ah ah, i'm african returns you welcome back to going under ground in the week of called 15 the you ends conference on life itself by diversity which are supposed to be in china. the issue of food security is only just been debated here in dubai where i'm

speaking to you from. and it's urgency was on the line this week by farmers unions in a britain sending billions of dollars a weapons gray morning that even the u. k. asleep walking into a food supply crisis. all this as nature, nations, blame russia for hundreds of millions across the global south going hungry this christmas. who or what is to blame then? is it is the un claims humanities wool with nature leading the un committee on world food security up until a few weeks ago was chris hagar, dawn, he joins me from francis capital. paris, thank you so much, chris, for coming on. i better 1st. just start asking by asking you won't be willed? food security committee actually is some people might not know, it was set up all the way back in 974. let me clarify was the secretary or 3 and a half years up until the end of october. and the committee indeed was set up in 70 or in a context of a global food crisis that was back in the days when there was

a massive famine in east pakistan. now bangladesh and the global community l. a multilateral setting, such as the cfs would be away for countries to come together to address the result, crises, it done, its job, helping countries and experts to play their part in addressing changing good security issues that it was reformed in 2009 at the height of another crisis, and so it's a very different institution than it was when it started bringing a expert scientific animal into the process. bringing all 3 of the rome, you and agencies together in one in one platform and enjoying the un members with the experts all around the u. n. system, the civil society, private sector at the bretton woods institutions like the world bank. and everyone

is part of that conversation to address policy convergence with embassy for us. i mean, i don't want to be to mean obviously chris, but even before the week basket of europe, you grain facing what it is right now. we have 828000000 hungry this christmas. i'm not blaming it all on you. obviously it's all the stakeholders that have about to play. why is the world food security committee fail failing? what? why, why is it such a failure? we know there's enough food to feed the earth, what 3 dimes over, and it's not a supply problem but, but say, why wire all these people facing starvation this christmas? well, it's exactly a big problem and, and those numbers which you cited which come from the sophie 2022 report actually for to the previous year. so i would be surprised that those numbers are higher. f a o just came out with a report in early december saying 45 countries on urgent need of food assistance.

33 of them in africa, all reeling with the issues of climate. coven 19 soaring inflation. and of course, the major driver at the conflicts which are going on around the world, including the one you cited between russian crane. i mean that 4000000 children involved in britain, but i mean that, that can't be the problem cova and all these other things kind of, i mean, of course it is, it's part of it or dropping food is, is extremely expensive. you know, the wsp. well, i know from or other interviews you've had you're, you're very aware of what the situation is and who the players are. and this is extremely complex. i, it's issue. first of all, no one can even agree on exactly how to solve world hunger. we have targets in s t g to am, but it's extremely complex and the conflicts in particular which just seem to be

expanding them are really tipping the balance. the invasion of ukraine in february of this past year, of course, was the invasion of a country that is one of the major bread baskets of the world for weed, for rains, for sunflower oil. one question i have to ask is, the greatest successful food security provision? perhaps in all world history was performed by the chinese communist party 800000000 out of poverty, of course, and feeding 800000000 in a space of a couple of decades. 75 percent of global poverty reduction in 40 years. do you notice that there's something different about the way the chinese communist party operate or the body in cuba, i suppose, which is sanctioned? don't involve private stakeholders or private actors. did your time in the committee on world food security take on board that the most successful food security operation can be made by copying?

perhaps the chinese communist party. why it's actually my experience before the see about when i was a diplomat living in china. i got 1st hand to witness the way the chinese work. and if you go back to the late seventy's after the cultural revolution shall hang, introduce market reforms, which actually input private sector and the profit motive into play, which is what help drive china's rather remarkable experience and bringing that many people out of poverty. so yes, china is a member of the sea of china's active in the f, a o as you know, in fact that the director general, the fios is chinese. and so their experience does bear on, on, on everything from research and science to i know, the way the global system and trade works. no, don't tell turbine clearly because you get the fun. i mean you are unesco as well.

you saw how that the money dried up on, on that one. obviously the kind of private sector increased involvement in the market reforms in china are very different to the private scale stakeholders today in global food security in western nations. though, what i mean, what is the power of where we're intervening? dr. london achiever, the pioneer of the one of the pioneers went to globalization on the show in a week or so time on this show. and she's been saying it is these private corporate stakeholders that a big international institutions mix up with very different, arguably to the small stakeholders that china was favoring in their agricultural revolution. it's their fault. that's why there's all these hundreds of millions that are starving this christmas. it's not ukraine. it's not her cove. it, it's actually something much more systemic if we have enough food in the world. and

it's the drive for profit from say, fertilizer companies that's really causing the starvation. i suspect you want to talk to a nobel prize winning economist who can work out the macroeconomics on this. one point is china does engage in the global trade market. it is heavily dependent on importance of certain products for me, production, it exports a lot. so to, to differentiate china between the, the rest of the training system, i would look at the issues that coven didn't unveil. i think in the global supply of food is quite, is quite revealing, particularly the concentration in the hands of a few small, small number of companies trading companies in the ways that agriculture trading is done shipping the insurance, everything involved including for fertilizer and key in core to agriculture,

hugely state controlled, right. i mean the, the okay, perhaps we're talking too much on china. i mean, eritrea say pick eritrea. 100 percent food security sanctioned by the united states and european governments take cuba sanctioned by the united states. why is it these countries that are outside the economic system? do so well on food security, take eritrea. i mean, you must deposit your desk at the committee for world food security. no error trays, not one that i've dealt with very often. they weren't active it, but i do know read as much as i can on, on the region. it is a particularly vulnerable country and particularly with what we're seeing as a result of climate change. and i know you're interested in sanctions, issues in the politics around that. and the fact of the matter is a much larger number of people are suffering and impacted by climate change. we're not addressing it in the way it needs to be addressed. either in the you and

framework convention, the cops us one held not far from eritrea. and jermel shake. we have to seriously, the continued use of fossil fuels at the base of our agricultural systems is leaving, it's very vulnerable. you seen the horn of africa? droughts are putting millions at risk at the locus infestation. all the changes that are manifested in this type of, i know that, i mean the britain has just announced a massive trade deal with the united states to sub importing ellen, g guess refract areas of louisiana. and new knows where else in the united states as fracking, and i think we can both agree that's probably not good for climate judge. that's kind of over, isn't it? i mean, that kind of, i mean, talk, i mean there's lots of talk about it at conferences. again, one of the biggest image is jain are saying solar power mass, so, and so on. and all these different breakthroughs, western nations, they,

they don't seem to be that bullet about fossil fuels anymore of to what happens in ukraine. do they? yeah, i think there is a recognition. i think more has to be done. but i think there are very clear commitments that have been made the u. s. is back in the person. and there is a framework in mind to get to that 0 from the energy sector and cor, it's the largest contribution to greenhouse gases. i think there has to be realization and the investment to go with it. that fossil fuel consumption is not the way forward. we have to stop in recovery from proven you see this huge burst in, in energy consumption, putting in coal, another fossil fuels. we have to, we have to incentivize renewables in a much stronger way. everyone guy know, agrees with all of that. and of course, the critics on both sides a, there vested interests in the green movement. we're not doing what they're saying

and so forth. but on global food security, your central role as a secretary of the, the committee with the f l. a u. n committee i, i think many of you may want to know, and i, i us agnes calabasas at this v u. n. special envoy. she acknowledged that there were problems with neo liberal models of the way systems worked when it came to food. have you personally experienced lobbying of any kind when you were at the un wilson food security committee? of course it's the u. n. is a political body. so lobbying goes on everywhere, including up to cfs, cfs, it's a committee that is hosted at the f o. but it's a multi lateral body with a 133 member it's, it's again, it's, it's decisions are made by the members, but it's relies on the technical expertise of f, e, o,

e. and if you have p to lobby is going on because every country, every region has its views on their own domestic interest, their own private lobbying, private, loving, well, those private sector is part of cfs. so of course there is a private sector representation just like there is a civil society group. chris agra. i'll stop you there. more from the former secretary view and committee on world food security after this break. ah, ah

ben. hello, a man in man in a baby with hey hey, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is on of very dramatic development. only personally and

getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful. very katie, killed time. time to sit down and talk with welcome back to going undergrad. i'm still here with the former secretary, the you and committee on world food security, chris hagedorn. on private lobbying, how does it work at these big, you know, international level discussions? does someone put a can round up on the table and say, is this fear god? because these are pretty powerful companies that you're dealing with and their lobbyists. right? let me emphasize was dealing with because i'm no longer secretary, but the, i'm again, the weight of cfs is at it is a big tent that brings in every one in rome, of course has a center for food issues within the u. n. so you have an active participation of

science, this of diplomats, of private sector and civil society groups. everybody who, who has a stake in this game. now we went through, we develop policy recommendations on the topic of innovation. and as we wound up changing the name to innovative approaches, agro ecological and other innovative approaches. because there's an ongoing debate about whether agro college is the way forward or more industrial types of food production. and so that's the type of political debate that's going on all the time, including after us. what's your v 8 it? my view is that i think there is plenty of room for agro ecological approaches using technology using science and research and using entered data. data systems are notoriously weak, particularly in the countries that are most food insecure. so if you can link data to policy making, so people actually are making decisions based on the facts. yes,

this is a very good. so i think there is much room for a move towards regenerative agriculture. there's plenty of data out there. are companies that are collecting data into satellite data, others, but which company was there's the google's and the various folks who are using satellite data for everything from traffic to try to tracking your food purchases. but it's data that will help countries stick to a strategy to use agriculture to get out of already. this is the way we see data systems and the importance of data being tied to policies for governments and policy makers are actually making informed decision. you mentioned google there, i mean, some would say, especially those who are lobbying in a very different direction. you don't believe that these 2 2nd segments of food

security can co exist, would say no forget google. forget bear and co teva, or i understand is the company that came through from, from dow, forget these companies, small holding farms, produce ball food. in fact, i gave you a tray as an example earlier that, that's what you do. you have small holdings and you don't industrialize farming, which some say creates health risks. the prevalence of allergies, all sorts of different problems associated with mechanized industrial production, and that in fact, the fact that he has they can produce enough food anyway. we don't need this industrialization. actually, what you're saying is symptomatic of a desire for profit and shield a value on wall street. far more than feeding these hundreds of millions that will starve in the next few days. your words, not mine, but i understand you're trying to to find the story here it's, it's a transition there there's they have to go. it's, it's,

there are different models and there are different ways of doing business, whether it's united states or cambodia or some other smaller developing countries. doesn't have the same access to resources that the global market, sir, the market in the trading system is not going to go away and it has to be respected, or the most efficient allocation of resources. question is, how's the trading system and prove this is what i'd like to see the w t o doing a better job in addressing these inequalities. they the lack of resilience in the trading system. the codes are unveiled and addressed the issue of subsidies ad you mean the w t o, in terms of protecting intellectual property rights for seeds or reducing protectionism in the european union. was literally has that terrible record say the globe many members of the global south?

yeah, no, i understand the criticisms, i understand where it can do better. and the fact of the matter is the, the forum where the rules are made and applied and disputes are resolved. what i think is important. one of the most important things for you to, to do is to make sure that ex work restrictions are avoided at all cost. certainly those that are not within the rules. and you know, there were upwards of 39 export restrictions. as late as august of this year, i think the number has gone down since, but those are what most people us ascribed as the root cause of the crisis back in 2009 when countries slash export restrictions on rice. so following rules, striking those rules and putting teeth in the system when those rules are broken, i think is something that the retail can can look at very squarely. and i think

they are. i know the dumbly d o poses or appears to it has to play very diplomatic, a side step dance on this opposed it. a lot of us sanctions, i don't know how many countries the united states sanctions right now. an incalculable always be china and other countries. when it comes to industry, i'm sure that breaks w t o rules. but are you as sanctions actually a force for good in that they make individual economies that i mentioned earlier, sustainable and better able to create food security in those countries. the bolivian president was on was on this show. he intimated that obviously, as i said, cuba, people in nicaragua and you name it, every country in the world that has been hugely sanctioned by the united states. and nato nations usually creates food security by being outside of this global mechanism and trade mechanism, which makes him over reliance on

a few corporations. or, i mean this is obviously an extremely complex topic. there are rules and when the rules are followed, there has to be some system in place to, to make people follow the rule. but look, if there is, i think, a mis characterization of what sanctions, how the replied that how they're enforced economic sanctions, obviously, or a tool in economic state craft. but typically food and medicines are exempt from sanctions regime. same or russia, ukraine. it's the same for cuba and i know there's a lot of complexity beyond that general statements, but typically food is not on the list of sectional. i don't, i'm not, i mean, in iraq, her, the sanctions against that i was saying that preceded the war. and how may i know, how many was they'll you know, that you know, venezuela been lame sanctions for impoverishing and one estimate on 21000 debt is

it from, from sanctions? i know you speak with a great deal of authority because of course you were a diplomat. previously. i last a last year. not a clue. you know that close to ger widen. but you did work as an intern. bear, and you were as assistant. tell me, tell me what you expect from joe biden on world of food security given that the world is facing such a such a terrible threat. this christmas i did work for then senator biden, on my 1st job in washington before going off to grad school. i have a lot of respect for him, his wife, dr. joe biden, and stuff that i worked with who were absolutely top notch. i know, yes. really is head not in the right place when it comes to dealing with, with the world's problems. especially the conflicts that are,

that are going on around the world that are causing so much intruded security. so i think, you know, the, the 1st response was addressing covered at the loss of life, massive loss of life in the united states and trying to help deliver vaccines around the world. and then domestic issues about how to address food insecurity in u. s. i know you're aware of that out of numbers, which are fairly surprising, upsetting in the u. s. number of people who are on either economic assistance or lining up it soup kitchen. so these are things that, that it home for america, sir, as well as well as those around the world, one segment of the pro democrat camp who believe that he's completely out of touch and funded by what credit card and complete in delaware, i finance. and he doesn't care i, i don't really, everybody has critics. i don't see. i don't see that the criticism is valid,

i think by the administration is doing its best to not only take care of american farmers and changed the dynamic. if you look at a political map of who boats for room in the u. s, you look at the read states, those are the ones where food is grown. i think mr. biden is agriculture. secretary, i understand that you have to have to win the hearts and minds of farmers to, to continue to be elect, how do conference, israel and we given culture 15 is on given, i know there's a conference today where you're speaking with the head of the w h o, how do we're or, or yesterday i how, how do they help food security? i mean, it would be unkind, would need to say if only the poor could eat conferences, but you do enjoy them because them, the kinds of people that go to these conferences is more often than not, not the poorest people or other you're right in that

regard but i think is conferences, do bring people together who can bring different perspectives and experiences. having the director general the w h. obe, speak on a conference panel looking at food security makes it very clear that those 2 issues, food security, and nutrition are inseparable. i had the number one killer in the world is diet related disease. we're talking about heart failure, diabetes, cancer's people dying of her early death because of the foods they eat, alter process foods, sugar fats, salts. do you eat organic food? i do. yup. i make a point of it. you buy pesticide, free gym of free food. whenever i can, bull. well, i'm willing to pay a little extra to avoid the risk of the what ifs. i would much rather eat locally

grown a healthy organic food in c o the, you know, the, the big companies the go to the conferences that we just talked about. um, they say that, that they're safe. i mean, i, i, you know, bill gates, i know the miller melinda gates circle, racial fund, a lot of these things. gates and i've never been shy about my passion for fertilizer. it's a magical innovation that is responsible for saving millions of lives from hunger, lifting millions at a party. what are you doing? eating food that isn't being given chemical fertilizers. listen, mother nature does it, right. it's the best way to to grow and grow food. my opinion, yes, we've been able to use scientific advances to increase the yield. so of certain plants, rice plants, weed plants. you name it. it's impressive, but has it resolves the hunger issue?

the answer is no. i think if we get back to the basics of her letting mother nature do what she does best, which is balancing out s in the fog, i am the disease is with, with are human bodies in human and biome. i think we will all be better off now, population is, is running very high, population increases and this is something that is not talked about very often. and, but what's better at seeing people star, we're feeding them with. oh, that is produced with chemical fertilizers and have to say, i'd rather see people eating g m o industrial produce food than starved, but now we have for ignite issues to, to resolve on the score. well, the companies will say that it's completely safe to eat their fertilizer food, all the big chemical companies. and some people say that it's, it's not a,

it's not a choice at all because there's enough food bit, chris, i good, thank you. and that's it. i sure will be back next week with a nother brand new episode, but until then you can still keep in touch by all of our social media if it's not centered in your country, but you can always had to watch hello going underground tv on rebel. don't come to watch new and all that sort of coming up with a shorter one. and i'm not going to stay like a national z. m u shyly yours is my dear bye. when you sit

down with the headlines, it's our, the latest round of the ukraine artillery show you has reported the killed st. villians as residential areas were targeted in the home will destroy brushes. president says it appears the pain never intended to abide by previous agreements. and now western powers a feeling the conflict with um all teeth exposed to the man dubbed much that by his release from a dealer jail in the business between moscow and washington.