[000:00:00;00] ah hello and welcome to worlds apart. sovereignty has long been a chair is geopolitical concept, which in a unit polar was centric world war more easily, preach then practice. but as the old order continues to crumble and more governments are hold to make hard and fast decisions on their own, what does it take to be a nation in your own right? to discuss that, i'm now joined by m k brother kumar in just former ambassador to turkey and has becca, stan. i'm fascinated, great to see you. a great to talk to. thank you very much for your time. thank you for inviting me. you know, i'm an avid student of it's in philosophy,

particularly of indian philosophy. and i know that for many indians, this notion this concept of some sar at the notion of basically ecology of all life is very important. and coincidentally, that sounds great. it also means the world and i think at this point of time, we're witnessing the 2 meanings of these worth come together because the world is changing fast. the international system is morphing dramatically, both in economic and political terms, but it's still unclear what is ahead of us. if i were to ask you to take out your crystal ball and give us your forecast, what would you say to that? a negative note in the sense that i don't see much possibility of the situation arresting, even improving in the if you have to. so it's

a because there are some of them under the shooting warranty. in terms of the will notice that working in the international system, you know, there is an imposition of so called the rules based order and i'll be truly in position since the board war in this. and the resistance has been building up. and now it is, in my opinion, it is crystallized and the, those, it's not only one countries, i think this is pretty all the was internationally. well, we go more broadly. can i ask specifically about, let's say ange, because this is one of the countries that not only has a stake in this shaping new world, but it also has enough influence to, you know, be an employer answer. what do you think are some of the principles that are

crucial for new delhi in terms of how this new great world is shaping out? or you see if you, the most important factor or prime minister has said repeatedly that it's a small war. and that's 60 some stuff the decision in thinking we are living in and i mean, so number 2 definitely he's feeling it was just one order number. see india then number of bits. we've already signifies that in that. ringback stands for a democrat based on some call it multiple

only simply when they call it sincerely, it will be going small country can so their interests can have your voice in days that they're going to be very fast. but as you will be with me, there is a commonality of interest with what is all the global. so that's what i've been days that is closer to that was that didn't seem to be that is the reality. so you know, so i go on this line and then i saw that in the final point in their main concern is about development. you know, the country has made extraordinary achievements. and the last generation of 15 years in the problem of, you know, i think other than china know,

countries as the sort of experience we would not like to get in this fall or, you know and gather meant we should sustainable to the next 15 to 15 years now i heard you say in another interview that one of the ways that the west has been trying to adapt to these fast changing world is by setting um, or setting up organizations like g 20 which would show sort of there are more neil of respect to the growing influence of the north west, but still keep the norman, the leadership of the west. let's put it diplomatically. do you think those efforts have been effective? you know, trying to show respect nominal, respect to others, but still preserving your own privilege. history shows that interest hours do not have to get all totally and

loan on and we should be expected to be. so that is the most important thing to keep in mind. so there's a lot of patience is required, a lot of factors is required. i completely agree with you that the politics behind the creation of the 20 was actually if, if all of the stewards that the submission of the existing order. because that the d 7 had lost the relevance and b locus shifted it from any further than that. it be so then the grid date of the 11th and this is buckled almost 3 years at that time to in the context. and also the financial crisis at that time in 2017, and needs to bring on board the newly emerging countries. also in brit giving greater legitimacy for the leadership media,

right. the ship was not meant to be shifting substantively with what remained. we think that was the thing that i'm that know this is ultimately one of the most important questions for human development. both on an individual and in a national level. we all need authentic respect for our uniqueness. and that automatically leads to the question of power distribution. because if you truly respect diversity, you won't demand the exclusive right to decide what's best for everyone else. isn't the concept of what the leadership intrinsically so promised this, you know, i, i don't think this is one of them. it's not a situation that i would like to be thinking in the sense that, you know what you think. for example, the, some of the reform admissions,

this is going to go to be on this issue that you're having to be. and you see how difficult it is. you know, when i sit established follows this sort of, you know, you know, look at the structure of the, i went back and looked at post, 50 shadows can be brought down on russia. you know, because you see all of the instruments in the hands of one big one countries, but that's not the whole story. and you know, the way said the process is going to be extremely difficult, extremely difficult. and i'm not even in my lifetime, you know, it's, that's actually the situation. i don't want to know the bathroom care, for example, united nations properly and russian. russia has often so

we have to do good columns and therefore be once a country's national interest, like india, is a mini charlotte proposition to be the circumstances. now you, you wrote recently that the united states is no longer willing or capable of shouldering these burden of leadership. and yet i think it wants to preserve the crown and sort of the, the privilege of the last war. because this is what the americans i used to, this is what they define and as their national interest, how far do you think they will be willing to go in defending that sort of entitlement, both the u. s. representation and in actual power terms, because it's not only about whether or not, you know, countries have power or you know, a permanency that the united nations, but also how much they can utilize that global trade or global policy to that aims

. cbs limitations, unquestionably. and these limitations are only going to most of in the, in the, in the, in the, in the near future. because we'd be fussing be this proportion the speaking the, this is the unit. in other words, the unit for the united states is the problem. is it is unable to this with this stock reality that's, that's some of the imposed of we on the community is possible. and it's kind of where he's required for solving any global problem. and people lose the space and so on. your pete, the united states, started showing in the branch to say, now you talk about placement. so you say this is instance,

they didn't be the example in front of us how it is not also for the united states do it today. and i think we are, what we are wanting to know is agonizing. you should be about that. that's but i need to say that the united states is having station because you're getting right and mentioning that it also, you know, we need to get some beats from this. this is thought that's the other end of the world that they have some shift is required in the american thinking in bio. and this is not only with regard to russia, although it's also via thing she. unfortunately, even we certainly do my, this is that you know, the city,

thank you and keep them amongst yes. in the alarm system, zola offer that the same thing. that seems to be a business transition. i mean a bit of transition. this is inevitable. this will happen, you should expect, while ambassador, we also have to take a very quick transition right now for a break, but we will be back in just a few moments station. ah ah. with them boss with you?

i just need them grab missouri with key at the ocean cruise. keep the process is to dealer molly complete with us for go to you guys to phone us in the full could i get you what i need to do with you with the plexi professional lithium. do you have a list of all but each with ah ah welcome back to wells fargo, we have m k medical mar india, poor mom bass mentioned cherokee and was breakfast on. i said before the break we

were talking about. you know that the fact that the status quo all western a dominate that western center world is no longer sustainable. and neither in political norion, economic terms. but the united states is still trying to impose its will on other states. and i think the current, the relationship with russia is one example of that. i don't know if you would agree with my interpretation, but i think the russians were forced to launch and military operations in ukraine because they cannot because they cannot maintain that status while the united states and nater ever pushing towards their borders and rushing doing that at the very high cost to itself, i'm in thousands of virus service men on the battlefield. many i killed and many of our ukrainian neighbors. i killed millions on display. so it's, it's

a huge tragedy in both for us and for our neighbors. and russia is doing that by and large, by itself, with other countries watching from the sidelines. g thing though, other countries including india, have a stake in what's going on in your brain. you see what, you know, your grade we are discussing today. it got with some strips or just some silly you do. so it is i think it was don't both strictly in the balance. and when you look at it from that perspective, you will find that that is going to be a limited role only for countries like india, even for the united states closest to this. this is ultimately stone to something between us. and we have to understand what

a beginning unfolding in february to see he's only recommendation of the 2nd thing that we want for free tickets to my my and i was posted in moscow at the time of the finally as the shows and was witness to that be so if you will lapse and the end of the call or we look different as in the united states as we are in fact that clearly i'm just thinking of russia russian history. you know, that's all we generate by the middle of the 1990 united states already started discussing about working on pushing out the idea of fashion. so what was it all about? me see that really? it was being sent in motion from beth

a more and for him you see what the alternate, the, what the you know, and i don't think the russian mission will ever accept is subordinate. because it's an issue with, with a huge, irritates, of national defense. which by the organization of i of the green by the united states, which began incidentally, people some for the 1st edition there began, you know, so this is something which, you know, again, is lot of the same thing. that's the uniform and the feeling of so many things was that you asked to change on the back of united states

. that is one of the states. so what does that other countries can? they cannot do anything about this. this is the situation that said today, you know, my next question may come across as a little bit strange, but i think it's highly relevant to our discussion because i was reading the other day about the effort of some asian data for us to restore the positive symbolism of the swastika, they millennia old symbol that's used in hindus and buddhism. angina is in many other indigenous communities around the world that came to represent peace and good fortune, that at least 50000 years old. and yet, if use as positive use is banned in the west, sometimes discourse sometimes have been punished and yet in, in the west, in western ukraine. and sometimes in, in the ukraine, the use of not to insignia with direct appeals to sheep lar,

hacking cro. it's is not just tolerated, but you know, for everybody to see how do you explain the fact that you know this symbol and it's causative stance is all but abolish, but in a negative sense is more than tolerated in the in the, in philosophy. it's prevalent ryland's even today as nothing to do with this was really right about that. but you know, we'll be looking at like in this position to be talking with the nazis didn't begin recently. it was there, even in the $920.00. we know that isn't it, in the american companies working with looking for the rebuilding of the germany

and the mutually beneficial leasing ship that existing at that day. and the kind of soft approach to the base of his ideas in europe at that time. so this is a continuation of different because they looked at, it's kind of the most to put them to be in the soviet union. and the idea ology is somebody to me and it's on that at that point in time. and of course, it is in tony also me that's the only reason in wrote something which was, you know, going on like in the rest and thinking they didn't find anything you know, to be seen and need to be brought into it history. so you see,

this is kind of that in we do not wish you and i find, you know, you not the case with americans and therefore it's very much even the germans, you know, thank you for being my done go with security. you do go with the reduced stuff you know in care, but, and that's what it is you, i'm sure, well know, from instance, we'll also hear from indian philosophy. there is a notion that all things sooner or later come to the exact opposite end. we have had these examples geopolitically in ghana started with the american support of the italian by the way, turned into a tragedy on america's own soil. do you think that kind of dealing with this, with very unseemly forces? do you think sooner or later they will come as in a form of

a boomerang to their supporters? i think so because you see the point, this is the western meadows, if we miss the one because they control the information and you know the school since this is going on, you know, in the world. but i think for anyone viewing the situation and similarly with the region, your green russia and the flow is free and all that. so what they really can. so doing this for the war has no use. and anything not even, you know, of the strength also to find it. so if they want boost b. c incrementally and they want to know war beyond their capabilities, the outcome of it you stop it difficult to any or any internet. you know.

so i certainly very optimistic that it can be turned around and i think it is being done it's, i think that's the beginning. if somebody who represented the india diplomatically, i'm sure you have the greatest respect for your profession. and one of the things that really disheartened me at this time around is that in there is not only very little diplomatic negotiations between the, the russians and the americans. but even, you know, the basic african, the basic show of respect. the diplomats were traditionally show not only to each other but also to that professional field, something like that is no longer required but not tolerate that it seems that a show of disrespect very public, very punishing, disrespect is something that is that a venue order of the day, how do you see the future of diplomacy in the, in the day in age when,

if it's greedy accepted to be rude to one another. i mean on the diplomatic level lately, thought about this, this christian doesn't come. it's strange to me. but you know, i have basically this is there one or can and this is a byproduct of the situation that developed in europe in the past one a chines and the american social again. and the strongest supporters of america, yuki and so on. also have an extra grains in blocking the process of diplomatic interaction. because what goes, what was the main challenge? one of the main challenges faced me. the united states was the fact that in the post world war, this conversations began developing between moscow and western capital.

and i know for i know that there was a profound relationship with germany. for example, you know, we'd be city, you know, we, austria and so on. so you see the point, there's a, it's on back than normal diplomatic courtesies and all this work industry, russia, rapids and blocking that is weird because it's funny that you know that the conversation is being locked. it is also the behavior like what, what goes to the properties of the russian federation in the united states? no, you have any justification for it the why they should be enough. and then so all of this is done with the book but, and, but at the same time, ultimately the final lance is when the content from the long is the 2nd seas of

europe in holidays. when conversations up to begin speaking, we said all countries with additions in international c, when it is from russia, whether it's austria, you know, so you see these conversations. i don't think that this is going to be a big question. well, let's keep our fingers crossed on that while the western diplomatic track is blocked, at least for russia, diplomacy is clearly developing and flourishing on the eastern fraud. and i'm sure you would agree with me that the, the latest summits of breaks or the high corporation organization which featured are pretty impressive attendance from many has of state demonstrate that there is at least a nominal interest in kick, starting regional development. do you think it's just rhetoric at this point or do you think be they have of those states?

i find that we're ready to overcome the disagreements for, for the sake of common goods, incremental thoughts. it will give us this term, but i think it is also anything sort of a process because you see the what you meant. she, what you are really matter of. he's also that this is the so the local motives of growth are they want me to be patient. so you say that automatically in new dynamics in this situation. you see. so, you know, a began saying that that means a lot of obstacles. i mentioned about the un reforms and so, but the kind of corporation is possible invasion continent please also be more, you know, look at what the united states is done to it is actually does it organization,

which is the biggest can be enough politics on the internationally and it is a more organization that we, you know, but they know the attempt to take away certain members and we do not want the holidays issue. we didn't bet it's not death and the use ingredients. everything is far from it, you know, and my country in my opinion, india ought to lead in different growth. you know, because there's booking standing and india made it such as possible for the time being. we have to stop here. thank you very much for being with us. thank you. and thank you for watching. i hope to hear again on worlds

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