c r t spoke neck, even our video agency roughly all band on youtube with