will be no return on investment for american taxpayers. it will not be repaid. well last, so for me to like cost. so who is up next unit? o'neill will be here. the studio, the hour i'm run home. i'll be with you all a 1st class writing with ah, is your media reflection of reality? in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way? where are you being led to somewhere? which direction? what is true?

what is faith in the world corrupted? you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah, with hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . russia in the west survived the cold war because both recognized and practice, the concept of indivisibility of security. one country should not attempt to attain security at the expense of another country. this is exactly what the west has done against russia to the point of claiming russia has no right to any security

guarantees. the cross talking security guarantees, i'm joined by my guess, the boyish mileage in washington. he's a blogger, and column is in quebec. we have dmitri last caught us, he is a lawyer and freelance journalist and, and word thing we cross to anthony webber. he is an independent political commentator. alright gentlemen, cross talk roles and effect. that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciated the boy should let me go to you 1st and the imperial city. this idea of indivisibility of security has been quite last, ever since the end of the cold war, because it was the hallmark of the helsinki process. and they tow is just thrown that into the wind and i would say that speed and that is the reason the result is the conflict that we have in ukraine, though no one in the west seems to want to use that logic, but it was the west stand the soviet union that came up with that logic that kept

the peace in europe during the cold war. so what are they missing? go ahead and the butcher. well this you are quite correct that this was entered, the call ended up preventing the cold war from turning hot. unfortunately, it was red con, from history in the ninety's, amid this whole. and it's history triumphalism that, that became the ideology this year in washington. and the helsinki process basically became a conveyor belt for the us to brow beat, other countries into doing it, speeding. and this doctrine that wasn't quite so clearly formulated. but they basically said that the only sovereign truly sovereign country in the world is the us. and everybody else has to do what they're told, or else. and we saw what or else men to 1999. when nato proceeded to attack you, then you was flavio without any sort of break into you went charter, its own charter to health. think you charter all imaginable charters. it was privy

to and it that was just basically ok. we did it because we wanted to and what are you going to do about it? and you know, 23 years later we are, we are, we are as so it's one of those obviously none of us would have happened had the west abided by the treaties to decide. but that has really never been the case, has it to me treat me. it was a few days ago that the german chancellor came out and said that, you know, there has to be new security guarantees for europe after the conflict ends in ukraine, which russia, obviously in his mind, will lose which he's obviously wrong. but it's really kind of befuddled me and is that the, does the german chancello that those low security guarantees were in place before nato expanded? i mean it's, there is this sense of, of forgetting history. it's really extraordinary how the german chancellor could

say something like that. your thoughts, dimitri? well, we have an overwhelming tendency in the west to have a shorter non existent historical memory. and we tend to choose the date of the starting point for history. that is most convenient to the narrative of the u. s. hedge among the united states. government and the fact of the matter is that it has been eminently well established by the historical record. in fact, it's beyond reasonable dispute. not only that europe signed onto the, know the notion of indivisible security and recognized that the insecurity of one state affects all others within the european region. something we're seeing today and very vivid and painful in a very, very painful way. but it's also absolutely clear from a historical perspective that the leaders of the soviet union and russia received assurances that there would be no expansion eastward of nato. and there were repeated warnings from luminaries across the, the west, including george kennan, including henry kissinger, including even william burns,

the current director of the ca, that across the political spectrum and russia, there was antipathy, entirely understandable, and typically towards nato expansion. that there had been assurances given that the breaking of those assurances would have potentially catastrophic consequences for europe and west relationships with russia. and we simply conveniently forgot all of that. because the ice days decided that its status as the world sole superpower was at risk. and that it needed to take measures to weaken russia and then beyond that to weaken what it seems to regard as its prime competitor, china. well, you, anthony, almost exactly. one year ago, russia sent to nato and to washington, to note ultimatums, whatever you want to call them about, you know, it's, you know, basically they're up against the wall and you have to listen to it because the security architecture is collapse. or that is that be something that could be possibly entertained now, maybe because we have mixed voices in europe. you know,

there's no relationship, no future with russia. then mccrory here got criticized for it. said there has to be security guarantees. your thoughts, anthony? well, the problem is, sir, there's a huge amounts of distrust which has been caused by what's happened because has been rightly side from the 19 ninety's when the cobra ended. and they were these assurances, but there wouldn't be an expansion of nice or even though they weren't in written format. but the problem is since the end of the cold pool, ah, they chose early, massively expanded it, especially since the town of the century are. so it's been a complete our sense of distrust there because why should are the need russia, i trust, and a p. p. gland, nato. but i yourself to look at the situation office, see any country needs to have some security. and the united states wanted

security where may have the cuban missile crisis. ready and you have to look at what are the former president gorbachev said, and because he was the architects with our agreements between the old soviet union and have a nice that. and he said a, you may not humiliate a country and expect prayer to be no consequences or the cause. there are consequences, good mismatch, they pima humiliates the russia, which is what's been happening now. but it's as though these agreements we had, ah, the helsinki, the, the, the structures we have in place to our bridges tension. i have been totally ignored, as, as you've said. and the voice is for peace, are shut down and are one of the objectives of nation,

or nato is c supposed to be, to protect freedom. but there's a freedom in the, in the west at the moment. it's about our free and open debate each. well, this whole issue, and this is really impressive night, i countryside conflicts with russia, ukraine, and it really isn't. so we all have to look at our interest in the countries points . again, there's no strategic tool, other interest in being involved in this conflicts. well, yeah, the boy should, i mean, if there are going to be relations and you're going to, it's going to have to be mutual. that's not a message. it's coming out of european capitals. it's a, it's a to our way or the highway. i mean, it's really extraordinary that they don't reflect upon how we got here. they don't want to do that and, and it has been pointed out, they choose their dates. ok, right, well that the thing about europe and capital is, is that i see

a lot of rhetoric coming out of there, but not a lot of agency. essentially, micron and sholtes and others talk a big game. but they do what they're told at the end of the day. now, they're being told that by, you know, i choose to believe that it's not joe biden because that would be even more humiliating than the alternative. but the. ringback probably the collective west is twofold. one they can't under they wouldn't recognize their own interests if they, you know, literally fell in their lap. that's one and 2, they're not agreement capable. there is a very clumsy but wonderful, rushing the ologist them. that literally translates it's not agreement capable. these are to people you cannot make deals with because and this is something that collective wes, it's forgotten and i'll put it in terms of the pop culture terms that everybody can understand. if, if your method of dealing with people is to say i'm altering the deal, pray i do not alter it further. you are a villain in this story, not

a good guy. so, you know, this is, this is a bit of self reflection that needed to be done in the west, and i don't see it an effect anywhere. i think microns passing thought about giving security guarantees to russia, which is of about a year too late. is the closest it's come to it and he's been viciously attacked over that. and yet, you know, he's been centuries at home and band, any sort of criticism as, as you know, russian propaganda saying what sholtes in germany and they entertain these fantasies that you know, once russia will lose things, will go back to, to the way they were before well, i've got a good news for them. first of all, russia not going to lose. and secondly, nothing is ever going to be like, as it was before, no matter what the outcome of this current conflict, which is that's not how these things work. yeah, and dmitri in fresh is not granted security guarantees, it will create its own. that's what the west doesn't understand. dmitri, again, i want to come back to the point we meet at the outset about the historical amnesia

from which we seem to suffer in the last. we forget that the soviet union, according to the 1993 study of the russian academy of sciences, suffered some estimated 27000000 losses in the 1st world war the 2nd world. and that included approximately $9000000.00 military deaths. of course, the, these horrific casualties were inflicted upon the soviet union in the 2nd world war by an aggressive nazi regime emanating from germany. and i think, well, dmitri demetrius did appoint a collective west minus the u. k. at the time. it's really interesting. ok, because you had the entire european land mass. ok. joining nazi germany. keep going . i'm sorry to interrupt. well, obviously this is a historical trauma of tremendous proportions. i mean these losses that the soviet union sustained were vastly in excess of those of the axis powers. the united

kingdom, the united states and canada combined. and yet we seem not to understand that this historical trauma affects the perspective on of the russian people and the russian government with respect to security, particularly under western border. and in lesson until we come to grips without reality, we are going to be at risk of interminable conflict, military conflict with potentially disastrous consequences because of the risk of nuclear nuclear and jimmy 3, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break gentleman, and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on security guarantees. stay with our team with the joggers archipelago home that she goes to san diego garcia, the largest island in the archipelago is now the location of a very large u. s. military base. you can go from med div i to the u. s.

government to make a re base and just deported all of the people from their country so they can return back on the island. no, but we are fighting. that's why i'm fat. we'll fighting for the right. so i. c we do not consider that the right to self determination actually applies to the trickle seems i don't the question, no self determination. the legal advice we have received is actually logical. since we're not and all not a people for me, it's time to move on and see what we can do all the time. the said community to return back home. there is no us to support from the nomination type mission, african united, michelle, you don't care about chug or send people ah

ah, watching it was a shag now shorter one day and i'm not going to stay locked with a national z. m. knowing that she's shyly yours is my dear bye. when you sit on like a bug, that might be a day

a welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter. well, to remind you we're discussing security guarantees. ah, let's go back to anthony and where things are, you know, it's interesting that in the mainstream it's her bowden to talk about what we're talking about on this program here. and one of the things it's not talked about is that a european security architecture would not only excluded russia, but was excluded russian was against russia. and this is something that if we're going to have peace in europe, has to be rectified. and given the voices that we're hearing in europe and in obviously, washington in london, we have all very long way to go. maybe a generational issue. go ahead anthony. yes, us, that's very true. but we got to recognize what the real agenda is here and totals

he got on to the american color tissue are sounded hot for a well when she said the ukraine war is all about regime change in russia. and it's not really about anything else. and it's about our guidelines vested interest, that late are too big about changes so that they get that he come to russia ah, plays the game and the in the guy. but the sway, i know we need to look at what sub present pacing said in to thousands about our euro. because he said russia is passive european culture. and i cannot imagine my own country in isolation from europe and what we often call lee civilized worlds. so it is hard for me to visualize nathan as an enemy. so i don't think russia ever wanted a comb breaks or nature as an enemy. but we go hinton powers,

who have been trying to bring about this tongue facts between certain countries in the west and russia. i'm sorry, is interesting, observed me not that long ago that the united kingdom members of the role of family was visiting russia and improving relations between the cad roster. and now we have a situation where the former prime minister of the united kingdom brought us johnson is actively war mongering. encouraging the sunday of mo weapons and the mo, aids to the bustle, bliss packs of president said, i'm skis are ukraine. i and the u. k. and certain other countries have go blood on their hands because a lot of the weapons which had been supplied to the crime that ended up they used to bomb the civilians, as well as all a military casualties as well. but as he rightly said, we've got

a problem that the, the went straight major in the west. the guy as well. he's not on debate. so the public does not actually know the truth. that was the guy on sort of bitter the site. because now you're supposed to have objects of securing peace for managing co operation and guarding for you to night i was doing none of the crime and europe as a whole. well the boy, i mean stealth and birth makes it very existential. we must win. russia must be defeated. well, what happens or in the reverse happens there by ship. how, how does nato survive? this, which i'm rubbing my hands with glee because it's a failed alliance. it's being proven. well nato's mission and according to its 1st secretary general, who was a british peer, unlike suttonberg,

who's an absolute nbc said that the mission of the alliance was to keep the americans in the russians out in the germans down. and it has been doing that. and it has been benefits doing that ever since. the problem is that you cannot have european security without russia. you cannot have, you know, europe with, with germany suppressed. and obviously, american tutelage is turning out to be not really a blessing of liberty that everybody thought it would be. nato is a fail alliance. if, if there is any justice in the world, it needs to be dissolved. it has manifestly served the opposite purpose of its official one. again, lord, his mace definition worked out much better in that respect. but again, not to the interest of the people involved. i would argue that goldenberg's in his infinite stupidity and i'm sorry, i don't have a respect for this man. he basically admitted that nato is

a party to the conflict. he's actually insisting. right? so, you know, if you, if you're not involved in the war, how can you win or lose? and if you are involved in more than welcome to the consequences, one big issue is that what we've discussed before is that it's not just historically many amnesia. it is, it is a very deliberate destruction of historical memory to the point where most people in the west have this vision of world war 2, as seen on the silver screen and spielberg movies where the soviet union doesn't even exist. right? and unfortunately, i've, i've been saying for the past few years before this calamity happened upon us that, you know, give him another half a generation and they will have read conduct. the soviet union is actually responsible for the war and even the holocaust because that's where things were headed. well, no, no voice. i don't know if you've noticed. i'm a big fan of the world that war series that came up 1974. i think it was,

it's been completely erased from youtube. i think this one episode, and if wiped it because of what exactly what you said, because it would, it would make, well, well, keep the memory of the war. authentic memory. dmitri, i mean what, where nato is drawn a line in the sand. i mean, how does it survive when it loses in ukraine? it won't, it's great. ok. i find it in thinkable that nato will survive in any meeting before perhaps some rump of nato confined to a core of states and western europe might survive this disaster from a reputation perspective. but nato's in this, in a sort of existential crisis because it stated credibility on total victory and ukraine, which from a practical perspective is achievable. and you know, quite apart from that, nato's credibility, in any rational world would have taken a massive hit well before the commencement of the special military operation in february. because, for example, nato committed, you know,

extraordinary trillions of dollars of resources. apparently, the nexus of a trillion dollars to the war and the dentist in an over 20 year period was unable to taliban, who were armed with soviet era, small arms. nato in the name of human rights. and the doctrine of the responsibility protect doctrine which is abused shamelessly effectively destroyed libya, which was at that point in time. up until that point of time, the most prosperous state in africa, nato bombarded serbia and even to this very day, that problem hasn't been resolved. it's festering and there could be war in kosovo . so when you look across the spectrum of nato intervention, what you see is one failed state in one disaster after another. and on top of that, you have nato demanding clamoring stilton berg and others, that every natal member spend 2 percent of its g d, p on the military, whether there is a legitimate need for them to do so. and whether, even though there are pressing domestic issues, that every member of nato has to confront,

including poverty and an environmental and be environmental crisis currently confront, you know, anthony, and one of the things is very curious in this propaganda rich environment. that this isn't a lead to war it because if you look at polling, if you dig down, most people are interested in domestic issues here. but this isn't an elite agenda . yes, it definitely is a registered conference about the record of nights which should be one of failure. in fact, the one instance where they could have succeeded as son of a totally degrade debit with which i 26 been in afghans, shaban ride city cation standards for women. and so on a survey, because they did a deal with the taliban, no, never lost a major battle with the tyler barry so that he conveniently left afghanistan to get

enrolled in the crime lab. we have also sort of a wider picture here, and it's all very sad other people in the event. so controlling what is happening, but we have to g o best to are in all respects of countries feel involved in the crime should encourage our governments to exit from those policies . and oh, but that would be appeasement in munich. yeah, that's all you hear. it's all you hear and you know, you know, all of you, the people that say that don't even know what it means. ok, it's a slogan. it's simply a slogan. it's pretty good. and so you guys about the deal with the taliban. good. very piece. so is old. okay. well, yeah, well, i've got, you know, there bunch, i'm glad that afghanistan was brought up here because the ukraine is the new

griffith. ok. because afghanistan was a 20 year griff, now this is a new grift. it is the, the problem, the problem with this is that obvious, it's much bigger grid for the weapons manufacturers. except that they hoped that, you know, there was banks would actually get the job done in 3 to 6 months. they're the ones who are hoping for short, victorious war. and it hasn't been that the now they're facing the cold hard reality that their production rates cannot possibly compete with water in warfare. and also of galveston was a typical western expedition war. something that happened far away that didn't really impact anybody at home, aside from those poor souls who came back with p t s. d. this is having immediate consequences not just for, not just for europe, which is obviously directly impacted with, with the energy collapse. but even in the us, because the, you know, the bike and government tried blaming the gas prices on, on the conflict. so here's for the 1st time in god knows how many years,

certainly the wes, living memory, a conflict that's actually hitting home. however indirectly. and the population doesn't like it. and guess what the population doesn't get. it doesn't get a vote. it doesn't matter how hard they're they're put upon because nobody cares what they think. it's let them eat cake all the way down. and it's too absolutely destroying any sort of delusion that might be persisting in the west about some sort of, you know, government talk to people in democracy. let me jump in here to make sure the last 30 seconds go to you. how is the west going to accept defeat and ukraine? well, my great fear is that it won't. okay. seemed yeah, yeah, that speed is full speed ahead. they don't know how to deescalate. right now we're talking about sending patriot missiles to ukraine. every single reaction to a russian intervention in this theater of war is one of escalation. and i think at some point we, we as a people are gonna have to take matters into our own hands, get out into the street and demand that our governments finally engage in

a process of negotiation. and yet, yeah, a little bit of democracy wouldn't be a bad thing right now gentlemen, you know, exactly. yeah. i, yeah. well, you know that, that's the, one of the biggest casualties is, is democracy in listening to what people have to say. gentlemen, fascinating discussion. as all the time we have many thanks them i guess in washington, quebec, and wording. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here. darky. see you next time. remember, cross a

ha ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, my my, my name, my name with it. when i was wrong, when i just don't know you yes to see out this

becomes the answer to an engagement. it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we used to look for common ground. ah, another twist and the dispute between russia and the over and natural gas supplies as moscow risk falls to the west price cap by designating its own value for the commodity union. sometimes our colleagues partner surprised me with their unprofessional decisions. now they don't know how to get out of this position and are trying to regulate gas prices as well, with a massive glaze or wraps up a major data storage facility in the north african nation of morocco and made a series of x.