hey shin, as well as honing anti submarine tactics. a large array of various naval weapons are planned to be deployed in the live fire drills. the main stated goal by authorities is to strengthen naval cooperation between the russian federation and the people's republic of china. and also maintain peace and stability in the asia pacific, which are i time to catch up a peter and guess again in moments for the latest addition of cross talk. and today the panel is discussing how there be a united europe without russia. that's right. ahead with

ah, ah hello and welcome to cross doctor. all things are considered. i'm peter level american president abraham lincoln say, a house divided against itself cannot stand. this famous phrase appears to apply to europe today, when it comes to the conflict and ukraine and russia. can there be a united europe without russia? ah, discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess martin j and mary cash. he's an award winning journalist and

commentator, and here in moscow we have in monroe. he is the founder of the center of political strategic analysis, track pole. right, gentleman cross stack rules and effect. that means you can jump any time you want, and i would appreciate it when i start out with martin martin, i think we would all agree that at least formally, europe is united in seeing russia defeated in ukraine. ok when lose, but then you go down a level and well, what does that really mean? and that is really which plaguing the western world and their approach to this con, like because you have president the french president of crown you have the german chancellor schultz talking about vaguely talking about what has to happen after the conflict. they're not really do dwelling too much on the minutia how they get there . now, you know the baltic republics. your poll and you have the check republic their top, they're basically no talks, no contact, no future. and we, famously, we had

a deputy foreign minister in poland saying that russia doesn't even deserve security guarantees. so this is where we stand. i would say this is not a winning strategy for the west. no, it's not loading stress you. i mean, there's a great deal of somebody about in the dog search for the black cap in the black room on the black chair which doesn't exist. and i think that the problem we've got is that the more we look at the current conflict within a dimension of european unit, morrissey, division or division, which has been around for quite a long time. you know, we talk about old europe and new europe. you know, that's an argument with classic or by the bronze age. some people might say that us the comparison, we should meet with the unit, but you know more reason. i think it was don't room schools who said the interesting the old europe when he was referring to eastern european countries, supported the americanization of iraq in 2003 and, and the urban union of france and germany didn't. i think that's probably for most people sort of reference point, you know, that's where that's where there's

a real division within so called foreign policy. if we can imagine if we, if we will do your opinion and has a foreign policy of some sort. so we've got a real problem with the vision. most of the eastern european countries are going along with a plan which they don't really believe. and i'm not really worried about because i thinking much more, the longer term rushes and, you know, and also many of these countries. when they joined, the european union launched most of them joined in 2004, a couple of joy later in 2006. i was brussels and come with it. it was interesting that hardly any got any say whatsoever in terms of how the joint, whereas france, you know, had a real, a field day in there, in the french exception. a little the rules that it wanted. you know, on germany as well as we've been worried about franco german acts just for very long time, the expansion into it. and it was supposed to compromise that franco german actually still hasn't happened. the frank human actions is still the old argue,

is even more germanic whenever, you know, but a lot of these eastern european countries are really starting to wake up now about what the real deal is. most of them are atlanta says, most of them are much alliance america and tonight. so know very, very worried about the european union flexing its muscles and go to play one day having its own army and it's on foreign policy because god knows what would happen in ukraine if that were to happen. so, you know, there's so many of us on the horizon for us to look at so many political conundrums to tackle, but no one has the on. so these idea that these guys in the west know what's going to happen like this, the idea that they have an end game is notices that only have a present game. like i will argue little bit later that russia does have an end game. and that's what it makes it, that's the difference in this conflict. ok, exactly. so it's very interesting is if you look at the baltic, republics, you look at poland and i'm really glad that martin brought up the franco german

axis is that they're not appealing to paris. or to berlin, they're always appealing to washington. and this is say that russia divide, you know, this is what it's about your, it's the u. s. the u. s. keeps the franco german alliance on one side. and it pushes the new europe on another, which of course is inherently division. that actually the point is that the u. s. want to war, but not against russia, against or europe again. so your print economy is to say, is germany economy, because we are on the, on the, on the brink of an economy disaster. if you look at the travel reference from it to united states, he was supposed to get a drop in the us gas prices. it didn't get it, and the u. s. guys process is 4 times more expensive than the written one. it was supposed to dissuade joe biden from i, i brings planned to support the u. s. economy. it didn't get it. it was,

it just has the right to say that it was, it was all the fault of russia and ready me put in. and if you look out, you were talking about a short look at the trouble of shoulds in china is a complete ass. well, it didn't get anything and no, you have german, a comic because we are about to sell some chinese cars and you have a european union continuing to texas. it all decisions such as the end of the heat engine was the chinese as a 1st place for the production of any cars. so we are on the brink of then you can be just there because of stupid, you know, your pin decision and the, the most that you, you said the right word, stupidity ok. finish it. ok. because because it's a martin, i'm glad i didn't want. i didn't, hadn't thought about bringing up china here, but the chinese don't even take the european seriously. they see what the europeans have done is become supplicants to the us or the chinese, or say, well, we have to talk to washington to deal with the europeans. that's essentially what's

happening martin. this is this old argument of multilateral and violence. the chinese decided, well, i don't think it just, i don't think for a long time they've been, they've decided that they can work much more successfully talking to you members, stay on a one to one level, you know, because because again, this lack of critical to, for the, you know, the, is going through a crisis right now. if you look what just happened just the last few days in brussels. we've had the corruption scandal, which was really some shock waves, right across the continent. but the people that were in the most of the, the die hard federalists in brussels, who are worried about the long term stability of the project itself. you know, when i was in brussels, my right into the, in 1995 from boomers. the moment i arrived all i heard from people work in european commission on the dinner party circuit. was this worry this if they were present

this similar, this metaphor all for the eve being an old man on dutchman riding a bicycle. and the worry is that the old man falls off the bicycle and get back home. and this is really if that was the worry and 990 sly. imagine what the panic on through brussels is right now. so, you know, i mean peace traditionally or your officials were always giving jobs to the friends, give it contracts to who was politic lines them. we've broken the mold now with the middle east and taxes and sending suitcases are 600000 years around apartments in brussels. i mean, this really does show you the best and worst of the european union if you've got that kind of corruption on that kind of level where people just send you money like somebody might send you pizza, you know, then you know, how long has it been you to god, i would argue that some were looking at the game is actually the you itself and people are starting to panic because they are real. to me. the next most important

dates for ukraine is 2024. so many reasons you probably haven't got time to go into, but the main one is the me that you will have its next real crisis with the lowest vote to turn out. so the polls in it's on europe in elections. i'm the highest turn out to saw, right groups. and if we get to the situation with the european parliament as a majority for the 1st time ever the far right groups, then you've got to complete until this is what your opinion stands. it's interesting that the washington today was to corral and united europe in favor of ukraine, but exactly the exact opposite is happening. it's the law of unintended consequences . this was supposed to be these people in washington. you know, i mean, i low off came thinkers, you know, well, you know, europe will crush their economy. they'll be dependent on us and will make them be, are flat in ukraine. well, it's all in tatters now. exactly. yeah. yeah. because you know, in my opinion,

for the west and especially for washington, there was only one plane, a plan, a and there isn't a plan the, the plan a we're going to. but i remember was to say the victoria no such are never seen. never seen sanctions in russia, so do russian economy will collapse and the people are going to the street, not only will be president and it will be shared the, the russian territory in different us. exactly. wanted to do the no conservative or will be in the united states, but it didn't happen. and there is another point that we are, again, on the brink of an economic collapse. but we are in, in europe, i mean, on the brink of a military collapse. because if you look at the western media, there was a say that we have a ridiculous emissions reserves permit us from bay wedding, a say we're against russia. so we can't do anything we can do an economical. we're

in russia, we have no more mission to fight against russia and exactly what cisco twitter actually risha doesn't need any more guarantee of security because russia demilitarize in nato. actually that was what they did in ukraine till the end of this year. they're going to do it. no. again, the 2nd army, the net, to kevin army and the director. is them actually? yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. and that's why, again, we get always get this projection, you know, talking about loose nukes and all that. it's the west martin that has been talking about the, the possible deployment of a nuclear weapon in this complex exactly, for the reasons the exam, he just said, is it not only is ukraine being demilitarized nato, whatever. however, it was in the lines in the 1st place is being depleted as well. it is much more.

yeah, and also i think the whole argument somebody makes very well a is a very good example of just how much b s were being fed by major in the way about russia being our enemy. if russia was really our enemy, do you think you'd have this depletion of military stock so quick and so rapidly as it, as it was night? it's fate, which is not our enemy, but it's an excuse me, it's a convenient enemy for so many political agendas and largely to forward the, the, the ambitions of the european union. a nature nature is, you know, you talk about the nukes and nature for me. you know, this talk about nukes is just that it's only ever going to be talk and i think everybody's waking up this reality. but nature. ready seems apparently to gain some credibility. ready and i lost his identity before he crane or unstable at macro mac . we're making these ridiculous comments about being brain dead on it, but it seems to gain

a certain amounts of kudos amongst many westerners. but is mr. mitchell? i get a rep you, i would say among the elite, this is in the agenda here. okay. or a gentleman, i'm going to jump in here. we're gonna go to a hard break. and after the heart rate will continue our discussion on some real new stake with ah ah, ah ah,

i've actually found safety and embraces naziism as a joke. all of a sudden you're placing the position right. i can defend myself. now. i don't have to be afraid anymore. on one hand, i'm terrified that they're going to find that i'm jewish, but on the other, i think it's so far away. i distinctly remember my mom sitting me down one night and are saying, john, they're going to hurt one guy, punch me. hi my, here are some of the show now in the rest. in the punch is just start to fly and somebody shouted out, died, you boy died. and at that point i knew a brad and indian doctor, they came in and looked and there's no medical reason why you should be allowed to find something to believe. john story is a story of the story of victory and whatever i can do to help him. i wish you

a welcome back to cross up. we're all things are considered. i'm funeral about this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real ah it's continue the conversation here. i would argue the dilemma that really faces the west is how they have framed this conflict. when lose. ok, and that is fundamentally wrong. if you want the conflict to come to an end. if they were to take the approach, which i think would be an appropriate approach, because it would talk about a pan european security including russia, but know they've taken the wrong path when lose, they should be that the way out of this for everybody is in talk about peace,

and if you talk about peace, then you find everyone's place in it, and they refused to do that, particularly low octane think or salton berkey cannot get there. ok, you listen to him and he sounds, gets a running. yeah. nato is in crane, but not in the conflict and all this other non no reporter with his worth. his or her salt is ever ask him a hard question. but the question is, why aren't you talking about piece of, you know, the problem isn't it? went to foreigners, were the could have help ukraine, you know, maybe to, to make you quinn, fight a little bit longer, that it was supposed to do, but they go so far as to spend all the so, so much money that of course, the defeat of ukraine which is my, in my opinion, inevitable that if it of ukraine would be the defeat of nato. and actually, i can't answer to you question, because i don't know when nato, because not

a question of kiff anymore. it's question of washington. his question of nato. when natal will be tired and else exhausted and asked to stop the war again, russia, because what we look at in russia know that the russian government is ready to have a long war. they're ready to do it. it's not clear, then you would put in a set it in self. so and, but the said as soon as you want to talk to, to start negotiating, we are ready. but of course, because you make us invest more in this war, we will take more part of you credit. because if you remember, the 1st a war, m of rush, i was about 30000 square kilometers of the part of the bus. it didn't control knows, it took under a 1000 a square kilometers. and best of his already took as a cremeans ticker, is already we ask somebody, ask, but what about odessa? enchanting of and said it's depend on the local population. so for the russian,

as long as you put them to go to, to continue to invest more in this country, they would take more part of the crane. so if the, if the west one to, to save something from ukraine, it has to lead, know, maybe they could, they could avoid the, that the de russia at least, will take odessa. because, in my opinion, physician, a government taking odessa is one of the priority. and it would maybe maybe take one your mom, but they will take odessa, avery, but i would even, i would even say kirk of as well. oh yes of. yeah. but, but huck of it. so if my payment by him or is not up for anybody but or this i, you know, in my opinion, it's a positive. so you want to saying from russia, i mean to, to, to keep this i said, which is very important because it's a, it's a, it's on the, on the black c i o. the last mario, pals, a lot. bedrooms can, is a low as i will lose. of course, nikolai and sons in the villas are this up for, for natal, for you credit the and a whole. so,

but if they want to set this up from russia, it's time to negotiate. it's down to them and their eyes is trying to did they find that you bring up the word negotiations martin, i'm sure you came across the multiple interviews that are proud merkel. i gave to german media and it confirms everything the 3 of us of believe all along is that the germans, the french, they were never committed to a peace process. what was called mens ok. so given what we've all said here already today, why would the russians negotiate with any of these people? they've been proven to be complicit? is m on years a, and i have talked about personally, i had to when we met in saint petersburg, is it russians going to determine its own security guarantees? because there is no one to negotiate with. because russia isn't going to want to do this in 5 years or 10 years time, all over again. this,

the outcome of this conflict with russia will determine will be definitive mark. russia is playing the long game as over is absolutely right. you know, when talking about yours, but you know, looking at the merkel interview. ready and the reason admission by her there was nothing for genuine on the european union side, you know, i think it was pretty shocking. a lot of people, i mean many people in europe would be shocked by that because there is this default setting of so many european stuff. you know, the west with basically, you know, good guys and, and every time i was gone and all the jungle or whatever, you call it a, you know what we showed or was that makes as you go right. you said that makes negotiation like 10 times harder and the stakes raised 10 times higher. so whatever russia would want ultima k, you know, it makes it so much further away. and i think your opinion, most up in that usually does know that they know that the shading recruiting will be really hard because of our whole not because of his particular idea about

a piece piece. but the pin, the pin is don't want piece. they don't want to give peace a chance to coin that phrase. i think they believe that they can stick it out in the longer term. but look at the depletion of stocks. look at the money that's been given to the ukraine, which is being would use all the time. and i think biden's going to get his military aid approved. and even if he did, how wrong we go, how long can we, can we bail out the ukraine? when, if we look at the possibility of a change of government in america, the company, assigning republicans, getting in every indication, we're not going to spend the same amount of money. so when russia looks at that dynamic. ready over 24 months, which is a very short period of time. you know, everything seems to be snapshot against the west. well, you know, americans winning. so this before america keeps coming out is the winner. you know, it's just go all these natural gas deals which are piling up. it's got it member states individual exactly on the european union. so exactly where the americans

want them divided more devices than ever other use falling apart. this is a dream for by a nice lot of people. the way to the bank is money. yeah. but i mean, it's a double edged sword, isn't it? because of course the u. s. is winning. i mean, it's really quick because it's going to be crazy because you have a binding ministration that have at least wants to appear to be anti fossil fuel. but at the same time, it is the big, it is the biggest booster of it because it's making so much money in europe. but as a result, europe see productivity goes down. we've got, you know, we had talked about economic meltdown. what's happening right now? what we need is a marshall plan. that's what we need americans to do. this is not in europeans, because that's where we have a, the open union, a load, eastern european countries like poland to leave at the expense of the german, french, italian taxpayers. and it's almost over, i even don't know if

a chava understand that they'll know destroying the german economy and the lever, thanks to germany, going to be on the higher level that said the serve to live actually because of, i guess the, your printer phones for poland it's about 3 percent of g, d, p, the poly g d p. so it's mintz. the only a, the part of the growing economy in, in poland is because we send them some money from the french taxpayers from the german taxpayers. but we can do that for the german, but because they used to have a strong industry. and we do that because of a such an over in the country like france could survive by burring at low rates, thanks to the strong euro. but because we use a solution assets, we have no more strong url and we can't take credit, a low rates. i'm used to do well, if you bring up a good point because martin,

you know, in the mainstream media likes to look at maps that likes graphics, you know, like flying playing the member of the gulf war and all that. ok. but it brings up the most jermaine calling. i mean, you, you can, you can't print money to win this conflict. you can ok, because when you're doing is going and europe's debt obligations are extraordinary . in the u. s. is catching up. you can't win a conflict just by printing money here. and this is, you know, this is one of the things that i've been focusing on less on the military. i'm military experts, but i mean it, ukraine will turn into a failed state before there is a, an outcome definitive military outcome on the battlefield in europe is borrowing a pace right behind ukraine. it's amazing how europe is be, it's the ukranian ization of europe. martin, you know,

you don't like to touch on the ministry aspect, but i, you know, i can't help looking at the mid just because all i see is corruption. you know, when you know western governments dream of the opportunity to illegally subsidize the military, they can't do it in peacetime because of what your rules against that. but in, in war, you know, we tend to overlook that. and what's going on is biter is making 2 or 3 american arms manufacturers. you know, the directs us multi billionaire, the buying real estate in the bahamas saucer. then you can say get the carry on, but you know what we're looking at now is corruption. it's corruption, it's just expanding beyond any anybody's understanding of it. and when we look at military spending, we see see corruption on a grand scale. i'm wondering whether, how this ends, you know, for me and ukraine is much a close war. they see it as the leads which represents less than one percent in ukraine and them missions their ideas about how rich themselves, they're not really that concerned about who keeps control of the claim. they're concerned about their own personal wealth and the lifestyles that they can actually

sustain. and, and so it's a one percent versus 9 percent scenario. and most people in the west and understand, i don't want to touch on that because it's the same elitist idea in brussels. as well, you know, people are thinking about the lonesome longevity of the, of these amazing jumps. they hold in the europe in europe and commission, but hold on your hat. we've got 5 years of macro. the most naughtiest wacky s e u federalists we've had and my predictions i'm going to go on the record. he is the best candidate, the most likely candidate for european commission or european council president in 2029 law way away. but that's just where we're heading. the end of the last 30 seconds. go ahead. no, i don't, in my opinion, russia, we want this war. the only question, it's to know, i mean this war against nato. and the only question that will, it will, it won't, on the 1st, on the economy call point of view under military point of view. this is my only

question. i and i can't answer no, but of course risha will win because the time is working for risha. yeah, i mean, when i was a few months ago, i think martin, i asked you who's got the cox and who's got to talking. you told me both. i had asked you whether guess it's a week that and they all said the same thing. i'm sure you weren't colluding with them. but i think that you know, this, this whole western now false narrative, like russia gave weapons of mass destruction, the hunter, biting laptop. why people believe this one you great story when all the others were lies is a mystery to me or i gentlemen, that's all the time we have want to take my guessing marrakech and here in mosque i want to thank you for watching is here to see you next time, remember, ah, ah,

a money, a money, a money in my name, with the

american president abraham lincoln say, a house divided against itself cannot stand. this famous phrase appears to look like a europe today when it comes to the conflict in ukraine and russia. can there be a united europe without a at least 2 civilians are killed and several more wounded then a ukrainian artillery attack on a hospital in this city all done yet all to coming up in the program. today. india becomes the number one importer of brushing crude oil in marked contrast to the e. u, which has cut purchase is following up price count on the commodity. and there's not modeling a similar limit on russian natural gas this winter. and the french government staunchly condemns israel's decision to the ports at palestinian human rights activists.