most of the conflict in ukraine and russia. can there be a united europe without russia? ah, discuss these issues any more. i'm joined by my guess martin j and mary cash. he's an award winning journalist and commentator. and here in moscow, we have it in a row, he is the founder of the center of political strategic analysis track pull right gentlemen, cross that rules and effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i would appreciate it when i start out with martin. i think we would all agree that at least formally, europe is united in seeing russia defeated in ukraine. ok when lose, but then you go down a level and well, what does that really mean? and that is really which plaguing the western world and their approach to this con, like because you have president the french president of chrome, you have the german chancellor shows talking about vaguely talking about what has

to happen after the conflict. they're not really not willing to much on the minutia how they get there. now, you know, the baltic republican poland, you have the check republic their top there are basically no talks, no contact, no future. and we, famously, we had a deputy foreign minister in poland saying that russia doesn't even deserve security guarantees. so this is where we stand. i would say this is not a winning strategy for the west. no, it's not a winning strategy. i mean, there's a great deal of somebody about in the dog search for the black cat in the black room on the black chair which doesn't exist. and i think that the problem we've got is that the more we look at the conflict within a dimension of european union more, we see a division division which has been around for quite a long time. you know, we talk about old europe and new europe. you know, that's an argument with classic or by the bronze age. some people might say that us the comparison, we should meet with the unit. but you know, more recently,

i think it was don't room schools who said the interesting the old europe and he was referring to eastern european countries supported the americanization of iraq in 2003 and the pin union of france and germany didn't. i think that's probably for most people a sort of reference point. you know, that's where that's where there's a real division within so called foreign policy. if we can imagine if we, if we will do your opinion and has a foreign policy of some sort. so we've got a real problem with division. most of the eastern european countries are going along with a plan, which they don't really believe in real worries about because they're thinking much more. the longer term rush is a neighbor, you know. and also many of these countries, when they joined the europe in union launched, most of them joined in 2004, a couple of joy later in 2006. i was at brussels and it, it was interesting, but hardly any. got any say whatsoever in terms of how the joint, whereas france,

you know, had a real field day in there, in the french exception of all the rules that it want to do on germany as well as we've been worried about franco. german acts just for very long time, the expansion into eating it was supposed to compromise that franco german actually still hasn't happened. the frank human actions is still the old argue it's even more germanic whenever, you know, but a lot of these eastern european countries are really starting to wake up now about what the real deal is. most of them are atlanta says, most of them a much alliance america and tonight, so know very, very worried about the european union, flexing its muscles and going to play one day having its own army and it's on foreign policy because god knows what would happen in ukraine, if that were to happen. so you know, there's so many of us on the horizon for us to look at so many political conundrums to tackle. but no one has the on. so this idea that these guys in the west know what's going to happen like this, the idea that they have an end game is notices that only have

a present game. i will argue little bit later that russia does have an end game, and that's what it makes it. that's the difference in this conflict. ok, exactly. it's very interesting is if you look at the baltic, republics, you look at poland and i'm really glad that martin brought up the franco german axis is that they're not appealing to paris or to berlin. they're always appealing to washington. and this is say that russia divides europe. no, this is what it's about here. it's the u. s. u s. keeps the franco german alliance on one side, and it pushes the new europe on another, which of course, is inherently to visit that. actually, the point is that the u. s. won't work, but not against russia, against or europe again. so you print economy is to say least germany economy because we are on the, on the brink of, of an economic disaster. if you look at the travel reference from or to united

states, he was supposed to get a drop in the u. s. gas prices. it didn't get it, and the u. s. guys process is 4 times more expensive under the russian one. it was supposed to dissuade joe biden from i, i brings planned to support the u. s. economy. it didn't get it. it was, it just has the right to say that it was, it was all the fault of russia and ready me put in. and if you look out, you were talking about her shots, look at the trouble of shoulds in china is a complete ass. well, it didn't get anything and no, you have german, a comic because we are about to sell. some are chinese cars. and you have your opinion continuing to texas, it all decisions such as the end of the heat engine was the chinese as a 1st place for the production of any 3 cars. so we are on the brink of and you can we just there because a stupid, you know, your pin decision and the, the most that you said the right word,

stupidity ok. finish it. ok. because because i didn't want, i didn't, hadn't thought about bringing up china here. but the chinese don't even take the european seriously. they see what the europeans have done is become supplicants to the us or the chinese are saying, well, we have to talk to washington to deal with the europeans. that's essentially what's happening martin here, and you know, this, this old argument of multilateral and violence. the chinese decided, well, i don't thing to decide, i think for a long time they've been, they've decided that they can work much more successfully talking to you member states on a one to one level. you know, because because again, this lack of critical to, for the, you know, the, is going through a crisis right now. if you look what just happened just the last few days in brussels, we've had a corruption scandal which was really some shock waves. right across the continent, but the people that were in the most of the, the die hard federalists in brussels,

who were worried about the long term stability of the project itself. you know, when i was in brussels, my roger, 23995. from almost the moment i arrived all i heard from people work in european commission on the dinner party circuit. was this worry this. they were present this similar, this metaphor. also the eve being an old man on dutchman riding a bicycle. and the worry is that the old man falls off the bicycle and get back home. and this is really if that was the worry in 1095. imagine what the panic going through brussels is right now. so, you know, i mean peace traditionally or your officials were always giving jobs to their friends. and given contracts to who was political lines them, we've broken the mold now with no middle eastern characters ascending 2 cases or 600000 years around to me. please apartments in brussels. i mean, this really does show you the best and worst of the european union if you've got

that kind of corruption on that kind of level where people just send you money like, like somebody might send your pizza, you know, then you know how long as you've been using god, i would argue that so we're looking at the end game is actually the itself and people are starting to panic because they are really for me. the next most important dates for ukraine is 2024 for so many reasons which you probably haven't got time to go into. but the main one is that for me that you will have its next real crisis with the lowest vote to turn out of the poles in its own european elections and the highest turn out the far right groups. and if we get to the situation with the european parliament as a majority for the 1st time ever the far right groups, then you've got to complete antithesis of what the european union stands. it's interesting that the, they, washington's name was to corral and united europe in favor of ukraine. exactly. the exact opposite is happening. it's the law of unintended consequences. this was

supposed to be these people in washington. you know, i mean i know our pain thinkers, you know, well the night europe, you know, well, chrysler economy will be dependent on us and will make them a, b r y in, in new cray. well, it's all in tatters now. exactly. yes, because you know, in my opinion, for the west and especially for washington, there was only one plane and there isn't a plan b the plan a we're going to. but i remember was to say the victoria, no such are never seen the never seen sanctions in russia. so do, russian economy will collapse and the people are going to the street and they will be president and it will be shared the, the russian territory in different us. exactly. wanted to do the no conservative a little bit in the united states, but it didn't happen. and there is another point that we are, again,

on the brink of an economy collapse. but we are in, in europe, i mean, on the brink of a military collapse. because if you look at the western media, that was a say that we have a ridiculous ammunition to resist. private us from working as a was, were against russia. so we can't do anything, we can do an economical, oregon, russia. we have no more ammunition to fight against russia. and exactly what centers got twitter that actually russia doesn't need any more guarantee of security because russia demilitarize in nato. actually, that was what they did in ukraine. jill, judging of, of this, you're going to do it. know again the 2nd army, the net, to kevin army, and those that demand towards them actually. yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. and that's why, again, we get always get this projection, you know, you're talking about loose nukes and all that. it's the west martin that has been

talking about the, the possible deployment of a nuclear weapon in this complex. exactly, for the reasons the exam you just said, is it not only is your grade being demilitarized nato, whatever, however, it was an alliance in the 1st place is being depleted as well that it is much more . yeah, and also i think the whole argument somebody makes very well a is a very good example of just how much b s we are being fed by major in the way about russia being our enemy. if russia was really our enemy, do you think you'd have this depletion of military stock so quick and so rapidly as it, as it was notes? it's, it's fake or she is not intimate, but it's an excuse me, is a convenient enemy for so many political agendas on launch lee to forward the, the, the, the ambitions of the year when you know a nature the nature is, you know, you talk about the nukes and nature for me, you know. ready talk about nukes is just that it's only ever going to be talk and i

think everybody's waking up this reality that nature. ready seems apparently to gain some credibility and i lost his identity before ukraine on people at macro were making these ridiculous comments about it being brain dead. you know, but it seems to gain a certain amounts of kudos amongst many westerners, but is a rescue. i would say among the elite, this is an elite agenda here. okay. all right, so i'm going to jump in here. we're gonna go to a hard break. and after the heart rate will continue our discussion on some real new stay with ah ah, by the middle of the 19th century, practically the whole of india had been under the rule of the british empire. the

colonial authorities had imposed that heavy death bringing the people into poverty and were exporting natural resources. and moreover, these authorities absolutely had no consideration for the traditions of the local population, treating them like 2nd class citizens. the british were showing signs of disrespect even to those who cooperated with them. the fact of ignoring the religious beliefs of the hindus led the mutiny embassy boys, mercenary soldiers, serving under the british crown. rebellion began on the 10th of may 1857 in the garrison town of may river, north of india. in the form of a mutiny. the rebels quickly took over daily. the heroic resistance of the indian people lasted for one and a half years. however, the forces were not equal. the colonial authorities dealt with the rebels cruelly thine slaves the boys were tied to the mouth of the cannon and were shot right through their bodies for the amusement of the public. these type of execution was

called the devils when the obliteration of the mutiny resulted in the death of 800000 inhabitants of india. however, the british empire never broke. the free spirit of the indians and their will are resisted with joggers archipelago roma that she goes to san diego garcia, the largest island in the archipelago is now the location of a very large u. s. military base. you can go from med, geez, i to the u. s. government to make a military base and just deported or douglas and people from their country. so they called returned back on the island. no, but we are fighting. that's why i'm real fighting for the right. so i, we do not consider the right to self determination actually applies to the trickle

. since i don't the question of self determination, the legal advice we have received is actually the trickle. since we're not and all not a people for me, it's time to move on and see what we can do. a full attend. the said community to return back home. there is no support from the united nation. i commission african united nish. i don't care about chug or send people ah, welcome back to cross not we're all things are considered. i'm funeral. well, this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news. ah, it's continue the conversation here. i would argue the dilemma that really faces the west is how they have framed this conflict. when lose. ok.

and that is fundamentally wrong if you want the conflict to come to an end. if they were to take the approach, which i think would be an appropriate approach, because it would talk about a pan european security including russia. but know they've taken the wrong path when lose, they should be that the way out of this for everybody is in talk about peace. and if you talk about peace, then you find everyone's place in it. and they refused to do that particularly low walking thinkers. dalton burke, he cannot get there. ok, you listen to him and he sounds, gets, are running. you know, nato is in crane but not in the conflict and all this other non no reporter with his worth. his or her salt is ever ask him a hard question. but the question is, why aren't you talking about piece of, you know, and that the problem isn't it went to foreigners were the could have helped ukraine, you know, maybe to, to make. you can fight a little bit longer,

that it was supposed to do. but they go so far and to spend all low so, so much money that of course, the defeat of ukraine, which is my, in my opinion, inevitable that if it of ukraine would be the defeat of nato. and actually, i can't answer your question because i don't know when natal, because not a question of kiff anymore. it's question of washington, this question of, of nato, when they to will be tired and also exhausted and asked to stop the war again. russia, because what we look at in russia know that the russian government is ready to have a long war. they're ready to do it. it's clear, then you would put in a set it in self. so and, but the said as soon as you want to talk to, to start negotiating, we are ready. but of course, because you make us invest more in this war, we will take more part of you credit. because if you remember the 1st a fresh, i was about 30000 square kilometers of the part of the bus. it didn't control

knows it took under a 1000 a square kilometers. and the best of his already took as a cremeans ticker, is already we ask, and somebody ask, but what about odessa? enchanting of and said it's depend on the local population. so for the russian, as long as you put them to go to, to continue to invest more in this country, they would take more part of the crane. so if the, if the west one to, to save something from ukraine, it has to with no, maybe they could, they could avoid the, that, that the russia, at least, we'll pick this up. because in my opinion, physician, a government taking odessa is one of the priority, and it would maybe, maybe text one, your mo, but they will take odessa, anybody, but i would even, i would even say cargo as well or yes of. yeah. but, but heck of it for a month by and there is not up for anybody but, or this i, you know, in my opinion, it's a positive. so you want to say from russia, i mean to, to,

to keep this assets, which is very important because it's a, it's a, it's on the, on the black. see i, on the las mario pulls a lot belgium's can. it is a low as i would lose, as of course, nikolai, and soon in the village or this, or for nato, for you quantity and a whole. so, but if they want to settle this from russia, it's time to negotiate. stand to demilitarize is do, did not the side that you bring up the word negotiations. martin unfair. you came across the multiple interviews that frau merkel gave to german media and it confirms everything the 3 of us believe all along is that the germans, the french, they were never committed to a peace process. what was called mens ok. so given what we've all said here already today, why would the russians negotiate with any of these people? they've been proven to be complicit? is m i years

a and i have talked about personally i had when we met in saint petersburg is that russia is going to determine its own security guarantees because there's no one to negotiate with. because russia isn't going to want to do this in 5 years. or 10 years time, all over again, this, the outcome of this conflict with russia will determine will be definitive mark. and russia is glaring the long game as of it is absolutely right. you know, we're talking about yours, but we're looking at the merkel interview and, and the reason for admission by her that there was nothing genuine on the european union side. you know, i think it was pretty shocking. a lot of people, i mean, many people in europe would be shocked by that because there is this default setting of so many european stuff. you know, the west with basically, you know, good guys and, and in a while, the gone and all the jungle or whatever, you call it a. with that we showed our colors that makes as you quite right. you said that

makes negotiation like 10 times harder and the stakes raised 10 times higher. so whatever russia would want, ultimately, you know, it makes it so much further away. i think the european union knows nothing that you just know that they know that term doesn't negotiate with pitching. will be very hard because of our fault, not because of his particular idea about a piece of the system. but the european europeans don't want peace. they don't want to give peace a chance to coin the phrase, i think they believe they can stick it out in the longer term. but look at the depletion of stocks. look at the money that's being given to, to ukraine, which is being what use all the time. but only biden's going to get his military aid approve. and even if he did, how wrong we got, how long can we, can we bail out the ukraine? when, if we look at the possibility of a change of government and america company as simon, the republicans getting in every indication, we're not gonna spend the same amount of money. so when russia looks at that dynamic, over 24 months, which is a very short period of time, you know,

everything seems to be snapshot against the west. but you know, america keeps winning. so this before marriage keeps coming out is the winner. you know, it's just go these natural gas deals which are piling up. it's got it member states individual exactly. on the european union. exactly where the americans want them divided more devices than ever used falling apart. this is a dream for by a nice lot of people the way to the bank, isn't it? yeah, but i mean, it's a double edged sword, isn't it? because of course the u. s. is winning. i mean, it's really going to be crazy because you have a bite. the administration that have at least want to appear to be anti fossil fuel . but at the same time, it is the big, it is the biggest booster of it because it's making so much money in europe. but as a result, europe, the productivity goes down the road. i'll know we've got, you know, we talked about the meltdown which happening right now. we need is

a marshall plan. that's what we need the americans to do. this is your opinions because that's where we're heading to the european union. a load, eastern european countries like pollen to leave at the expense of the german, french, italian taxpayers. and it's almost over a even don't know if i have a understand that they'll know destroying the german economy and deliver thanks to the german economy on the higher level that said the serve to live actually because of i guess the, your printer phones for poland. it's about 3 percent of g, d, p, the g d p. so it's mintz. the only a, the part of the growing economy in, in poland is because we send them some money from the french taxpayers from the german taxpayers. but we can do that for the german, but because they used to have a strong industry. and we do that because

a such an over in the country like france could survive by boeing at low rates, thanks to those from europe. but because it is a solution assets, we have no more from earl and we can't take credit, a low rates. i'm used to do well, if you bring up a good point because martin, you know, in the mainstream media likes to look at maps that likes graphics, you know, like flying playing the member of the gulf war and all that. ok. but it brings up the most germane. boeing. i mean you, you can, you can't print money to win this conflict. you can't. ok, because what you're doing is going and europe's debt obligations are extraordinary . in the u. s. is catching up. you can't win a conflict just by printing money here. and this is, you know, this is one of the things that i've been focusing on less on the military. i'm not a military expert, but any ukraine will turn into a failed state before there is a,

an outcome, a definitive military outcome on the battlefield in europe is boeing a pace right behind ukraine? it's amazing how europe is the ukranian ization of europe. martin, like to touch on the millsboro. i can't help looking at them. it's just because all i use corruption, you know, when you know western governments dream of the opportunity to illegally subsidize the military, they can't do it in peace time because there are rules against that. but in, in war, you know, we tend to overlook that. and what's going on is biter is making 2 or 3 american honest manufactures, you know, the directs us multi billionaire, the buying real estate in the bahamas faster than you can say get the carry on. but you know what we're looking at now is corruption. it's corruption, it's just expanding beyond any anybody's understanding of it. and when we look at military spending, we see corruption on a grand scale. i'm wondering whether,

how this ends, you know, for me and ukraine is a monster close war. they see it as the leads which represents less than one percent in ukraine and their missions, their ideas about her originally. so they're not really that concerned about who keeps control because they're concerned about their own personal wealth and lifestyles that they can actually sustain. and, and so it's a one percent versus no 9 percent scenario. and most people in the western understand, i don't want to touch on that because it's the same elitist idea in brussels as well. you know, people are thinking about the loan longevity of the, of these amazing jobs they hold in the european parliament, european commission. but hold onto your heart. we've got 5 years of macro the most . not just why fi s e you federalists, we had, and my predictions i'm going to go on the record. he is the best candidate, the most likely candidate for european commission or european council president in 2029 long way away. but that's,

this is where we're heading. exactly. and in the last 30 seconds, go ahead. no, i don't. in my opinion, russia will one, these were the only question. it's to know, i mean, this war against nato. and the only question that will it will it to one on the 1st on the economy. cool point of view under me terry point of you, this is my is my only question. i and i can't answer no, but of course risha will win because the time is working for risha. yeah, i mean, when i was a few months ago, i think martin, i asked you about who's got the clocks and who's got to talking. you told me, bo, i had asked you whether guess it's a week that and they all said the same thing. i'm sure you weren't colluding with them. but i think that you know, this, this whole western now false narrative, like russia gave weapons of mass destruction. the hunter biden laptop. why people believe this one you grain story, when all the others were lives is a mystery to me or i gentlemen, that's all the time we have want to take my guessing marrakech and here in moscow.

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doctor. they came in and looked and said, there is no medical reason why you're, you should be alive. you to find something to believe. john story is a story of ho story, victory and whatever i can do to help him, i would look forward to talking to you. oh, that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order get conflict with the 1st law. show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. at that point, obviously is to great trust, rather than fear i would like to take on various jobs with artificial intelligence . real, somebody with a robot must protect its own existence with

a, with the headline. so this our, at least one civilian is reported killed and several other wounded in the ukraine. i'll pull it back off with also this out. several years ago, many people were unaware if this reclusive unit was real or just a spine chilling, mis, but the launch of the special military operation in ukraine. so the web will propel to start them both in russia and beyond. i think i think there are through training through lagging the group and private medical company has become one of.