ah ah, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on, often very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk with ah,

i'm african returns, you're welcome back to going under ground in the week of called 15. the un conference on life itself by diversity, which was supposed to be in china. the issue of food security is only just been debated here in dubai where i'm speaking to you from. and it's urgency was on the line this week by farm, as unions, in a britain sending billions of dollars a weapons to you grain warning that even the u. k. asleep walking into a food supply crisis. all this as nature, nations, blame russia for hundreds of millions across the global south going hungry this christmas. who or what is to blame then? is it is the u. n. claims humanities, wool with nature, leading the un committee on world food security. up until a few weeks ago was chris haggard dawn. he joins me from francis capital. paris, thank you so much, chris, for coming on. i better 1st. just start asking by asking you won't be willed?

food security committee actually is some people might not know, it was set up all the way back in 974. let me clarify was the secretary or 3 and a half years up until the end of october. and the committee indeed was set up in 74 in a context of a global crisis that was back in the days when there was a massive famine in east pakistan. now bangladesh and the global community built a multilateral study, such as the cfs would be away for countries to come together to address resolve crises. it done its job, them helping countries and experts to play their part in addressing changing food security issues. it was reformed in 2009 at the height of another crisis. and so it's a very different institution than it was when it started bringing

a expert scientific animal into the process. bringing all 3 of the rome, new and agencies together in one, in one platform and enjoying the un members with the experts all around the u. n. system, the civil society, private sector at the bretton woods institutions like the world bank. and everyone is part of that conversation to address policy convergence with embassy for us. i mean, i don't want to be to mean obviously chris, but even before the week basket of europe, you grain facing what it is right now. we have 828000000 hungry this christmas. i'm not blaming at all on you. obviously it's all the stakeholders that have about to play. why is the world food security committee fail failing? what? why, why is it such a failure? we know there's enough food to feed the earth, what 3 dimes over, and it's not a supply problem, but a say,

want wire all these people facing starvation this christmas. well, it's exactly a big problem and those numbers which you cited which come from the sophie 2022 report actually for to the previous year. so i would be surprised that those numbers are even higher. f a o just came out with a report in early december saying 45 countries on urgent need of food assistance. 33 of them in africa, all really with the issues of climate. a coven, 19 soaring inflation. and of course, the major driver at the conflicts which are going on around the world, including the one you cited between russia, ukraine. i mean that 4000000 children involved in britain, but i mean that, that can't be the problem. cova and all these other things can live. i mean, you, course it is part of it or dropping food is, is extremely expensive. you know, the wi fi, well i know from other interviews you've had you're,

you're very aware of what the situation is and who the players are. and this is extremely complex. i, it's issue. first of all, no one can even agree on exactly how to solve world hunger. we have targets in sd g to am, but it's extremely complex. and the conflicts in particular, which does seem to be expanding, am, are really tipping the balance the invasion of ukraine in february. this past year, of course, was the invasion of a country that is one of the major bread baskets of the world for weed, for grains, for sunflower oil. one question i have to ask is, the greatest successful food security provision? perhaps in all world history was performed by the chinese communist party 800000000 out of poverty, of course, and feeding 800000000 in a space of a couple of decades. 75 percent of global poverty reduction in 40 years. do you

notice that there's something different about the way the chinese communist party operate all the body in cuba? i suppose, which is sanctioned, don't involve private stakeholders or private actors. did. did your time in the committee on world food security take on board that the most successful food security operation can be made by copying? perhaps the chinese communist party. why it's actually my experience before the see about when i was a diplomat living in china. i got 1st and to witness the way the chinese work. and if you go back to the late seventy's after the cultural revolution, helping introduce market reforms, which actually input private sector and the profit motive into play, which is what help drive china's rather remarkable experience in bringing that many people out of poverty. so yes, china is a member of the cfs, china's active in the f, a o as you know, and, and the director general,

the of those is chinese. and so their experience does bear on, on, on everything from research and science to know the way the global system in trade works. don't, don't shelter by clearly because you get the for, i mean, you are unesco as well. you saw how that the money dried up on, on that one. obviously the kind of private sector increased involvement in the market reforms in china. very different to the private skate stakeholders today in global food security and western nations. though, what i mean, what is the power of we were interviewing dr. london, a shiva, the pioneer of the, one of the pioneers of anti globalization on the show in a week or says, time on this show. and she's been saying it is these private corporate stakeholders that a big international institutions mix up with very different,

arguably to the small stakeholders the china was favoring in their agricultural revolution. it's their fault. that's why there's all these hundreds of millions that are starving this christmas. it's not ukraine. it's not her cove. it, it's actually something much more systemic if we have enough food in the world. and it's the drive for profit from say, fertilizer companies that's really causing the starvation. i suspect you want to talk to a nobel prize winning economist who could work out the macroeconomics on this. one point is china does engage in the global trade market. it is heavily dependent on imports of certain products were made production, it exports a lot. so to, to differentiate china between the, the rest of the trading system. i would look at the issues at coven, didn't unveil,

i think in the global supply of food is quite, is quite revealing. particularly the concentration in the hands of a few small, small number of companies trading companies in the ways that agriculture trading is done shipping the insurance, everything involved moving for fertilizer and key in core to agriculture. hugely state controlled, right. i mean, the, the okay, perhaps we're talking too much on china. i mean, eritrea say pick eritrea. 100 percent food security sanctioned by the united states and european governments take cuba sanctioned by the united states. why is it these countries that are outside the economic system? do so well on food security, take eritrea. i mean, you must deposit your desk at the committee for world food security. no error trays, not one that i've dealt with very often. they weren't active, it's it. but i do know, read as much as i can on, on the region. it is

a particularly vulnerable country and particularly with what we're seeing as a result of climate change. and i know you're interested in sanctions, issues and the politics around that. and the fact of the matter is a much larger number of people are suffering and impacted by climate change. we're not addressing it in the way it needs to be addressed either in the you in framework convention, the ops us one held not far from eritrea. and jermel shay, we have to seriously, the continued use of fossil fuels at the base of our agricultural systems is leaving, it's very vulnerable. you've seen the horn of africa, droughts that are better putting millions at risk at the locus infestation. all the changes that are manifested in this type of, i mean, i know that, i mean the britain has just announced a massive trade deal with the united states to sub importing ellen, g guess refract areas of louisiana and new knows where else in the united states.

as fracking, and i think we can both agree that's probably not good for climate change. that's kind of over, isn't it? i mean, that kind of, i mean, talk, i mean there's lots of talk about it at conferences. i again, one of the biggest images, joiner is saying civil about math, solar and so on and all these different breakthroughs, western nations, they, they don't seem to be that bull that about fossil fuels anymore off to what happens in ukraine. do they? yeah, i think there is a recognition, i think more has to be done, but i think there are very clear commitments that have been made. the u. s. is back in the person and there is a framework in mind to get to that 0 from the energy sector and cor, it's the largest contribution to greenhouse gases. i think there has to be realization and the investment to go with that fossil fuel consumption is not the way forward.

we have to stop in recovery from proven you see this huge burst in, in energy consumption, living in coal, another fossil fuels. we have to, we have to incentivize renewables in a much stronger way. everyone agrees with all of that. and of course, the critics on both sides a, there vested interests in the green movement, who are not doing what they're saying and so forth. but on global food security, your central role as a secretary of the, the committee with the f l. a u. n committee i, i think many of you as may want to know, and i, i, us, agnes calabasas at this d. u. n. special envoy. she acknowledged that there were problems with neo liberal models of the way the systems worked when it came to food. have you personally experienced lobbying of any kind when you were at the un? no. wilson food security committee. of course it's in the u. n. as

a political body, so lobbying goes on everywhere, including up to see a fast passage. a committee that is hosted at the audio, but it's a multi lateral body with a $133.00 members. it's again, it's, it's decisions are made by the members, but it's relies on the technical expertise of f, e o e n, and the u. s. p to lobby is going on because every country, every region has its views, are on their own domestic interest, their own private lobbying, private, loving, well, those private sector is part of the effect. so of course there is a private sector representation just like there is a civil society group. chris agra. i'll stop you there. more from the former secretary view and committee on world food security after this break. ah

long went out. so think wrong when i just don't want you to see how this becomes the advocate and engagement equals the trail went so many find themselves will to part we just to look for common ground. ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the full, the secretary view and committee on well food security, chris haggard on, on private lobbying. how does it work at these big, you know, international level discussions? does someone put a can round up on the table and say, is this fear god?

because these are pretty powerful companies that you're dealing with and their lobbyists. right. let me emphasize was dealing with because i'm no longer secretary, but the and again, the weight of us is that it is a intent that brings in every one. rome of course, has a center for food issues within the u. n. so you have an active participation of science, this of diplomats, the private sector, civil society groups, everybody who has a stake in this game. now we went through, we develop policy recommendations on the topic of innovation. and so we wound up changing the name to innovative approaches, agro ecological and other innovative approaches. because there's an ongoing debate about whether agro ecology is the way forward or more industrial types of food production. and so that's the type of political debate that's going on all the time,

including us. what's your view agent? my view is that i think there's plenty of room for agro ecological approaches. using technology using science and research and using it or data. data systems are notoriously weak, particularly in the countries that are most food insecure. so if you can link data to policy making, so people actually are making decisions based on the ax. yes, this is a very good, so i think there is much room for a move towards regenerative agriculture. there's plenty of data out there. are companies that are collecting data into satellite data, others, but which companies was there's the google's and the various folks who are using satellite data for everything from traffic to try to tracking your food purchases. but it's data that will help countries stick to a strategy to use agriculture to get out of poverty. this is the

way we see data systems and the importance of data being tied to policies government's policy makers are actually making informed decision. you mention google there, i mean, some would say, especially those who are lobbying in a very different direction. you don't believe that these 2 2nd segments of food security can co exist, would say no forget google. forget bare and cor, teva, i understand is the company that came through from, from dow, forget these companies, small holding farms, produce ball food. in fact, i gave you eritrea as an example earlier that, that's what you do. you have small holdings and you don't industrialize farming, which some say creates health risks. the prevalence of allergies, all sorts of different problems associated with mechanized industrial production, and that in fact, the fact that he has they can produce enough food anyway. we don't need this

industrialization. actually, what you're saying is symptomatic of a desire for profit and shareholder value on wall street. far more than feeding these hundreds of millions that will starve in the next few days. your words not mine, but i understand you're trying to to find the story here it's, it's a transition there, there's ye, they have to a co exist. there are different models. and there are different ways of doing business, whether c, united states or cambodia or some other smaller developing countries doesn't have the same access to resources that the global market, sir, the market in the trading system is not going to go away and it has to be respected or the most efficient allocation of resources. question is, how's the trading system improved? and this is what i'd like to see the w t o doing a better job in addressing these in quality, say,

the lack of resilience in the trading system. the codes are unveiled and addressed the issue of subsidies. how do you mean the w t. o, in terms of protecting intellectual property rights for seeds or reducing protectionism in the european union? what's going on with you? is that terrible record, say the globe many members of the global yeah, no, i understand the criticisms, i understand where a can do better. and the fact of the matter is the, the forum where the rules are made and applied and disputes are resolved. what i think is important, one of the most important things for you to do is make sure that ex work restrictions are avoided at all cost. certainly those that are not within the rules and you know, there were upwards of 39 export restrictions. as late as august of this

year. i think the number has gone down since, but those are what most people, as described as the root cause of the crisis back in 2009 when countries slot at work restrictions on rice. so following rules, strengthen those rules, putting teeth in the system when those rules are broken, i think is something that the retail can, can look very squarely and i think they are. i know the dumbly dio poses or appears to it has to play very diplomatic, a side step dance on this opposed it. a lot of us sanctions, i don't know how many countries the united states sanctions, right now. incalculable always be china and other countries. when it comes to industry, i'm sure that breaks w t o rules. but are you as sanctions actually a force for good in that they make individual economies that i mentioned earlier, sustainable and better able to create food security in those countries.

the bolivian president was on was on this show. he intimated that obviously as i said, cuba, people in nicaragua and you name it, every country in the world that has been hugely sanctioned by the united states. and nato nations usually creates food security by being outside of this global mechanism and trade mechanism, which makes them over reliance on a few corporations. or, i mean this is obviously an extremely complex topic. there are rules and when the rules are followed, there has to be some system in place to, to make people follow the rule. but look, if there is, i think, a mis characterization of what sanctions, how they're applied at how they're enforced economic sanctions, obviously, or a tool in economic state craft. but typically food and medicines are exempt from sanctions regime. same or russia, ukraine. it's the same for cuba and i know there's

a lot of complexity beyond that general statement, but typically food is not on the list of sectional i, i don't, i'm not, i mean, in iraq or the sanctions against that. i was saying that preceded the war and how may listen to you. how many was they'll you know that you know, venezuela bad blame sanctions for impoverishing and one estimate on 21000 dead is it from, from sanctions. i know you speak with a great deal of authority because it was you were a diplomat. previously. i last a last year. not a clue. you know that close to ger widen. but you did work as an engine there and you were his assistant. tell me, tell me what you expect from joe biden on world of food security given that the world is facing such a, such a terrible threat. this christmas why i did work for then senator biden, on my 1st job in washington before going off to grad school. i have

a lot of respect for him. his wife, dr. joe biden. and the staff that i worked with who were absolutely top notch, i know he has no really his head, not in the right place when it comes to dealing with, with the world's problems. especially the conflicts that are, that are going on around the world that are causing so much intruded security. so, and again, you know, the, the 1st response was addressing covered the loss of life, massive loss of life in the united states and trying to help deliver vaccines around the world. and then domestic issues about how to address food insecurity in u. s. i know you're aware of that out of numbers, which are fairly surprising, upsetting in the u. s. number of people who are on either economic assistance or lining up it soup kitchen. so these are things at that it home for america, sir,

as well as, as those around the world, one segment of the pro democrat camp who believe that he's completely out of touch and funded by what credit card companies in delaware, i finance and he doesn't care i, i don't remember you, everybody has critics. i don't see. i don't see that the criticism is valid, i think by the administration is doing its best to not only take care of american farmers and changed the dynamic. if you look at a political map of who votes for room in the u. s, you look at the read states, those are ones were who does grown. i think mr. biden is agriculture. secretary, i understand that you have to have to win the hearts and minds of farmers to, to continue to be elect, how do conference, israel and we given culprit teen is on given, i know there's a conference today where you're speaking with the head of the w h o, how do we're or, or yesterday i how, how do they help food security?

i mean, you know, it would be unkind, wouldn't it is a, if only the poor could eat conferences, but you do enjoy them because them, the kinds of people that go to these conferences is more often than not, not the poorest people or other you're right in that regard, but i think is conferences, do bring people together who can bring different perspectives, can experience it. having the director general w h old speak on a conference panel looking at food security makes it very clear that those 2 issues, food security and nutrition are inseparable. i the number one killer in the world is diet related disease. we're talking about heart failure diabetes, cancer's people dying of her early death because of the foods they eat,

alter process foods, sugar fats, salts. do you eat organic food? i do. yup. i make a point of it. you buy pesticide, free gym of free food. whenever i can, bo well, i'm willing to pay a little extra to avoid the risk of the what ifs. i would much rather eat locally grown a healthy organic food in c o the, you know, the, the big companies the go to the conferences that we just talked about. i may say that that they're safe. i mean i, i get a bill gates, i know the miller melinda gates circle, racial fund, a lot of these things. gates and i've never been shy about my passion for fertilizer. it's a magical innovation that is responsible for saving millions of life from hunger, lifting millions at a point. what are you doing? eating food that isn't being given chemical fertilizers?

listen, mother nature does it, right. it's the best way to, to grow and grow food. my opinion, yes, we've been able to use scientific advances to increase the yield of certain plants, rice, plant weed, plants. you name it, it's impressive, but has it resolves the hunger issue? the answer is no. i think if we get back to the basics of but letting mother nature do what she does best, which is balancing out s a guy and the disease is with are human bodies in human and biome. i think we will all be better off. now population is, is running very high, population increases and this is something that is not talked about very often. and, but what's better seen people star, we're feeding them with. oh, that is produced with chemical fertilizers. and how to say, i'd rather see people eating g m o industrial produce food than starved,

but you know, we have for ignite issues to, to resolve on the score. well, the companies all say that it's completely safe to eat at their fertilizer foods. all the big good chemical companies and some people say that it's a, it's not a, it's not a choice app at all is as enough food bit. chris, i good, thank you. and that's if my child will be back next week with a nother brand new episode, but until then you can still keep in touch viola social media if it's not centered in your country, but you can always had to watch hello going on. the grantee on ronald of come to watch new and old absence of going underground surveys. ah, ah, ah.

a money a money and it gives me a my mom allen. my name is in with

a with in many whistle blowing cases, the highest stakes are for national security with ssl blowing. it takes a great deal of fortitude take on the power and the authority of the f, b i the cia, the n a say. and in some cases, the white house itself, oftentimes the whistleblower pays with his career and in some cases, even with his freedom. today we're going to look at the case of steven friend an f . b. i. agent who recently blew the whistle on an increasingly politicized f. e. i . for his trouble, the 12 year f. b i, veteran and member of the special weapons and tactics team was stripped of his gun and badge escorted out of the bill.