ah, ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, russian. the west survived the cold war because both recognized and practice the concept of indivisibility of security. one country should not attempt to attain security at the expense of another country. this is exactly what the west has done against russia to the point of claiming russia has no right to any security guarantees. ah

cross sucking security guarantees. i'm joined by my guess, the boise mileage in washington. he is a blogger, and column is in quebec. we have dmitri last caught us. he is a lawyer and freelance journalist and in worth and we crossed anthony webber. he is an independent political commentator. all right, gentlemen, cross huck rules and effect, that means you can jump in any time you want and i always appreciated a boy, let me go to you 1st than the imperial city. um, this idea of into visibility of, of security has been quite lost ever since the end of the cold war, because it was the hallmark of the helsinki process. and nato is just thrown that into the wind. and i would say that speed, the and that is to be the result is a conflict. we have been ukraine though. no one in the west seems to want to use that logic, but it was the west and the soviet union that came up with that logic. they kept the peace in europe during the cold war. so what are they missing? go ahead in the bushes. well this you are quite correct that this was entered,

the call ended up preventing the cold war from turning hot. unfortunately, it was red con, from history and ninety's amid this whole end of history, triumphalism that, that became the ideology as you are in washington. and a healthy prostate basically became a conveyor belt for the us to browbeat other countries into doing its bidding. and this doctrine that wasn't quite so clearly formulated. but they basically said that the only sovereign truly sovereign country in the world is us. and everybody else has to do what they're told, or else. and we saw what or else meant in 1999. when nato proceeded to attack you, then you was flavio without any sort of breaking you went charter, its own charter to health. think you charter all imaginable charters it was privy to and it did that was just basically ok. we did it because we wanted to and what

are you going to do about it? and, you know, 23 years later we are, we are, we are as so it's one of those. obviously none of us would have happened had the west abided by the treaties that it's signed by that has really never been the case has it, it to me treat me. it was a few days ago that the german chancellor came out and said that, you know, there has to be new security guarantees for europe after the conflict ends in ukraine, which russia, obviously in his mind, will lose which he is obviously wrong. but it's really kind of befuddled me and is that the, does the german chancello that those low security guarantees were in place before nato expanded? i mean it's, there's this sense of, of forgetting history. it's really extraordinary how the german chancellor could say something like that. your thoughts, dimitri, well, we have an overwhelming tendency in the west to have

a shorter non existent historical memory. and we tend to choose the date of the starting point for history that is most convenient to the narrative of the u. s. hedge monday, nighted states government. and the fact of the matter is that it has been eminently well established by the historical record. in fact, that beyond a reasonable dispute, not only that europe signed onto the, know the notion of indivisible security and recognized that the insecurity of one state affects all others within the european region. something we're seeing today and very vivid and painful in a very vivid, painful way. but it's also absolutely clear from a historical perspective that the leaders of the soviet union and russia received assurances that there would be no expansion eastward of nato. and there were repeated warnings from luminaries across the, the west, including george kennan, including henry kissinger, including even william burns, the current director of the ca, that across the political spectrum in russia,

there was at antipathy, entirely understandable, and typically towards nato expansion. that there had been assurances given that the breaking of those assurances would have potentially catastrophic consequences for europe and the west relationships with russia. and we simply conveniently forgot all of that. because the ice days decided that its status as the world sole superpower was at risk, and that it needed to take measures to weaken russia and then beyond that to weaken what it seems to regard as its prime competitor, china. well, you, anthony, almost exactly one year ago, russia sent to nato and to washington to notes ultimatums, whatever you want to call them about, you know, it's, you know, basically they're up against the wall and you have to listen to it because the security architecture is collapse or that is that be something that could be possibly entertained now, maybe because we have mixed voices in europe. you know, there's no relationship. no future with russia. then crawl near,

got criticized for it. said there has to be security guarantees. your thoughts, anthony? well, the problem is, sir, there's a huge amounts of distrust are which has been caused by what's happened because has been rightly said from the non c nineties when the cobra ended. and they were these assurances, but there wouldn't be an expansion of nice or even though they weren't in written format, ah, but the problem is since the end of the cold pool, ah, they chose early, massively expanded it, especially since the end of the century. i'll say it's been a complete our sense of distrust there, because why should the need russia, our trust and a p p. glyn nato, a. but i yourself to look at the situation office, see any country needs to have some security and the united states forms in security where may have the cuban missile. ready crisis and you have to look at

what are the former president gorbachev said, and because he was the architects with our agreements between the old soviet union and the laser. and he said a, you may not humiliate a country and expect prayer to be no consequences of the cause. there are consequences. good miss bachelor pamela, we've really heights in russia, which is what's been happening now, but it's as though these agreements we had, ah, the helsinki, the, this, the structures we have in place to reduce tension. i have been totally ignored, as, as he said. and the voice is for peace, are shut down and a, one of the objectives of nation nato is see supposed to be to protect freedom. but

there's a freedom in the, in the west at the moment about our free and open debate each or this whole issue. and this is really impressive, di countryside conflicts with russia, ukraine, and it really isn't. so we all have to look at our interest in the countries points, again, there's no strategic tool, other interest in being involved in this conflicts or the boys. i mean, if there are going to be relations and you're going to, it's going to have to be mutual. that's not a message. it's coming out of european capitals. it's, it's our way or the highway. i mean, it's really extraordinary. they don't reflect upon how we got here. they don't want to do that. and it has been pointed out, they choose their dates. ok, right, well that the thing about european capitals is that i see a lot of rhetoric coming out of there, but not a lot of agency. essentially, micron and sholtes and others talk a big game. but they do what they're told at the end of the day. now,

they're being told that by, you know, i choose to believe that it's not joe biden, because that would be even more humiliating than the alternative. but the problem with the collective west is 2 fold. one they can't under they wouldn't recognize their own interests if they, you know, literally fell in their lap. that's one and 2, they're not agreement capable. there is a very clumsy but wonderful, rushing the ologist that literally translates as not agreement capable. these are to people you cannot make deals with because, and this is something that collective wes, it's forgotten and i'll put it in terms of the pop culture terms that everybody can understand. if, if your method of dealing with people is to say i'm altering the deal, pray i do not alter it further. you are a villain in this story, not a good guy. so, you know, this is, this is a bit of self reflection that's needed to be done in the west,

and i don't see it an effect anywhere. i think microns passing thought about giving security guarantees to russia, which is of about a year too late. is the closest it's come to it and he's been viciously attacked over that. and yet, you know, he's been santori is at home at band any sort of criticism as, as you know, russian propaganda saying what sholtes in germany and they entertain these fantasies that you know, once russia will lose things, will go back to the way they were before well, i've got a, i've got news for them. first of all, russia not going to lose. and secondly, nothing is ever going to be like, as it was before, no matter what the outcome of this current conflict, which is that's not how these things work. yeah. and dmitri impression is not granted security guarantees, it will create its own. that's what the west doesn't understand. dmitri again, i want to come back to the point we meet at the outset about the historical amnesia from which we seem to suffer in the last. we forget that the soviet union, according to the 1993 study of the russian academy of sciences,

suffered some estimated 27000000 losses in the 1st world war, the 2nd one. and that included approximately $9000000.00 military deaths. of course, the, these horrific casualties were inflicted upon the soviet union in the 2nd world war by an aggressive nazi regime emanating from germany. and i think, well, dmitri dmitri, if you decide to point out collective west minus the u. k, at the time, it's really interesting. ok, because you had the entire european land mass. ok. joining nazi germany. keep going . i'm sorry to interrupt it. obviously this is a historical trauma of tremendous proportions. i mean, these losses that the soviet union sustained were vastly in excess of those of the axis powers, the united kingdom, the united states and canada combined. and yet,

we seem not to understand that this historical trauma affects the perspective on of the russian people and the russian government with respect to security, particularly on the western border and lesson until we come to grips without reality. we are going to be at risk of interminable conflict, military conflict with potentially disastrous consequences because of the risk of nuclear. a nuclear engine dimitry. i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break gentleman and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on security guarantees. stay with our team. ah ah ah ah. well, oh oh oh

oh, i ah it ah, because she spent with buffalo new that was a forced of national leader, which was obviously due to a controller like from when to do i know. but who do a medical

with national anthem, a creeping up is that the cop there from wanted a with me for a forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence and the point obviously is to great trust,

rather than fear i would like to take on various job with artificial intelligence. real summoning with a robot must protect its own existence with a welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you discussing security guarantees ah is go back to anthony and where things are, you know, it's interesting that in the mainstream it's her bowden to talk about what we're talking about on this program here. and one of the things it's not talked about is that a european security architecture would not only excluded russia, but was excluded russian was against russia. and this is something that if we're

going to have peace in europe passed to be rectified and given the voices that we're hearing in europe and in obviously, washington in london, we have a very long way to go. maybe a generational issue. go ahead anthony. yes, that's very true, but we got to recognize what the real agenda is here. and i told he, god, that the american poets issue are some type of for a well, when she said the ukraine war is all about regime change in russia, and it's already about us. anything else? and it's about our godless vested interest at play. a big about change so that they get the comfy bratia ah, plays the game, and the head macabre. sway. i know we need to look at what sub president, pacing said in to 1000 about our euro, because he said russia is passive european culture. and i cannot imagine

my, an country in isolation from europe and what we often call lee civilized. ready worlds, so it is hard for me to visualize, nay terrorism enemy. so i don't think a russia ever wanted a comb brakes or nature as an enemy, bob regal. hinton powers who have been trying to bring about this conflicts between certain countries in the west and russia. i'm sorry, is interesting of any, not that long ago that the united kingdom members of the role of family was visiting russia and improving relations between the u. k. roster, and now we have a situation where the former prime minister of the united kingdom brought us johnson is actively war mongering. encouraging the suddenly of mo weapons and the bull, our aides, to the bottomless pets of president said and skis. are you crying?

i and the u. k. and certain other countries had go blood on their hands because a lot of the weapons which should been supplied to the ukraine event, but ended up being to bomb the civilians. as well as all li, military or casualties. as well as he rightly said, we've got a problem, but the, the windstream major in the west of the u. k as well. he's not on debate. so the public doesn't actually know the trade that was, is going on. but a little bit of a was sad because nate, i was supposed to have an objective of securing peace, promising co operation, and guarding freedom and night. i was doing none of those in the crying. and dr. europe as a whole lot. and the by say, i mean south and burn,

makes it very existential. a, i know we must win. russia must be defeated. well, what happens or in the reverse happens, the boy ship, i mean, how, how does nato survive? this which i'm rubbing my hands with glee because it's a failed alliance. it when it's being proven. well nato's mission, according to its 1st secretary general, who was a british peer, unlike suttonberg, who is an absolute nbc said that the mission of the alliance was to keep the americans in the russians out in the germans down. and it has been doing that. and it has been beneficial doing that ever since. the problem is that you cannot have european security without russia. you cannot have, you know, europe with, with germany suppressed. and obviously, american tutelage is turning out to be not really a blessing of liberty that everybody thought it would be. nato is a fail alliance. if, if there is any justice in the world, it needs to be dissolved. yeah,

it has manifestly served the opposite purpose of its official one. again, lord, his mace definition worked out much better in that respect. but again, not to the interest of the people involved. i would argue that, you know, goldenberg's in his infinite stupidity and i'm sorry, i don't have any respect for this man. he basically admitted that nato was a party to the conflict. he's actually insisting. right? so, you know, if you, if you're not involved in the war, how can you win or lose? and if you are involved in more than welcome to the consequences, one big issue is that what we've discussed before is that it's not just historically many amnesia. it is, it is a very deliberate destruction of historical memory to the point where most people in the west have this vision of world war 2, as seen on the silver screen and spielberg movies where the soviet union doesn't even exist. right? and unfortunately, i've,

i've been saying for the past few years before this calamity happened upon us that, you know, give them another half a generation and they will have read conduct. the soviet union is actually responsible for the war and even the holocaust because that's where things were headed. well, no, boy, i don't know if you've noticed. i'm a big fan of the world, that war theories that came out 1974. i think it was, it's been completely erased from youtube. i think this one episode, and if wiped it because of what exactly what you said, because it would, it would make, well, well, keep the memory of the war. authentic memory. dmitri, i mean what, where nato is drawn a line in the sand. i mean, how does it survive when it loses in ukraine? it won't, it's great. ok. i find it in thinkable that nato will survive in any meeting before and perhaps some rump of nato. consigned to a core of states and western europe might survive this disaster from a reputation perspective. but we need those in this,

in this sort of existential crisis because it staked its credibility on total victory in ukraine. which from a practical perspective is achievable. and you know, quite apart from that nato's credibility, in any rational world would have taken a massive hit well before the commencement of the special military operation in february. because for example, nato committed, you know, extraordinary trillions of dollars of resources, apparently, an excess of a trillion dollars to the war. and the dentist in an over 20 year period was unable to taliban, who were armed with soviet era, small arms, nato. in the name of human rights and the doctrine of the responsibility protect doctrine which is abused. shamelessly effectively destroyed libya, which was at that point in time. up until that point of time, the most prosperous state in africa, nato bombarded serbia and even to this very day, that problem hasn't been resolved, it's festering, and there could be war in kosovo. so when you look across the spectrum of nato

intervention, what you see is one failed state in one disaster after another. and on top of that, you have nato demanding clamoring salt and berg and others that every nato members spend 2 percent of its g d, p. on the military, whether there is a legitimate need for them to do so. and whether, even though there are pressing domestic issues, that every member of nato has to confront, including poverty and an environmental and be environmental crisis currently confront, you know, anthony, and one of the things is very curious in this propaganda rich environment, that this is an elite war because if you look at polling, if you dig down, most people are interested in domestic issues here, but this isn't an elite agenda. yes, it definitely is a registered conference about the record of nights which should be one of failure. in fact, the one instance where they could have succeeded to get his son. i totally didn't

grade gibbon which i had 26 with afghans. shaban ride syndication standards for women and so on. i said they because they did a deal with the taliban. no, never lost a major battle with the tyler, so that he conveniently laughed after this time to get enrolled in the crime lab we, we have to process with a wider picture here and it's all very sad. other people in the event saw controlling what is happening, but we have c r t o s t r in all respects, have come tracy, all involved in the crime should encourage our governments to exit from those policies. and oh, but that would be appeasement, munich. gay, yeah, that's all you hear. it's all you hear. and then, you know, you know, all of you,

the people that say that don't even know what it means. ok, it's a slogan. it's simply a slogan. it really doesn't say that's about the deal with the taliban. good, very are piece. so is old. um. well yeah, well, i've got, you know, there, but i'm glad that afghanistan was brought up here because the ukraine is the new gripped. ok because afghanistan was a 20 year griff, now this is a new grift. yeah, well it is the, the problem, the problem with this is that obviously it's much bigger grid for the weapons manufacturers. except that they hoped that, you know, there will be, banks would actually get the job done in 3 to 6 months. they're the ones who are hoping for short, victorious war and it hasn't been that the now they're facing the cold hard reality that their production rates cannot possibly compete with water in warfare. and also of good standing was a typical western expedition war. something that happened far away that didn't really impact anybody at home, aside from those poor souls who came back with p t s. d. this is having immediate

consequences not just for, not just for europe, which is obviously directly impacted with the, with the energy collapse. but even in the us, because, you know, dividing government tried blaming the gas prices on, on the conflict. so here's for the 1st time in god knows how many here, certainly the wes, living memory, a conflict that's actually hitting home. however indirectly. and the population doesn't like it. and guess what the population doesn't get. it doesn't get a vote. it doesn't matter how hard they're put upon because nobody cares what they think. it's let them eat cake all the way down. and it's the absolutely destroying any sort of delusion that might be persisting in the west about some sort of, you know, government talk to people in democracy. let me jump in here. demetrius glass, 30 seconds, go to you. how is the west going to accept defeat and ukraine? well, my great fear is that it won't. ok, i seem to. yeah, yeah,

that speed is full speed ahead. they don't know how to deescalate. right now we're talking about sending patriot missiles to ukraine. every single reaction to a russian intervention in this theater of war is one of escalation. and i think at some point we, we as a people are gonna have to take matters into our own hands, get out into the street and demand that our governments finally engage in the process of negotiation. and yet, yeah, a little bit of democracy wouldn't be a bad thing right now gentlemen, you know, exactly. yeah. i, yeah. well, you know that, that's the one of the biggest casualties is, is democracy and, and listening to what people have to say. gentlemen, fascinating discussion as all the time we have many thanks them i guess in washington, quebec and worthy and thanks to our viewers for watching us here. darky. see you next time. remember, cross platforms. oh,

today i'm authorizing the additional strong sanction foreign companies. quitting russia. a client atm console, blantan banks disconnected from the international payment system. functional puppy juvenile donna and euro exchange rates. follow up on our sellable up article. go more so, so carbon would know what the committee met. that evoke is the bill that is the current. can you say, i don't know what you're seeing with volume and russian business overcome this song? see yeah, i bought enough to handle huge, tremendously. just me. don't pros voice, bullshit. national productive. not just 0 dash a mere bull. what i see, i put themselves, but when you come, when you with, before you go to you, got any of your mind or did not, but actually so praise a cost to get

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shallows. ah, ah ah, breaking news in the latest act of censorship against media that you targets our teens, parent company with another round of ordering a phrase of the company's assets in europe. the united nations has condemned a pair of tags on russia's humanitarian offices in the central african republic, where the head of the mission was seriously wounded. but the russian and indian leaders discussed bilateral ties over the phone following media. rumors that the india backed out of a meeting with vladimir.