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ah. hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . russia in the west survived the cold war because both recognized and practice, the concept of indivisibility of security. one country should not attempt to attain security at the expense of another country. this is exactly what the west has done against russia to the point of claiming russia has no right to any security guarantees. ah, cross sucking security guarantees. i'm joined by my guess, the boy mileage in washington. he is a blogger, and calmness in quebec. we have dmitri last caught us, he is a lawyer and freelance journalist and in worth and we crossed anthony webber. he is an independent political commentator. all right, gentlemen,

crossed huck rules and effect, that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciated a boy, let me go to you 1st in the imperial city. um, this idea of indivisibility of, of security has been quite lost ever since the end of the cold war, because it was the hallmark of the helsinki process. and nato is just thrown that into the wind, and i would say that speed in that is to be the result is a conflict. do we have in ukraine though? no one in the west seems to want to use that logic, but it was the west and the soviet union came up with that logic that kept the peace in europe during the cold war. so what are they missing? go ahead and the butcher. well this you are quite correct that this was entered, the call ended up preventing the cold war from turning hot. unfortunately, it was red con, from history in the ninety's, amid this whole end of history, triumphalism that, that became the ideology to sure in washington. and the helsinki process basically

became a conveyor belt for the us to browbeat other countries into doing it, speeding and this doctor and it wasn't quite so clearly formulated. but they basically said that the only sovereign truly sovereign country in the world is the us. and everybody else has to do what they're told, or else. and we saw what or else men to 999. when nato proceeded to attack you, then you was flavio without any sort of breaking you went charter, its own charter to health. think you charter all imaginable charters. it was privy to and it, that was just basically ok. we did it because we wanted to and what are you going to do about it? and you know, 23 years later we are where we are. so it's one of those obviously none of us would have happened had the west abided by the treaties that it signed by that has really never been the case, has it, it will to me try. i mean, it was

a few days ago that the german chancellor came out and said that, you know, there has to be new security guarantees per europe after the conflict ends in ukraine, which russia, obviously in his mind, will lose which he is obviously wrong. but it's really kind of befuddled me, is that the does determine chancello that those low security guarantees were in place before nato expanded. i mean it's, there is this sense of, of forgetting history. it's really extraordinary how the german chancellor could say something like that. your thoughts, dimitri? well, we have an overwhelming tendency in the west to have a shorter non existent historical memory. and we tend to choose the date of the starting point for history. that is most convenient to the narrative of the u. s. hedge among the united states. government and the fact of the matter is that it has been eminently well established by the historical record. in fact, it's beyond reasonable dispute. not only that europe signed onto the know the

notion of indivisible security and recognized that the insecurity of one state affects all others within the european region. something were seen today and very vivid and painful in a very, very painful way. but it's also absolutely clear from a historical perspective that the leaders of the soviet union and russia received assurances that there would be no expansion eastward of nato. and there were repeated warnings from luminaries across the, the west, including george kennan, including henry kissinger, including even william burns, the current director of the ca, that across the political spectrum in russia, there was antipathy, entirely understandable, and typically towards nato expansion. that there had been assurances given that the breaking of those assurances would have potentially catastrophic consequences for europe and the west relationships with russia. and we simply conveniently forgot all of that because the ice days decided that its status is the world sole

superpower was at risk. and that it needed to take measures to weaken russia and then beyond that to weaken what it seems to regard as its prime competitor, china. well, you, anthony, almost exactly. one year ago, russia sent to nato and to washington to nodes ultimatums, whatever you want to call them about, you know, it's, you know, basically they're up against the wall and you have to listen to it because the security architecture is collapsed or the, is that be something that could be possibly entertained. now i me because because we have mixed voices in europe, you know, there's no relationship, no future with russia than macaroni or any got criticized for it. so there has to be security guarantees. your thoughts, anthony? well, the problem is, sir, there's a huge amount of distrust which has been caused by what's happened because has been rightly said from the 90 ninety's when the cobra ended. and they were these assurances, but there wouldn't be an expansion of nato,

even though they weren't in written format. ah, but the problem is since the end of the cold pool, ah, they chose early, massively expanded it, especially since the town of the century. i'll say it's been a complete our sense of distrust there, because why should the need russia or trust and a p. p gland, nato, a bit. i yourself to look at the situation office, see any country needs to have some security and the united states warms id security where may have the cuban missile. ready crisis and you have to look at what are the former president gorbachev said, and because he was the architects with agreements between the old soviet union and the navy. and he said a, you may not humiliates a country and it spec prayer where to be no consequences. and of course,

there are consequences. and mismatch they pima really heights in russia, which is what's been happening now. but it's as though these agreements we had, ah, the helsinki, the, the, the structures we have in place to our bridges tension. i have been totally ignored, as, as you've said. and the voice is for peace are shut down. and a one of the objects is of gratian, nato is, see supposed to be, to protect freedom. but there's a freedom in the, in the west at the moment about a free and open debate. it's all this whole issue. and it's a really impressive night, i countryside conflicts with russia, ukraine, and it really isn't. so we all have to look at our interest in the countries points,

again, there's no strategic tool, other interest in being involved in this conflicts or the boys. i mean, if there are going to be relations and you're going to, it's going to have to be mutual. that's not a message. it's coming out of european capitals. it's, it's our way or the highway. i mean, it's really extraordinary that they don't reflect upon how we got here. they don't want to do that and it has been pointed out, they choose their dates. ok, right, well that the thing about europe and capital is, is that i see a lot of rhetoric coming out of there, but not a lot of agency. essentially, micron and sholtes and others talk a big game. but they do what they're told at the end of the day. now, they're being told that by, you know, i choose to believe that it's not joe biden, because that would be even more humiliating than the alternative. but the problem with the collective west is twofold. one, they can't under that they wouldn't recognize their own interests if they,

you know, literally fell in their lap. that's one and 2, they're not agreement capable. there is a very clumsy but wonderful rush in the colleges that literally translates it's not agreement capable. these are to people you cannot make deals with because, and this is something that collective wes, it's forgotten and i'll put it in terms of pop culture terms that everybody can understand. if, if your method of dealing with people is to say i'm altering the deal, pray i do not alter it further. you are a villain in this story, not a good guy. so, you know, this is, this is a bit of self reflection that's needed to be done in the west, and i don't see it an effect anywhere. i think microns passing thought about giving security guarantees to russia, which is of about a year too late. is the closest it's come to it and he's been viciously attacked over that. and yet, you know, he's been centuries at home at band any sort of criticism as, as you know, russian propaganda saying what sholtes in germany and they entertain these

fantasies that you know, once russia will lose things, we'll go back to, to the way they were before well, i've got a good news for them. first of all, russia not going to lose. and secondly, nothing is ever going to be like, as it was before, no matter what the outcome of this current conflict, which is that's not how these things work in dmitri in fresh is not granted security guarantees, it will create its own. that's what the west doesn't understand. dmitri. again, i want to come back to the point we meet at the outset about the historical amnesia from which we seem to suffer in the west. we forget that the soviet union, according to the 1993 study of the russian academy of sciences, suffered some estimated 27000000 losses in the 1st world war, the 2nd one. and that included approximately $9000000.00 military deaths. of course, the, these horrific casualties were inflicted upon the soviet union in the 2nd world war

by an aggressive nazi regime emanating from germany. and i think, well, dmitri dmitri, if that's the point of collective west minus the u. k, at the time, it's really interesting. ok, because you had the entire european land mass. ok. joining nazi germany. keep going . i'm sorry to interrupt. well, obviously this is a historical trauma of tremendous proportions. i mean these losses that the soviet union sustained were vastly in excess of those of the axis powers. the united kingdom, the united states and canada combined. and yet we seem not to understand that this historical trauma affects the perspective on a of the russian people and the russian government with respect to security, particularly under western border. and in lesson until we come to grips without reality, we are going to be at risk of interminable conflict, military conflict with potentially disastrous consequences because of the risk of

nuclear, a nuclear engine. dmitri, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break gentleman, and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on security guarantees. stay with our team. ah ah ah, need to come to russian state total narrative type as i'm phone and the nurse landscape div asking him then i'll send them up for a group in the 55 with speedy one else with will ban in the european union. the kremlin. ca,

yep. machine. the state on to russia for date and c. r t spoke neck, given our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube with me. ah, louis center god is throwing in the old hon national force about oscar in wisconsin. the last dance have to deal with dealers. we sprung from dr hours from them to know when to do it. in bt dufrane, you could keep the way in the politicians kills on the edge. here on the bro, leisha the or was to live that i'm done with this in

a little bolcom. you in the crucial chest middle school. and also i was leaning swiftly. bone is not as good feed used to a lot of what you could eat with the leukemia. well, they knew they were with up shoot any video pics that will be good to go with this . when you go see, show the missed piece, they need to the metal south along and you can give us his new opportunity as opposed to local miss nancy. this material, but in the stone tossed, even the so great unit should update those adobe locally. and it doesn't help with eagle is of them the me abuse that me. she, those patrons ah, yes, please. and you'll have to numerous madsen to handle moodle is emotional, specially to renew with this. it is up to when you took the little filtering piece . mm. i

just welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter a bell to remind you we're discussing security guarantees. is go back to anthony where thing that you know, it's interesting that in the mainstream it's her bowden, to talk about what we're talking about on this program here. and one of the things it's not talked about is that a european security architecture would not only excluded russia, but was excluded russian was against russia. and this is something that if we're going to have peace in europe, has to be rectified. and given the voices that we're hearing in europe and in obviously, washington in london, we have all very long way to go. maybe a generational issue. go ahead anthony. yes, that's 33,

but we got to recognize what the real agenda is here. and i told him he got on to the american color tissue, our sunday plot for a well, when she said the ukraine wool is all about regime change in russia, and it's not really about anything else. and it's about our godless vested interest . that late or too big about change so that they get that he comes to russia ah, plays the game and the in the guy. but the sway. i know we need to look at what sub present pacing said in to thousands about our euro. because he said, russia is passive european culture, and i cannot imagine my own country in isolation from europe and what we often call lee civilized worlds. so it is hard for me to visualize nathan as an enemy. so i don't think russia ever wanted a comb breaks or nature as an enemy,

but we go hitting powers who have been trying to bring about this tongue facts between certain countries in the west and russia. i'm sorry, is interesting, observed me not that long ago that the united kingdom members of the role of family was visiting russia and improving relations between the cad roster. and now we have a situation where the former prime minister of the united kingdom brought us johnson is actively war mongering. encouraging the sunday of mo weapons and the mo are age to the bottomless packs of president said, i'm skis are ukraine. i and the u. k. and some other countries had go blood on their hands because a lot of the weapons which had been supplied to the crying that that ended up being used to bomb the civilians as well as all li,

military or casualties. as well as he rightly said. we've got a problem, but the, the windstream major in the west of the u. k as well. he's not on debate. so the public does not actually know the truth that was going on, but a sort of bits with a sad because nate, i was supposed to have an objective of securing peace, promising co operation and guarding freedom a night. i was doing none of this in the crying and talk to europe as a whole. well in the by say, i mean south and burn makes it very existential. a, i know we must win. russia must be defeated. well, what happens or in the reverse happens, the boy ship, i mean, how, how does nato survive? this, which i'm rubbing my hands with glee because it's a failed alliance. it, when it's being proven. will nato's mission,

according to its 1st secretary general, who was the british peer? unlike suttonberg, who is an absolute nbc said that the mission of the alliance was to keep the americans in the russians out in the germans down. and it has been doing that. and it has been beneficially doing that ever since. the problem is that you cannot have european security without russia. you cannot have, you know, europe with, with germany suppressed. and obviously, american tutelage is turning out to be not really a blessing of liberty that everybody thought it would be. nato is a fail alliance. if, if there is any justice in the world, it needs to be dissolved. it has manifestly served the opposite purpose of its official one. again, lord, his mace definition worked out much better in that respect. but again, not to the interest of the people involved. i would argue that stop nerves in his

infinite stupidity and i'm sorry, i don't have a respect for this man. he basically admitted that nato is a party to the conflict. he's actually insisting. right? so, you know, if you, if you're not involved in the war, how can you win or lose? and if you are involved in more than welcome to the consequences, one big issue is that what we've discussed before is that it's not just you storage, eliminate amnesia. it is, it is a very deliberate destruction of historical memory to the point where most people in the west have this vision of world war 2, as seen on the silver screen and spielberg movies where soviet union doesn't even exist. right. and unfortunately, i've, i've been saying for the past few years before this calamity happened upon us that, you know, give them another half a generation and they will have read conduct. the soviet union is actually responsible for the war and even the holocaust because that's where things were headed. well, no, no voice. i don't know if you've noticed. i'm

a big fan of the world, that war theories that came up 1974. i think it was, it's been completely erased from youtube. i think this one episode, and it wiped it because of what exactly what you said, because it would, it would make, well, well, keep the memory of the, the war, authentic memory. dmitri, i mean what, where nato is drawn a line in the sand. i mean, how does it survive when it loses in ukraine? it won't, it's great. ok. i find it in thinkable that nato will survive in any meeting before . perhaps some run of nato, confined to a core of states and western europe might survive this disaster from a reputational perspective. but nato's in this, in this sort of existential crisis because it stated credibility on total victory and ukraine, which from a practical perspective is achievable. and you know, quite apart from that nato's credibility, in any rational world would have taken a massive hit well before the commencement of the special military operation in

february. because for example, nato committed, you know, extraordinary trillions of dollars of resources, apparently an excess of a trillion dollars to the war and f dentist in an over 20 year period was unable to taliban, who were armed with soviet era, small arms. nato. in the name of human rights and the doctrine of the responsibility protect dropped doctrine which is abused. shamelessly effectively destroyed libya, which was at that point in time. up until that point of time, the most prosperous state in africa, needle bombarded serbia and even to this very day, that problem hasn't been resolved, it's festering, and there could be war in kosovo. so when you look across the spectrum of nato intervention, what you see is one failed, stayed in one disaster after another. and on top of that, you have nato demanding clamoring stilton burge and others, that every nato members spend 2 percent of its g d, p. on the military, whether there is a legitimate need for them to do so. and whether,

even though there are pressing domestic issues, that every member of nato has to confront, including poverty and an environmental and be environmental crisis currently confront, you know, anthony, and one of the things is very curious in this propaganda rich environment. that this is in a liter wore it because if you look at polling, if you dig down, most people are interested in domestic issues here. but this isn't an elite agenda . yes, it definitely is. are we just had comments about the record of nitro, which should be one of failure? in fact, of the one instance where they could have succeeded to get his son of a totally great job, but we tried $26.00, but in afghans shaban rides, city cases, standards for women and so on. i should be because they did a deal with the taliban. no, never lost

a major battle with the tyler so that he conveniently left afghanistan to get enrolled in the crime lab. we have to process with a wider picture and it's all very sad. other people in the event saw controlling what is happening. ah, but we have to do our best to are in all respects of countries feel involved in the crime and should encourage our governments to exit from those policies. and oh, but that would be appeased. men, munich, gay. yeah, that's all you hear. it's all you hear, and then you know, you know, all of you, the people that say that don't even know what it means. ok, it's a slogan. it's simply a slogan. it's pretty good. and so you got about the deal with the taliban. good for peace. so it's all done. well, yeah, well, i've got, you know, there,

but i'm glad that afghanistan was brought up here because the ukraine is the new griffith. ok. because afghanistan was a 20 year griff, now this is a new grift. yeah. well, it is the problem, the problem with with this is that obvious, it's much bigger griff for the weapons manufacturers. except that they hoped that, you know, there was banks would actually get the job done in 3 to 6 months. they're the ones who are hoping for short, victoria, it's war. and it hasn't been that the now they're facing the cold hard reality that their production rates cannot possibly compete with water and warfare. and also again, a stand was a typical western expedition war. something that happened far away that didn't really impact anybody at home, aside from those poor souls who came back with p t s. d. this is having immediate consequences is not just for, not just for europe, which is obviously directly impacted with, with the energy collapse. but even in the us, because the, you know, the bike and government tried blaming the gas prices on, on the conflict. so here's, for the 1st time in, god knows how many years,

certainly the west living memory, a conflict that's actually hitting home. however, indirectly, and the population doesn't like it. and guess what the population doesn't get. it doesn't get a vote. it doesn't matter how hard they're put upon because nobody cares what they think. it's let them eat cake all the way down. and it's the absolutely destroying any sort of delusion that might be persisting in the west about some sort of, you know, government talk to people in democracy. let me jump in here, dmitri, i'll glass 30 seconds. go to you. how is the west going to accept defeat and ukraine? well, my great fear is that it won't. okay. seemed yeah, yeah. that speed is full speed ahead. they don't know how to de escalate. right now . we're talking about sending patriot missiles to ukraine. every single reaction to a russian intervention in this theater of war is one of escalation. and i think at some point we, we as a people are gonna have to take matters into our own hands,

get out into the streets and demand that our governments finally engage in a process of negotiation. and yet, yeah, a little bit of democracy wouldn't be a bad thing right now gentlemen, you know, exactly. yeah. i, yeah. well, you know that, that's the, one of the biggest casualties is, is democracy in listening to what people have to say. gentlemen, fascinating discussion. as all the time we have many thanks and i guess in washington, quebec, and wording and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember cross paths with ah, what are you crazy? yes. or took a love by los for some of my friends,

but i was broken. i wasn't able to save anyone. i did nothing that i met wilson. 2030 god. what really in my way to make me start talking to willy. when you for me to have him i'm happy that trying to find is really little so you can, i don't think my mother had become my new friend. the one was love gonna die or because he is going to stay alive. it was they next to me if i'm not crazy enough,

i'm not gonna make it a with the u. s. ordered a crack down on the protesters and through that supporting to the outfit president or who has now been sentenced to at least 18 months in jail. piper's new u. s. government. the africa leader summit wraps up in washington with america's top diplomat, bringing up the west colonial path to criticize russia. the un overwhelmingly adopt a russian brockton resolution to fight to force a cation of nazi. is this fight you parade and multiple western countries voting against the both.