lavelle, russian, the west survive the cold war because both recognized and practice, the concept of indivisibility of security. one country should not attempt to attain security at the expense of another country. this is exactly what the west is done against russia to the point of claiming russia has no right to any security guarantees. the cross talking security guarantees, i'm joined by my guess, the boyish mileage in washington. he is a blogger, and column is in quebec. we have dmitri last caught us, he is a lawyer and freelance journalist and unworthy. we cross to anthony webber. he is an independent political commentator. alright gentlemen, cross top roles and in fact, that means you can jump in anytime you want. i always appreciated a boy should let me go to you 1st in the imperial city. this idea of indivisibility of security has been quite last, ever since the end of the cold war, because it was the hallmark of the helsinki process. and they tow,

it's just thrown that into the wind and i would say that speed and that is the reason the result is the conflict. we have been ukraine, though. no one in the west seems to want to use that logic, but it was the west and the soviet union that came up with that logic that kept the peace in europe during the cold war. so what are they missing? go ahead and the butcher. well this, do you are quite correct that this was entered, the call ended up preventing the cold war from turning hot. unfortunately, it was red con, from history in the ninety's, amid this whole end of history, triumphalism that, that became the ideology to sure. and washington. and the helsinki process basically became a conveyor belt for the us to browbeat other countries into doing it, speeding and this doctor and it wasn't quite so clearly formulated. but they basically said that the only sovereign truly sovereign country in the war is the us

. and everybody else has to do what they're told, or else. and we saw what or else men to 999. when nato proceeded to attack you, then you was flavio without any sort of, you know, break into you went charter, its own charter to helping you charter all imaginable charters. it was privy to and it did that was just basically ok. we did it because we wanted to and what are you going to do about it? and you know, 23 years later we are, we are, we are. so with each one of those, obviously none of us would have happened had the west abided by the treaties that had signed, but that has really never been the case. has it to me treat? i mean, it was a few days ago that the german chancellor came out and said that, you know, there has to be new security guarantees for europe after the conflict ends in ukraine, which russia, obviously in his mind, will lose which he is obviously wrong. but it's really kind of befuddled me. is

that the, does the german chancellor that those low security guarantees were in place before nato expanded? i mean it's, there is this sense of, of forgetting history. it's really extraordinary how the german chancellor could say something like that. your thoughts, dimitri? well, we have an overwhelming tendency in the west to have a shorter non existent historical memory. and we tend to choose the date of the starting point for history. that is most convenient to the narrative of the u. s. hedge among the united states. government and the fact of the matter is that it has been eminently well established by the historical record. in fact, it's beyond reasonable dispute. not only that europe signed onto the know the notion of indivisible security and recognized that the insecurity of one state affects all others within the european region. something were seen today in very vivid and painful in a very vivid, painful way. but it's also absolutely clear from

a historical perspective that the leaders of the soviet union and russia received assurances that there would be no expansion eastward of nato. and there were repeated warnings from luminaries across the, the west, including george kennan, including henry kissinger, including even william burns, the current director of the ca, that across the political spectrum in russia, there was antipathy, entirely understandable, and typically towards nato expansion. that there had been assurances given that the breaking of those assurances would have potentially catastrophic consequences for europe and west relationships with russia. and we simply conveniently forgot all of that. because the ice days decided that its status is the world sole superpower was at risk. and that it needed to take measures to weaken russia and then beyond that to weaken what it seems to regard as its prime competitor, china. well, you, anthony, almost. exactly. one year ago, russia sent to nato in to washington to notes ultimatums,

whatever you want to call them about, you know, it's, you know, basically they're up against the wall and you have to listen to it because the security architecture is collapse or the is that be something that could be possibly entertained. now i me because because we have mixed voices in europe, you know, there's no relationship, no future with russia than macaroni or any got criticized for it. said there has to be security guarantees. your thoughts, anthony? well, the problem is, sir, there's a huge amount of distrust which has been caused by what's happened because has been rightly side from the 90 ninety's when the cobra ended. and they were these assurances, but there wouldn't be an expansion of nice or even though they weren't in written format, ah, but the problem is since the end of the cold pool, ah, they chose early, massively expanded it, especially since the end of the century. i'll say it's been

a complete our sense of distrust there, because why should the need russia, our trust and a p. p gland, nato, a bit. i yourself to look at the situation office, see any country needs to have some security. and the united states wanted security where me had the cuban missile. ready crisis and you have to look at what are the former president gorbachev said, and because he was the architects with our agreements between the old soviet union and have a nice that. and he said a, you may not humiliates a country and it's specter where to be no consequences. and of course, there are consequences and mis baxley pima really heights in russia, which is what's been happening now. but it's as though these agreements we had,

ah, the helsinki, the, the, the structures we have in place to reduce tension. i have been totally ignored, as, as he said. and the voice is for peace, are shut down. and a one of the objectives of gratian nato is see supposed to be to protect freedom. but there's lame freedom in the, in the west at the moment. it's about a free and open debate each or this whole issue. and this is really the interest di countryside, conflicts with russia, ukraine, and it really isn't. so we all have to look at our interest in the countries points, again, there's no strategic tool. other interest in being involved in this phone place where the boys should. i mean, if there are going to be relations and you're going to, it's going to have to be mutual. that's not a message. it's coming out of european capitals. it's,

it's our way or the highway. i mean, it's really extraordinary. they don't reflect upon how we got here. they don't want to do that. and it has been pointed out, they choose their dates. ok, right, well that the thing about a european capital is, is that i see a lot of rhetoric coming out of there, but not a lot of agency, essentially, micron and sholtes and others talk a big game. but they do what they're told at the end of the day. now, they're being told that by, you know, i choose to believe that it's not joe biden, because that would be even more humiliating than the alternative. but the problem with the collective west is twofold. one, they can't under that they wouldn't recognize their own interests if they, you know, literally fell in their lap. that's one and 2, they're not agreement capable. there is a very clumsy but wonderful rush in the colleges of them that literally translates it's not agreement capable. these are to people you cannot make deals with because,

and this is something that collective wes, it's forgotten and i'll put it in terms of pop culture terms that everybody could understand. if, if your method of dealing with people is to say i'm altering the deal, pray i do not alter it further. you are a villain in this story, not a good guy. so, you know, this is, this is a bit of self reflection that needed to be done in the west, and i don't see it an effect anywhere. i think microns passing thought about giving security guarantees to russia, which is of about a year too late. is the closest it's come to it and he's been viciously attacked over that. and yet, you know, he's been centuries at home at band any sort of criticism as, as you know, russian propaganda saying what sholtes in germany and they entertain these fantasies that you know, once russia will lose things, we'll go back to, to the way they were before well, i've got a, i've good news for them. first of all, russia not going to lose. and secondly, nothing is ever going to be like, as it was before, no matter what the outcome of this current conflict,

which is that's not how these things work. yeah, and dmitri in fresh is not granted security guarantees, it will create its own. that's what the west doesn't understand. dmitri, again, i want to come back to the point we meet at the outset about the historical amnesia from which we seem to suffer in the last. we forget that the soviet union, according to the 1993 study of the russian academy of sciences, suffered some estimated 27000000 losses in the 1st world war the 2nd world. and that included approximately $9000000.00 military deaths. of course. the, these horrific casualties were inflicted upon the soviet union in the 2nd world war by an aggressive nazi regime emanating from germany. and i think, well, dmitri dmitri, if that's the point of collective west minus the u. k, at the time, it's really interesting. ok, because you had the entire european land mass. ok. joining nazi germany. keep going

. i'm sorry to interrupt. well, obviously this is a historical trauma of tremendous proportions. i mean these losses that the soviet union sustained were vastly in excess of those of the axis powers. the united kingdom, the united states and canada combined. and yet we seem not to understand that this historical trauma affects the perspective on a of the russian people and the russian government with respect to security, particularly under western border. and in lesson until we come to grips without reality, we are going to be at risk of interminable conflict, military conflict with potentially disastrous consequences because of the risk of nuclear. a nuclear hi jimmy 3, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break gentleman and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on security guarantees. stay with our team.

what are you crazy? oh, yes. or took a lot. i lost most of my friends. but i was broken. i wasn't able to save anyone. i did nothing that i met wilson, 2030 god. but really in my way to make me start talking to willy waiting for me in the heaven. i'm happy that i me find is really little john. you can go to sleep. my mother,

he become my new friend. the one was love gonna die or i was, he is. i would stay alive. it was they next to me. if i'm not crazy enough, i'm not gonna make it the business and you will clean the pre daily shoes. you made it comes, graham. we just got in touch of the ceiling in for angela such for him with different suit. employ. chelsea you get thrown with them probably, and you're still there with that actually if you're here are sick if history as

you brought in the studies, just a bunch of stuff coming off on. ok, which which and it was just posted just a moment because i knew a divorce or useful or cold running don't know which i know for the don't know is actually just giving me a minute. you're going to go to these just opinions. come on the welcome back to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter of l. to remind you we're discussing security guarantees. is go back to anthony and where thing are, you know, it's interesting that in the mainstream it's for bowden to talk about what we're

talking about on this program here. and one of the things it's not talked about is that european security architecture, which i don't, we excluded russia, but was excluded russian was against russia. and this is something that if we're going to have peace in europe, has to be rectified. and given the voices that we are hearing in europe, and in obviously, washington in london, we have a very long way to go. maybe a generational issue. go ahead, anthony. yes, that's very free. berkeley got to recognize what the real agenda is here. and i told him he got on the, i'm american co or tissue or sunday clock for a well, when she said the ukraine war is all about regime change in russia. and it's not really about anything else. and it's about our guidelines vested interest late or too big about changes so that they get the comfort bratia ah, plays the game and the in the guy. but the sway,

i know we need to look at what sub present pacing said in to thousands about our euro. because he said russia is passive european culture. and i cannot imagine my own country in isolation from europe and what we often call lee civilized worlds. so it is hard for me to visualize nathan as an enemy. so i don't think russia ever wanted a comb breaks or nature as an enemy, but we go hidden powers who have been trying to bring about this tongue facts between certain countries in the west and russia. i'm sorry, is interesting, observed me, not that long ago that the united kingdom members of the role of family was visiting russia and improving relations between the u. k. rasa. and now we have a situation where the former prime minister of the united kingdom brought us

johnson is actively war mongering, encouraging the suddenly of more weapons and the bull aids to the bottomless pit. to have president said, i'm skis are ukraine. i and the u. k. and certain other countries had go blood on their hands because a lot of the weapons which had been supplied to the ukraine that ended up being used to bomb the civilians, as well as all li casualties as well. but as you write, the said, we've got a problem the, the wednesday major in the rest of the year as well. he's not on debate. so the public does know actually, you know, the truth was this guy on sort of bits or the site because now you're supposed to have objects of securing peace for managing co operation

and guarding freedom night. i was doing none of the crime and europe as a whole. well the boy, i mean stealth and birth makes it very existential. we must win. russia must be defeated. well, what happens or in the reverse happens there by ship. how, how does nato survive? this which i'm rubbing my hands with glee because it's a failed alliance. it's being proven. well nato's mission and according to its 1st secretary general, who was a british peer, unlike suttonberg, who is an absolute nbc said that the mission of the alliance was to keep the americans in the russians out in the germans down. and it has been doing that. and it has been beneficial doing that ever since. the problem is that you cannot have european security without russia. you cannot have, you know, europe with, with germany suppressed. and obviously,

american tutelage is turning out to be not really a blessing of liberty that everybody thought it would be. nato is a fail alliance. if, if there is any justice in the world, it needs to be dissolved. it has manifestly served the opposite purpose of its official one. again, lord, his mace definition worked out much better in that respect. but again, not to the interest of the people involved. i would argue that don verbs in his infinite stupidity and i'm sorry, i don't have a respect for this man. he basically admitted that nato was a party to the conflict. he's actually insisting. right? so, you know, if you, if you're not involved in the war, how can you win or lose? and if you are involved in the war than welcome to the consequences, the one big issue is that what we've discussed before is that it's not just historically em nisha. it is, it is a very deliberate destruction of historical memory to the point where most people

in the west have this vision of world war 2, as seen on the silver screen and spielberg, movies were to soviet union doesn't even exist. right. and unfortunately, i've, i've been saying for the past few years before this calamity happened upon us that, you know, give him another half a generation and they will have read conduct. the soviet union is actually responsible for the war and even the holocaust because that's where things were headed. well, no, boy, i don't know if you've noticed them. i'm a big fan of the world war theories that came out in 1974. i think it was, it's been completely erased from youtube. i think this one episode, and if wiped it because of what exactly what you said, because it would, it would make, well, well, keep the memory of the war. authentic memory. dmitri, i mean what, where nato is drawn a line in the sand. i mean, how does it survive when it loses in ukraine? it won't,

it's great. ok. i find it in thinkable that nato will survive in any meaningful form. perhaps some rump of nato, confined to a core of states and western europe, might survive this disaster from a reputational perspective. but nato's in this, in this sort of existential crisis because it stated credibility on total victory and ukraine, which from a practical perspective is achievable. and you know, quite apart from that, nato's credibility, in any rational world would have taken a massive hit well before the commencement of the special military operation in february. because, for example, nato committed, you know, extraordinary trillions of dollars of resources. apparently, the nexus of a trillion dollars to the war and f dentist in an over 20 year period was unable to the taliban, who were armed with soviet era small arms. nato in the name of human rights and the doctrine of the responsibility protect doctrine which it's abuse. shamelessly effectively destroyed libya, which was at that point in time up until that point of time,

the most prosperous state in africa, needle bombarded serbia. and even to this very day, that problem hasn't been resolved, it's festering and there could be war in kosovo. so when you look across the spectrum of nato intervention, what you see is one failed, stayed in one disaster after another. and on top of that, you have nato demanding clamoring stilton burge and others, that every natal members spend 2 percent of its g d. p on the military, whether there is a legitimate need for them to do so. and whether, even though there are pressing domestic issues, that every member of nato has to confront, including poverty and an environmental and be environmental crisis currently confront, you know, anthony, and one of the things is very curious in this propaganda rich environment, that this is an elite wore it because if you look at polling, if you dig down, most people are interested in domestic issues here. but this isn't an elite agenda . yes, it definitely is

a registered conference about the record of nights which has been one of failure. in fact, the one instance where they could have succeeded. i was son, i totally didn't grade job it, which i 26 when afghans shaban ride city caisson standards for women and on a survey because they did a deal with the taliban. no, never lost a major battle with the tyler barry, so that he conveniently left afghanistan to get enrolled in the crime lab. we have also sort of worried our picture here, and it's all very sad. other people in the event saw controlling what is happening, but we have to do our best to our in all respects of countries feel

involved in the crime should encourage our governments to exit from those policies . and oh, but that would be appeasement in munich. yeah. yeah. that's all you hear, it's all you hear. and you know, you know, all of you, the people that say that don't even know what it means. ok, it's a slogan. it's simply a slogan. it's printed out and say that's about the deal with the taliban. good, very are piece. so is old. okay. well, yeah, well, i've got, you know, there bunch, i'm glad that afghanistan was brought up here because the ukraine is the new gripped. ok because afghanistan was a 20 year griff. now this is a new grift. it is the, the problem, the problem with this is that obviously it's much bigger drift for the weapons manufacturers. except that they hoped that, you know, there was banks would actually get the job done in 3 to 6 months. they're the ones who are hoping for short, victorious war and it hasn't been that the now they're facing the cold hard reality that their production rates cannot possibly compete with water in warfare. and also

of good standing was a typical western expedition war. something that happened far away that didn't really impact anybody at home, aside from those poor souls who came back with p t s. d. this is having immediate consequences not just for, not just for europe, which is obviously directly impacted with, with the energy collapse. but even in the us, because, you know, the government tried planing the gas prices on, on the conflict. so here's for the 1st time in god knows how many years, certainly the wes, living memory, a conflict that's actually hitting home. however indirectly. and the population doesn't like it. and guess what the population doesn't get. it doesn't get a vote. it doesn't matter how hard they're they're put upon because nobody cares what they think. it's let them eat cake all the way down. and it's too absolutely destroying any sort of delusion that might be persisting in the west about some

sort of, you know, government talk to people in democracy. let me jump in here. demetrius the last 30 seconds. go to you. how is the west going to accept defeat and ukraine? well, my great fear is that it won't. okay. seemed yeah, yeah, like that speed is full speed ahead. they don't know how to deescalate. right now. we're talking about sending patriot missiles to ukraine. every single reaction to a russian intervention in this theater of war is one of escalation. and i think at some point we, we as a people are gonna have to take matters into our own hands, get out into the streets and demand that our governments finally engage in a process of negotiation. and yet, yeah, a little bit of democracy wouldn't be a bad thing right now gentlemen, you know, exactly. yeah. i, yeah. well, you know that that's the one of the biggest casualties is, is democracy and listening to what people have to say. gentlemen, fascinating discussion. as all the time we have many thanks them i guess in washington, quebec, and wording. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at archy,

see you next time. remember, cross ah, [000:00:00;00] a new live muscles. if you look on the initial, you want to pull up not to get a diaz can use to put body when you do the origin. but you also done

a what i see the skinny bus is the little gear motivation says diesel tutorial. dumbbell sub small, a bulk issued by for the mother. when you annual g d. p per capita is about $4000.00 euros. last does that. we've got a mobile with social 4 and a mobile number to reach a level of thought there would have thought of unemployment is off the charts, moldova territorial integrity and sovereignty. we respect

a country which enjoys financial support from the u. s. n. b, you has constantly roth by political and corruption scandals. but all that didn't stop mo, google obtaining you candidate status in 2022. ah . is the aggression today? i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing up in the future. we'll probably list a couple of billing your senior mostly more in the we're, we're, we're banding all imports of russian oil and gas news. i know they plenty of with little we're pretty good regarding joe, by imposing these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so

there's a boomerang with with terror attack on russia, humanitarian office in the central african republic leave the head of the mission seriously injured us to pledge is to expand that con much training program for ukrainian soldiers with thousands of keys, triple ready, being prepared in nato countries with make whether ukrainian military prison obviously is u. k. military training, didn't do him any good who see that there? it's a funny thing like for 2 days they taught us how to hold the weapon. did you use