[000:00:00;00] ah, i'm african or tansy and welcome to going underground in the week of an unprecedented alliance between the communist party of china and the kingdom of saudi arabia and the gulf cooperation council. the one the senior u. s. officials urgently met with chinese counterparts this week for so called in depth talks over tie one after the state visit of chinese president. she didn't ping to saudi arabia's capital. re add this after opec plus including the u. e and the saudi arabians refuse jo biden's requests for more oil production to save nature nations from the ukraine proxy war. joining me for today's episode to talk about whether there will be lasting, tragic repercussions for the u. s. a. in the new geopolitical landscape is renowned

expert on china's foreign relations press, one ging, he's the director of the institute of the u. s. and pacific studies at the shanghai international studies university. and he joins me from berlin, where he is richard, one read seca fellow at the robert bush academy. thank you so much, professor for coming on. so it must have been important if even a host of the world cup pazzar officials that to a tend to leave the world cup. what does it signify because there's been relatively little press attention in nature, nation media, where is the global south as it is, method, headline all, and use bulletins. oh, very significant is the 1st time as far as i can remember that, that chinese talk mostly in a country and nice. symbolic also has a lot of, it actually shows that both sides,

china and other countries as a strong common ground interest, go into the school, which is a lot going on your credit. and also your compensation to united states. and china . cost is a great on 70, about future bar this summer in china, aerobics countries, all the cock counsel has great significance to science really show really want to join hands and to bring some pop goods to both sides. i thought this was great, of course the one i was interested in that could be there in berlin, but we're not in an echo chamber. i know that professor, but as you know, i think tanks and g o z a arguably in echo chambers we've had from the atlantic council bill saying that one shouldn't redo much significance in this. and the other saying this is incredibly significant. the national security council

spokesperson in washington said john kirby said we are mindful of the influence the china is trying to grow around the world. and of course this in the context of the fact that us agencies of already labeled china, the number one enemy of the united states. do you think there's a battle in washington that to be in one by those who see joiner is an enemy rather than as a partner to cooperate with for a more prosperous wealth? them are some people of course are you want on the d. c and the united states same china as a. ready number one, a, me or rival, but now official line of washington, d. c, that china is a most, you know, serious challenger to the u. s. and the u. s. lead in the national order and danny's our facial line. if that's a challenge or of course, whatever china us either see, a kind of lost the united states because people in washington, d, c, c, the u. s. china competition has a 0 sum game,

which i certainly is there on the product that is very common, reductive. but of course, the united states of america as people in washington d. c, were trying to water down the significance of the summit. but the fact the, the fact i seen is, like i said, just now, it has a great significance both in terms of symbolic and the subsets awful or china as they're going power and number 2, power and also number one inch, a trading light on us need a kind of reliable supply of energy which in the square like off countries produced . on the other hand, the ghost hunters also need china as a major positives, establish a new strategic banners in the region because often a disintegration our soviet union, the us israel alliance there, i saw over william in advantage. i think that's the very reason why there's no stability ever since. of course, even china, joan,

in given china's capacity or capability and also china's piece for development. strategizing would be a very positive element in the region and also where, how in mind, in the long ro stabilize the situation. there economically speaking, of course channels one by one road initiative. another effort will also kind of, we're right into our hands of the countries over there who try to restructure the economy. so that is economy would not. so you get a not in the industry, but become more diversified and the more more balance in the future. we know the saudis already have us 2025 or a new study strategy could be val. and of course china. so you know, a corporations, china can be very, very productive and the fruitful in this regard. well, ok. hundreds of millions of people from latin america through africa, through se, asia and russia and china may agree with what you are saying. but you know,

in europe and the united states, quite apart from the fact that the saudis, the u. e. the middle east is routinely condemned over human rights issues. china is a routinely on the bbc and cnn, and other, or television, or broadcasters, as a, as a grocer, human rights violator, of them all, with concentration camps. i'm not sure quite how they argue the draws about the fact that the saudi arabia is the guardian of the holy places of his slum. whilst scheiner is supposed to simultaneously be anti muslim. it is the narrative last in europe and the united states. this now he must see part number one personally, that is loose like that. people who accused china and other countries as a humorous violation loose lack of them perfect. we don't have any problems that are 80 mile nations on human rights, which is our slowly luncheon nachos. if you had history all at present, those people who are accused china,

i mean the people are united states or europe. they have a very blunt history of violation of human rights and the colonialism slim re system and so on. so force that unified on the leading people lacking army america, united states, america and australia and stuff like that. thus, history and human prison, we see that a lot of discriminations along wireless, a lot of e quality and the gap between region a poor and so as long columns, they are 2 i that is a 1st problem. second problem, of course you china lack in rehab a lack in law, different countries, english are course, this countries is not covered as a systems not perfect. there are rooms are nice to be improved dollars because thus we're, we're humanly trying to do. we're trying to you, we're also so a kind of been a future last not a problem. the problem is, we're and we had a certain one that is a dollar standard. you cannot, you know,

accused us why you are south says to be perk this thomas standard sandwich sample credit. last why? and i, the space analysis p was last curly credibility and then become more and more, ideally, a minority. of course, this thing is unattractive on the look at it, only 10 percent of colonial population on this side. so to some with our, my point is here. we as a human being one not perfect aim your society. on the a republican system, there are cross nice to me, saw the iron women that will come, you know, a progress bar. it is wrong. yes, absolutely. nonsense. to say that i'm was one person i have the moral high ground young wants me to become them. and always even, even worse, to apply a kind of double standard on those issues that i'm waiting all of us and not in a candle more difficult and worse in situations not this is not, is does now out, you know, the arguments,

intellectual arguments used against what you said usa then g o, they will say what you're engaged in there is, what about is them? and they're saying, well, we're not perfect. we know. i don't know, they've what overthrown 40 countries around the world in 50 years, their governments and their torturing the british or torturing julian, a sergeant london. we know all that, but it's worth somehow in the global south at that is their standard response. but isn't china losing the narrative? partly because it seems to be arguing as if there are rational actors arguing with rational actors as it were. i mean, as, as you know, they've already said that china is the enemy. number one, they send warships into the south china sea and they, we em, let's see. i mean, that there, there are continuous remarks from the united states. and my 6 in london, china is the single greatest priority very my 6 china seeks to distort public

discourse. the api i boss china is the biggest long term threat to our economic and national security. why does china behave so often in europe, in the united states as if they're a, they're going to summer persuade western capitals of their argument. nice linda, this is very good, ironic, and also sometimes even laughable for people who stated a gun. shyness. no more. i mean, of course, our lot of people here in washington and in the west in china is a number was read. and in that regard, china indeed seems to be a number. and, but on the other hand, we say that you, by the persons or by them, they're just a few weeks ago, united nations assembly is that when that is phase, as a nation, that's nasty conflict with china when non kind of in a cold war, which china a se corporation, because 3 sees us by them. institution policy goes shine. of course no more is computation. number 2, of course is confrontations, and i to a number 3 is

a corporation in the areas as they come on in come interests. you wanted to use the c to so we sent for her to forces fighting against each other in washington dc and the in the west. in general. on the one hand, the shyness rise as a threat to them. we are life. and the, on the other hand is a necessity. and of course, i also need to work with china on the kind of challenges or human kinds of facent leg climate, change, leg, non proliferation of nuclear weapons. and now of course of the global financial stability and not also on china to our, to mediate or to, to bring an end with his father. will you grin? so if he's that kind of self contradictory elements or, or phenomenal or say in the west, of course, china always carry on this piece for development strategies. not just trying to just say that, but china is doing that. i've been doing this for 40 years in history. we know that

haitian never before has a major heart keep rising for 40 years without a single gunshot been fired outside china. that's amazing. that's a fact. that's a reality. we know that all the codes, all of the end of the code will last so many crisis, all along the kosovo crisis, georgia crisis. you quin crisis sooner. crisis or all so and so forth. but then also crisis in our street, the crisis in south shannon, the crisis between china and the job. i'm over the army, austin cockle, ireland. one fact, everybody can see all the crisis will never united states in the west get a, you ball will play a major. i mean, one of them and not in the war, not a single extension. all those crisis were china play some major role. no single gunshot has been fired in the past 20 years. professor juan ging, i'll stop you that more from the director, the institute of the u. s. and pacific studies. and the shy international studies

university. after this, greg ah ah

ah ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with professor one jing from china's shanghai international studies university. are they not cultural gunshots being fired all the time, making out that china is evil in any case and her china? i know it had some kind of exercise after nancy pelosi visit to taiwan, which was contrary to actual u. s. foreign policy. in terms of recognition of taiwan as part of gina, gina just thought, well, we'll fire a few guns as a some sort of practice. this wile, $400.00 military, us bases in circle china, just on this trip. um, they're talking about the petro, you $1.00 and pricing oil in not in dollars. the atlanta council, others are trying to say, look, this isn't too big

a deal. other countries have done it, of course, when other countries from the global south want to price oil in currencies other than the dollar, more than often not to their leaders have been assassinated. what do you think of the dangers for china and for saudi arabia, or for talking openly about pricing oil in currencies other than the dollar lead to use that to you to just not watch a cell number was a tower, is your palace a vivid pile on a white china, as long as such, are in a large military operations are exercised. iran, i want the island pie one actually is the largest error, says that the unknown will end it. of course, the 2nd issue is that, well, china is going to use chinese currencies are based on me and to pay for the oil or to as a price that the pay for the oil changed by a, from saudis. the 1st he shot, of course, is a very simple fix united states. and here to what they say,

one china policy in which they recognize the people's republic of china is that only legal representative, legitimate representative of a home china, a united states. never, ever really nice. taiwan, a sovereign state, anxiety, god, the number, sleep person, us government speaker. i was a congress, lucy, we live in taiwan with a military airplane. thus a very obvious violation of farmers all one china policy and also work that encourages killing me in the forces. i am to challenge shyness. armand, he and her integrity, of course, china as a major partners, we're not tolerate us. so that's why 10 launches huge military exercise as detailed there was no one really cared about. not likely, no one really i really want to use force. tactile, indeed already was chinese military forces are really and her, the so called

a 12 miles territory lie. and the closest and my miles and with those 80 american military over there, it's kind of straight to so that tells you exactly latch on the one piece not. ready or a full on the pay for the full or full are you? i sense that if you're on the blame the 1st much to play the united states struggle with a nice little stars try to punish others. for most the use your students use of payment . swift try sunshine against russia if united states trying to use us dollars, which is like local currency grove ok. we're currently at a womanizer for political purpose. of course. not worried sheila message to anyone could use us dollars because they could be a link in the next wrong list. next one, good united states. i use dollars to bonds though. as number one. number cool. we all know that error says whose other name, liquidity, of your, honest, never be recovered. all's yes,

united states just keep really now the dollars with r e can, the limit they call into sees, cannot normally mutation. in other words, you less united states fire use a full advantage of united star united states, thought of us a little currency to, you know, who is roy and other countries, including sony's and others. all of this, of course, a very strong. instantly number one out, the late payment number to, to prevent all $3.00 and be you know, taking advantage by united states, especially when, when, when they jump dollars, i've become so kind of the responses gave europe united states. and i think that he's truly understandable on political started and of course, economic on the v. i mean, as for that military display, wasn't much covered in european capitals anyway, and in the united states. and you think those arguments will be persuasive to antony blinkin. samantha power,

that whole edifice of the military industrial complex are when they have $400.00 basis circling china. they have proxies, arguably, in terms of south korea, japan new zealand, australia around china. they have warships, routinely britain fans, warships routinely around there. meanwhile, those intellectual arguments are being made that all joiner is interested is mutual prosperity and progress. i do not see that there will be people in washington who say no, there has to be a red line here, and they won't be able to buy oil in currencies other than the dollar from saudi arabia. oh, i'm not a, it's is a piggyback. people in washington, d. c to not lives are fine, acquires in saudi a sovereign state. so, so so's china, the decision made by china. so this is the 2 countries decided they want to have

a sunday exchange and nobody really kind of in and awful, or this is in the national community that everybody has a park in. it is not a kind of a wants to listen to the united states on this. yes, he's on edge mom, but her to some extent the subject line war and number one and number 2, i said this is also good for the regional stability in total self economic development and political stability loss goes and, and, and i think that he's not a kind of a, actually that or under my people's interest for the self interest is, will actually be good for everyone and ask for, you know, the rent alliance and so for so forth. first, i think that if you, you one have a red line one prevent others to not across it. you have to define what your red line really is. the problem is that on other issues, united states is a play the game most strategic ambiguity. ready that in the character,

the maximum is of flexibility and minimize the so called commitment fire. if you play the game of strategic and b here he of course, others have also a kind of flexibility to player on. i said that's a fair again. but you don't believe that those are government in the arab world that are doing deals with china or in any danger. sadie arabia the u. e. where i was speaking to you from for trying to add to this multi polar well, because as you know, for decades they have been seen in washington as compliant states with us policy. yes, of course there is a risk and i think the people, you know, rather countries are leaders, they are now very rational and very wise, once again, again, the proven that the dean making a very rational decisions. i think i fully understand maybe better than you and me about what the risks really are. they have to do this because of not

a straight one. and 2 essays that united states not only want to dominate, dominate or monopolize in the areas of security and make long of development. the one also want to establish a haitian model dominance in the energy market. because if you are those on a line that send energy to europe from russia, then they, you have to, you know, depend on the energy from, from great britain, norway and the united states. in other words, await the united states trying to monopolize the supply and demand or other energy market, which of course, is very much a fundamental threat. we talk about threat a fundamental sir and to look at the gulf countries because they are really agree, say lou is good and then use your money to price my products. that's fine. but if

you want to determine a dominant wish buyers, combine our oil a wish wish you know, or which country i can supply in my product. that is a little too much. i think that's a fundamental reason for salaries to, to gave a co schuler to, to buy an image present by the and visit they are, because they wanna make sure they are the one who make a decision. the other, wow, the site, you know, which countries are one, the supply energy, all at $1.00 price, they want to supply. and at one time, at the what speed, at one volumes, there was little number one united states to establish a taking money. this car is a increasing gap between strategic desire of united states, and that is a strategy kimberly the scars that be been bigger as you know. as a result, we see that it was in the united states and this is alice wanted do. cannot matter of all the you know, to want to see actually able to do. and of course,

countries in the iraq countries also see this. this is a weakness that they can take advantage of. and it is exactly this cannot act, peter strategy, desire, and strategy accountability. dan has, has a low mine the study region and the d. r. i sin, when they're trying to strengthen orange expanded their corporation. a relationship with china. it's not a fully non against but also to kind of achieve a come on a political. ready and, and monica stability, which is managed by the 90 states in the past the case does it matter that that analysis is not even understood as a dimension in which to contextualize walden politics in western media? does it even matter that the, the a circle, propaganda or on manipulation,

media speaks of the international community being against china, being against russia, being against that famous meeting between she didn't bring and the vladimir putin in the, in february where china is willing to work with russia to play a leading role in demonstrating the responsibility of major powers is what she jin being said. minimized that kind of news are arguably in nature, nature, media. but what is being emphasized is china is turning against russia and her apparently, joiner is or i don't know, threatening bricks. i supposed to think legation, linda ease, some issues in the erosion, the china, regarding this organize your credit. and i don't now say that the 2 countries stand exact on the same page, but providence can be in the should be saw through communications. and because of 2 congress do have a very solid common ground based on number law. they have

a similar concerns in terms of national security. they also have our economies to economy, so really competency with each other. that's why china is very firmly refused to join the sanctions against russia. and also china refer. ready to condemn so called russia question, colon into you, chris, i will say that i sent china does have song also has uncommon interest in his west and for this with the media tried to demonize shine now same as 3 kind of situations where to distinguish carefully. number one, cause back even lawrence. those people may never be to chime over already. also have this kind of conscious or subconscious, a prejudice against china or chinese people as a nation. in other words, they need to be educate. a 2nd kind of course is those who are very has a very, you know, you will with well, against china. they,

they do not see china doing good there. see china. you mentioned that as a me, as us read that one, china to go down this and so forth. another. ready the take, i'm very far pollution or attitude against can i just can i just ask you finally, of course the pledge to support core interest seen as ukraine anti one made between be made with put in and she gin ping is seen in the west quite differently. especially with the number increased amount of import sation of energy resources from russia, from china. do you think the west will so called west will be successful in cleaving apart this alliance between moscow and bay ging using ukraine as an official for almost a china. the rogers never get into a kind of alliance in terms of west our lives. they use a partnership, strategic partnership. of course it, he's wish was thinking 2 to 2 separate russian to china use in the context of new

chrome war because of the 2 countries, like i said, a do have were a strong come interest. and also we also know is not only china, other countries like south africa, brazil, and ian of course, all countries refused to join the sanctioned guns, russia, and as a matter fact, come, every one of them, only about 40 countries joined the century british roger, which means this minority, so i say that the, your groom bull is a tragedy which fight abriya and were peacefully, of course, by the past. no mean. all those countries had 2 sided with united states in west against washing because there is a reason for this will, i think, from china on the view. the fundamental reason for this was our cold or mentality and the cold war behavior. as long as you stay from dallas bus nakeema, this cannot codle mentality and behavior. we're, we're going to have more trouble on the roster one ging, thank you. and that's it for the show will be back next week with another brand new episode. but until then,

you can still keep in touch by law social media if it's not centered in your country, but you can always head to our channel going on the grantee on rebel dot com to watch you handle that 3rd of going under grants. he very soon, ah ah, ah, i live in the city where the temporary journey is 3 higher already from the neighboring town. you know, right? because the other townships haven't dropped of the trees, but didn't target in the name of development. any of our 1st ship to become of captain like single, or we are all going for our nation. discovering all the breeds we've gone.

so when you distract nature, it takes a revenge of, ah ah, with the latest act of censorship against media the you targets, right. our teens parent company with another round of ordering a freeze of the company's assets in europe. the united nation has condemned a terror attack on russia's humanitarian offices in the central african republic, where the head of michigan was seriously wounded. china slammed japan for hiking up the chinese threat. tokyo adopt